Using a non-mustang donor?

[METAL C6R]

Hello all,

New to the forum, For a few years now I have had the idea of building a Type 65 Coupe.
Originally I was planning on keeping this semi-true to the Daytona. and the general build of most coupes, Complete kit, ford small block, Tremec transmission, I was hoping that I could make this better than a Corvette for half the price. And with what research I have done I think that is completely do-able. If I skip the part about the new C7 having on-board telemetry with the Cosworth Toolbox.

However due to new ideas, friends, and the general philosophy of 'Why Not?' I am pondering using a 8.4L Viper V10 as the power plant. I have seen this done in the roadster but I haven't in a coupe yet. I know that this will require custom fitting everything but I am curious if people had tips or advice to help aid this process. If I can get my hands on a salvage Viper I think that this project is at least some what feasible. ( Still aiming for the Corvette Killer here )

What are your thoughts? concerns?

[wallace18]

Anything can be done with enough money and time.

[Jeff Kleiner]

You'll be sailing into uncharted waters! The hood will probably be your first point of interference. I'm not familiar with the dimensions or architecture of the Viper engine but when dealing with the Coupe even the taller deck height of a 351 creates hood issues---add the length of another pair of cylinders out the front and I suspect that will be compounded. BTW, the "Double Venom" Viper powered roadsters were built off of a Classic Roadster platform which has a stretched wheelbase thereby allowing for the longer engine. If you decide to do it be sure to keep us informed with lots of photos and a build thread!

Cheers,
Jeff

[METAL C6R]

No doubt. Luckily, I can place the engine mounts where I want (can) in this case so, I think the worse problem will be with the firewall/cockpit, though I am sure it's going to be both.
I have some experience laying fiber-glass/ carbon fiber. I think making a larger cowl for the engine wont be an issue (if necessary)
However, there will be quite a bit of frame modifications. Firewall, not to mention the transmission. I know currently some people are modifying the housing of the Tremec TKO to fit so there is no frame modifications. That is not the case here. I believe the Viper has a Tremec 6060 which is based of the 56 magnum which is larger than the TKO, So already there's issues.

I am not sure if I want to go the easy route with the complete coupe's suspension, or completely use a (salvage) donor viper. The benefit I would get using the Viper would be added track width and wider tires. Plus I can add fender flares which would add to the paint scheme I have for it. ( can't post pictures yet sadly... )

I just want to get as much of the grinding details down before I begin, create a build list, tie it with the step by step guide, and go to town. That way I don't have a project that takes a year or dies out before I get it done.
Even though I don't have that down just yet, the only thing preventing me from starting this today is space. I don't have a place where I can store and work on this project.

I will definitely keep a log of this project, hopefully to the 'T'. I know when I really get "going" in projects though, I tend to be disorganized.
Build thread is definitely something I want to do once I get this going. Especially if I run into a hiccup, which will happen, that way I can ask around and get other ideas of how to approach situations.

I guess the only good thing here is that I am not trying to put a Merlin in a '55. Though it has been done!

[tirod]

Added track width isn't feasible - it's limited to the fenderwell lip. As for a Viper, the Ford V10 is equally viable. And likely less expensive.

Yes, the use of a non-Mustang donor is completely feasible. The 351 motors are often sourced from trucks. IRS from other non-Mustang Fords. Using a Viper would be an interesting project. I would imagine that fabricating mounts for the drivetrain would be an exercise in welding skills, too. That sort of modification usually requires more than passing ability in the mechanical arts. Or - deep pockets to hire someone else's expertise.

And as Viper components are limited, the cost of acquisition will be higher due to competition from Viper owners repairing their vehicles. Whereas the whole point of a kit was to build a car for far less - even CS sourced run of the mill motors to build his creations. It wasn't about bespoke motors, that was the targeted focus of his efforts - that expensive, highly refined cars weren't necessary for the job. A copy of his competition built by a third party and cheap Detroit iron did the job.

I think that epitomizes the legend of the Cobra - which is sadly being dismissed as if it's too grubby to embrace.

[MPTech]

Unless you are wanting the challenge and uniqueness, a well built SBF, especially with supercharger setup, is more than enough to get the job done.
Aluminum block and heads are going to keep your weight down, and keep your Coupe advantage. If your plans are tracking, make sure to get Big Brakes and look into 17" or 18" lightweight wheels too.
Another option is using a well-built SBC. Aftermarket heads and cam will put you well above any street Vette.
A Viper drivetrain is probably going to push your build period well beyond the 1 year point with specialized, custom fabricated parts (thinking headers alone will be a challenge) and other complications.
Also the cost will be significantly more than a Ford or Chevy, and besides, NOTHING sounds like a Lopey V8!

Wish you luck with whatever you decide and keep us posted, we love new build threads (and PICTURES).

[METAL C6R]

Tirod,

I still want to do this cheap that is why I am looking into salvage totaled vipers. Yes there is a competition for those but that is one I am willing to do (within reason say $7-10k) And no, my pockets aren't deep. Hell, I am looking to buy a place so I can store and work on this project. It is literally the only thing holding me back. So again, cheapness is a great thing in my case don't get me wrong. I don't plan on spending the $40,000 for a crate 8.4L v10, unless I win the lottery. And that's not happening considering I don't buy tickets...

when you say fender well lip, do you mean clearance issues with a wider tire, or that the fender well can't house a wider track width?

Whereas the whole point of a kit was to build a car for far less - even CS sourced run of the mill motors to build his creations. It wasn't about bespoke motors, that was the targeted focus of his efforts - that expensive, highly refined cars weren't necessary for the job. A copy of his competition built by a third party and cheap Detroit iron did the job.
I think that epitomizes the legend of the Cobra - which is sadly being dismissed as if it's too grubby to embrace.

Aside from extra gadgets and electronic gizmos, I am still aiming for ~40k. roughly half the price of the c6z06, and a third of the price of my real target, the viper gts and zr1 let alone the new c7 zo6.
From my understanding, Shelby didn't like the Daytona initially, Peter Brock designed it on the garage floor, used a wrecked cobra chassis to build it. Shelby thought it was ugly, they raced them both and the Daytona beat the Cobra by 2 seconds per lap at their test track and that changed his mind about it. due to the rules of the FIA at the time it still counted as a cobra because it was the same chassis.

I am not trying to say that sbf or sbc isn't good enough, I am just up for the challenge. I haven't seen anything like this and I believe it can be done. Hell, this idea is a cheaper alternative to what I was thinking about a year ago with nelson racing engine's 428 series. and a tremec t56 magnum

MPTech,
Yea, I do plan on tracking this, sometimes. I am not sure if I want to get this into a series though.
I know that I am not gaining much performance to the added weight that I am taking on. Though it's more of a challenge. and I accept this. I would like to use the brakes and tires of cars I am trying to beat that is why I am contemplating the donor. The total tread width of a C6ZR1 is over 4' the closer I can match that, the better.

I do love the sound of a lopey V8, though I am a bit odd in the case that my favorite engine sound isn't American. absolute favorite sound is the 1986 Group B Audit Quattro S1. In-line 5. I guess that's what pushed me towards the Viper idea.

[6t8dart]

The viper engine is basically a 360 v8 with two extra cylinders added on, dimensionally it's about a typical small block width, but it is significantly longer. You also have to deal with the sound. The early vipers with side pipes sounded like UPS trucks because you had two 5 cyl engines spitting out the pipes. The later under body exhaust made them sound a little better. On top of it all, headers would be a completely custom affair.

If you want to stick with Mopar, try a 6.4L Hemi. Or even a Chevy LS engine if the brand does not matter.

[CraigS]

The stock coupe body will easily allow 315x17s on the front and 335x17s on the back

[METAL C6R]

Update:

kind of going day to day now looking for a place... so research on the project has been halted substantially.
My online searches for engine dimensions proved futile. Therefore, I contacted Frog Jones at Mopar Pro shop. ( not planning on buying from there, as that is way out of my price point. )
He provided me with engine Dimensions of the V10. I believe I will only have to shift the engine back a little.

Compared with a Coyote. ( 8.4L : 5.0L ) correct me if I am wrong on this just grabbing these from a website f150hub.com, Coyote Dimensions
33.39" : 24.62" - Back of block to belt plane - Roughly ~ 7.3" longer
24.88" : 29.05" - Valve cover width
27.56" : 28.21" - Stock exhaust manifolds
19.09" : 18.95" - Crank to top of intake
7.680" : 9.940" - Crank to bottom of oil pan
625lbs : 430lbs - Weight
600 : 360(412) - Ponies - 0.96 /lb : 0.84(0.96) /lb
560 : 380(390) - Torque - 0.90 /lb : 0.88(0.91) /lb Side note; is torque per pound's units just ft? (lb*ft/lb) weird....

Conclusion: move engine back as far as possible. It will help with clearances for the belt, and air intakes. It will also help center the balance of the car with the additional 200 lbs in the front.
I don't know the dimensions of the coupe's frame just yet, but putting all bias aside ( trying to at least ), it seems feasible. Placement and custom engine mounts I think are all that is going to get in my way.

[HCP 65 COUPE]

Metal C6r

I think the overall length is going to be your down fall the cross tube on the lower frame of the coupe is only about 2in away from the crank pulley on my 351w and that has
the short water pump pulley setup from a 94 Mustang the other road block I think will be a very expensive custom exhaust. While both can be changed and customized I think
The viper engine is just to darn long without major chassis and body changes. My suggestion if you want to do this on the cheap find an old rotted out or wrecked fox or sn95 mustang
on craigslist and build up a stock based 302 with a turbo, throw big injectors in it and a good custom tune with the right turbo setup 500-600hp is doable on a stock bottom end.

Plus if you try to move the engine back the drive shaft will be 4 inches long The t56 is a very long tranny and you would need minimum IRS just to have a driveline angle that could work.
plus the IRS adds a lot of cost and durability issues at least with big power.

Everything you would need comes with a fox mustang and they can be had for next to nothing if you look around enough. Hell I have a 95 mustang out back right now I'll sell you cheap.

Maybe it wont last as long as the viper setup but it can also be turned down to near zero boost for just cruzing around and can make big power on stock everything.
And to stay within a budget of 40k with a 10k donor just seems like wish full thinking to me the paint alone is going to cost 6-10k if you hire someone 22ish for a complete kit +8 for paint
leaves 10k for your donor if you can find a fox for 2k that leaves 8k for a turbo, wheels and tires and upgrades likely to the clutch and bell housing. If you paint it your self you could save even more.

Also don't forget the coupe has a sizable power to weight advantage over a zo6 corvette, its about 3200lbs about 600-800lbs heavier than a coupe. If you run 400-450 to the wheels that will put you in zr1 territory.

[METAL C6R]

Duly noted HCP

Thanks for the insight on the drive shaft issue. I had no Idea that this would be so close. I will definitely keep this in mind when the time comes. This Coupe build is still in the conceptual phase. ... "Oh , that would be cool. What about this,".. sort of mentality. I would like to model this whole thing out in Solidworks before I buy and build that way there is no question on dimensions, aligning, etc. Thought when the time comes I might end up just taking you up on your offer if that is still an option.
For some reason though this whole viper thing has been very infectious to me. I know it isn't cheap and I am looking for wrecked donors. Some I have seen for pretty cheap but the condition of the engine and transmission was quite questionable.

!! _ Warning, Stubbornness Approaching _ !!
If I wanted to go just for cheap and high horse. Being a fan of Corvette Racing and Jan Magnussen, I would opt to put an LS7 in it. about as light as a coyote, and even more power. But something about putting a Chevy into a Shelby doesn't sit right with me. The viper doesn't fault in this because there was a 1997 Shelby Viper GTS. Yes the original Daytona had a ford and it's "technically cross-dressing," but I don't think so in this case. Prestigious motor of the time in a light weight chassis, I think in a weird sense that it falls inline with the spirit of the cobra. Not much less than taking a European design and throwing a Ford into it.

The thought of putting a trans-axle in this had crossed my mind. more or less to just balance out the extra weight. Now it seems I am being pushed that way by the "proposed" design.
I know that the entire rear end would be an exploration and learning process at that point, and I would have a lot of headaches and questions.

[loeffler1]

You had better get a big line of credit somewhere as this sounds hugely expensive and for what? You can get the same HP out of a small block a lot cheaper!

[METAL C6R]

What if I told you I plan on doing this for under 40k...?

Edit:
Reason why? Because it hasn't been done? Because it would be a sight to see? Because why not?
I'm not looking for acceptance here. just advice. This is my plan, and no matter what, it will happen. I am committed
Besides someone has fit a Merlin in a'55. A Viper V10 in a coupe is nothing compared to that.

The main budget buster that I want to do but wont at first is a telemetry system, because According to AEM Electronics will cost about as much as the car.

[HCP 65 COUPE]

Metal,

I do hope you can make the viper setup work because I love seeing things done
A different way just make sure if you do the viper setup to take lots of pics and share
Them here cause this kind of thing is very cool to all of us. I did look up the specs for the rear Track width and the viper is only 1in wider than ff5 spec for the coupe so the viper IRS may work
You may need to flare the body or change wheels but it may just work. Moving the frame front 4in tube
Forward may allow the engine to be moved forward enough to fit the length. And lowering the engine as far as possible will also help fit it under the hood.
I also did some things to my coupe that are different then the norm but those things have
Added a ton of time and cost to my build my cross ram setup added a full year and about 4k to my build
I say build it how you want just try not to paint yourself into a corner and make sure you plan every step
Along the way dont cut and paste and hope if you mod the frame make sure you have the welding
And engineering skill to do it right strong and safe lives will be on the line yours and others.

[METAL C6R]

Will do HCP,

I had thought about this kind of flare for the body and fitting the tires into it, but it looks far too excessive and ruins the lines of the car if you ask me. If anything, it will be minor, only whats necessary, and blended with the car.

Pictures are a priority, maybe even video progress repor as well. I will have a build thread/log and update it constantly, If I don't post/ask questions, just assume I am broke and can't afford the next piece to the puzzle, or dead, because something will likely go horribly wrong otherwise. I posted a different thread and specifically sent factory five a request for the frame pics/drawings so I can plan to lay out the design. whether I get pictures, drawings, or just order the coupe. I will lay it out in Solidworks and figure out my plan from there. I can use what Frog, from moparproshop, sent me and I can get specs on the transmission to lay them out in SW before I get the donor. I would like to see what kind of loads I get with the frame and any modifications I decide to go with can do. Might as well spend the time to do it right the first time however long that may be.

I know that I can't just lay out the viper drive line into the coupe because the engine is just at the viper's front axle, and the wheelbase is near 3.8" longer. So, guessing, that's going to be between 8" to 12" shorter drive shaft than the viper. Depending on how creative I can get with the air intake routing. I just have to make sure there isn't a lot of static pressure, and that the drive-line is straight with the diff. If I go into enough detail with the cad, I can plan out just about anything. engine position, angle, weight distribution, center of mass, suspension modifications, chassis stiffening, headers, air ducts, you name it.

I am not sure as to how I want to go about the suspension just yet. I did like the looks of the new 2015 Mustang IRS. but I will more than likely have a backspacing and turning issues with the wheels If I decide to go the complete kit route and use Viper donor wheels. I think the easiest route would be to just order custom sized wheels to match the backspacing, and not touch the complete kits setup. Though, regardless if I do that, get custom a/control arms with viper parts, or match the connection points and use the actual viper suspension, I want to verify that all the components of the suspension, IE Roll center, bump steer, camber, body flex, will not harm the car with whatever route I take. again more design that I haven't gotten to yet.

Luckily though that's what I have right now, A lot of time.