Grassroots- Ultimate Track Car Challenge 2015?

[C.Plavan]

The preliminary entry list is out. Are the 818R's going??? Please tell me they are.

If not, why have the FFR 818R's become Phantom race cars? There has not been any races, updates, or anything for almost a year. Very discouraging for 818R builders/drivers like myself.

[D Clary]

Yeathe FFR R models have disappeared. It seem like they ran junk, blew up and parked.

[Mechie3]

^^ That's my guess. From my POV, it looks like they tried to make the UTCC a side project so they showed up with stuff that wasn't fully tested with all the kinks worked out. Instead of posting amazing times they ended up blowing cars up and not making a good name in the process. It'd be better if they focus on one thing (looks like now it's the 818C) instead of trying to do everything at once.

[FFRSpec72]

Had the same issues back when the FFR challenge series started, lots of issues, no instructions, etc. it took a few years to work things out but once these bugs were worked out things went smoothly.

There is a 818R being prepared for the 25 hours of Thunder Hill by a team here at work, that should be interesting and help sort out some issues.

[C.Plavan]

Had the same issues back when the FFR challenge series started, lots of issues, no instructions, etc. it took a few years to work things out but once these bugs were worked out things went smoothly.

There is a 818R being prepared for the 25 hours of Thunder Hill by a team here at work, that should be interesting and help sort out some issues.

They better be doing alot of testing before. If they need an experienced 818R driver- let me know
BTW I just got done installing the primary (secondary...lol) front oil cooler. everything works- no leaks.

[Hindsight]

Are you buying oil by the 55 gallon drum yet?

[C.Plavan]

Are you buying oil by the 55 gallon drum yet?

Haha- No. But it took 9.5ish quarts. I'm thinking of taking Friday off and testing at the track. (Thats what you are supposed to do with race cars....not park them... )

Wallymart 15/50 Mobil one (red label) with all the proper additives for our cars is $23 for a 5 qt jug. You cant beat that.

[longislandwrx]

yeah Wal-Mart is definitely the best deal, Costco is close when they have a coupon... you can get it 6qt for 30 iirc. They don't always have red cap though.

^^ That's my guess. From my POV, it looks like they tried to make the UTCC a side project so they showed up with stuff that wasn't fully tested with all the kinks worked out. Instead of posting amazing times they ended up blowing cars up and not making a good name in the process. It'd be better if they focus on one thing (looks like now it's the 818C) instead of trying to do everything at once.

agreed, I wish next it was the pain(t)less body panels, and just tweaking the parts that already exist.... new stuff is cool but an easy to install body would be nice.

[D Clary]

You would think that instead of blowing their junk up and disappearing to do "other things" they would try to salvage their reputation and com back with good sh**t. They have really good cars somewhere and all they need is to spend a little "ok a lot" on a motor. I don't think they did themselves any favor by trying to slam together a car in a week just to nuke it on you tube. It just seems like the R went to the verrry back burner and a few customers are spending five fortunes to do the R&D.

[C.Plavan]

Exactly- FFR, please donate to my Go Fund Me site.....

[longislandwrx]

Dave just commented on the other thread

"
The discussion of the R-model is going to happen after the 818C launch. There are competing projects, BUT within the scope of the 818 program, I know that one path is the 818CR. We've got a great race plan for this summer, but honestly I will look at the 818 program after the release of the 818C and upgrade parts to select the next stages for the platform. Thanks. "

[D Clary]

How is the go fund me doing Chad? If you get extra?

[Mechie3]

You would think that instead of blowing their junk up and disappearing to do "other things" they would try to salvage their reputation and com back with good sh**t..

It's just the nature of any business, but especially a small business. Do you continue to develop the R, which doesn't bring in as much money, or do you focus on other higher volume things so that they're done and out there and once the money is flowing in, focus on the side projects. I have the same problem and it's why my car isn't done. I shifted focus from "build build build" to build...but develop parts and make them manufactureable at the same time so money comes in. The upside is money is coming in (slowly, lol), the downside is my car isn't done.

[C.Plavan]

How is the go fund me doing Chad? If you get extra?

Haha- I don't have one. I was just playing around.

[C.Plavan]

It's just the nature of any business, but especially a small business. Do you continue to develop the R, which doesn't bring in as much money, or do you focus on other higher volume things so that they're done and out there and once the money is flowing in, focus on the side projects. I have the same problem and it's why my car isn't done. I shifted focus from "build build build" to build...but develop parts and make them manufactureable at the same time so money comes in. The upside is money is coming in (slowly, lol), the downside is my car isn't done.

That's true in part. But I imagine if they raced the 818R and were beating other high dollar cars on the track (not an outdated, old Porsche Boxster that can be bought for less than a 818), that would sell more cars. All people have seen are 818R's cars blowing up/breaking. That does not help sales.

I'm glad there is a plan they say. I just hope they stick to it and do it right. If I knew I was going to spend north of $33k on an 818R, I possibly would of went another route for a race car. Hopefully, I will not have to dump more money into it to make it run longer than 15-20min. It is a fun car when running though.

[Dave Smith]

In another thread I was referring to the potential of an 818CR effort (cage for coupe 818) as an option going forward. It was in answer to a question about the hardtop modded for an 818R (The current cage makes the removeable hard top fit only the S model).

I read the rest of this post and I wondered what planet I've been living on? "blow up junk, dissapearing to do other things, salvage reputation"?!!! I take umbrage with this communication. We had a bad race and blew up two motors. That was a small part of (and should have been expected) the 818R program. We have three races scheduled going forward this year, the 818R has a new engine in it and the running gear from the other 818R is in the 818C that will be unveiled at Open House, we've run the 818R fast at a ton of tracks and judging the program based on a video and post I shared in order to let you guys know the degree to which we were investing (and yes, a bad weekend among many good ones). Let me say this clearly, the 818R is already the fastest FFR car we have. We've tested the crap out of it and are very happy with where the program is right now. The entire 818 program, improvements, changes to and addition of options, the addition of the new 818Coupe, and all the design goals are going along great. We've run 100's of laps and hours on the track with all kinds of testing and results, some from mistakes, some from engineering changes, some from good luck, some from bad.

In aggregate, we've invested and continue to invest in the 818 platform and that includes the 818R race development. The other day I was talking to a neighbor doctor buddy. He was heading to Watkins Glen to run with PCA as he is an instructor (although he drives a BMW track car). He has maybe $65K into his BMW. I asked him his fastest lap time around the Glen and he said somewhere around 2:12. We ran 2:02 in a sub $20k junk yard motor 818. We ran 56 sec at Lime Rock the same day the editors at Road and Track were high-fiving the fact that the new stingray broke under a minute at 59.9sec and were were quietly testing our cars and old blue clocked the 56 (prototype blue and white 818R with 320 or so hp).

I shared our frustration as I've shared our victories. We will continue the 818R program for sure. One final thought before you throw the FFR guys under the bus. I would put our ratio of race money to revenue against ANY company in the world, and times 100 compared to any kit car company. I will try to communicate more of what we are doing going forward as I agree I have not posted much about the 818R program.

[C.Plavan]

In another thread I was referring to the potential of an 818CR effort (cage for coupe 818) as an option going forward. It was in answer to a question about the hardtop modded for an 818R (The current cage makes the removeable hard top fit only the S model).

I read the rest of this post and I wondered what planet I've been living on? "blow up junk, disappearing to do other things, salvage reputation"?!!! I take umbrage with this communication. We had a bad race and blew up two motors. That was a small part of (and should have been expected) the 818R program. We have three races scheduled going forward this year, the 818R has a new engine in it and the running gear from the other 818R is in the 818C that will be unveiled at Open House, we've run the 818R fast at a ton of tracks and judging the program based on a video and post I shared in order to let you guys know the degree to which we were investing (and yes, a bad weekend among many good ones). Let me say this clearly, the 818R is already the fastest FFR car we have. We've tested the crap out of it and are very happy with where the program is right now. The entire 818 program, improvements, changes to and addition of options, the addition of the new 818Coupe, and all the design goals are going along great. We've run 100's of laps and hours on the track with all kinds of testing and results, some from mistakes, some from engineering changes, some from good luck, some from bad.

In aggregate, we've invested and continue to invest in the 818 platform and that includes the 818R race development. The other day I was talking to a neighbor doctor buddy. He was heading to Watkins Glen to run with PCA as he is an instructor (although he drives a BMW track car). He has maybe $65K into his BMW. I asked him his fastest lap time around the Glen and he said somewhere around 2:12. We ran 2:02 in a sub $20k junk yard motor 818. We ran 56 sec at Lime Rock the same day the editors at Road and Track were high-fiving the fact that the new stingray broke under a minute at 59.9sec and were were quietly testing our cars and old blue clocked the 56 (prototype blue and white 818R with 320 or so hp).

I shared our frustration as I've shared our victories. We will continue the 818R porgram. I would put our ratio of race money to revenue against ANY company in the world. I will try to communicate more of what we are doing going forward as I agree I have not posted much about the 818R program.

Dave,

Thank you for replying to the post and for the additional information. THIS is what we need.

I think the point is- It would be great for more communication from FFR. From where we all are sitting, The 818R's disappeared, for almost a year after the mishaps. Things got quiet. No one heard a thing, no races, all we saw was coupe teaser pictures, a trunk, and a silver painted 818R. All this while people were having issues with their track driven 818's (S or R's). You can bet that was not very encouraging for guys building their cars in their garage, watching the factory and personally owned 818's having major issues. I for one lost my "Building Morale", and many other felt alone after spending all this money.

Running faster lap times than car costing twice as much is great, but does not mean anything if the car has issues completing races.

Unfortunately, The above was the reality and the world we were living on. With more communication, maybe the feelings, findings would of been different.

With all that being said, I'm trying my hardest to get this 818R super competitive. My car is nicknamed the R&D 818R from the other forum enthusiasts. That should say something. That R&D is coming out of my own wallet, so others can benefit building their own car in their garage.

Transport my car back East- I'll run the Ultimate Track Car Challenge for FFR.

[D Clary]

Sorry Dave I did not know any of this was happening, here is my problem. What have you learned, what worked what didn't. You're testing and research is not helping unless it is shared. You know who the R owners are and have their emails. Everybody shouldn't have to re-spend every dollar finding out the same information. Chad is on his second set of springs, is he going to need a third? Are your axles holding up? do we need chrome molly? These are the things we need to know not just you're lap times. Thanks again and I am sorry if my criticism was unfounded.

[FFRSpec72]

With all that being said, I'm trying my hardest to get this 818R super competitive. My car is nicknamed the R&D 818R from the other forum enthusiasts. That should say something. That R&D is coming out of my own wallet, so others can benefit building their own car in their garage.

We all build our cars differently and for different purposes, things you do I won't do, things I do you won't do, it's our own personal R&D that may help others or not. Everyone does their own R&D when building a race car, if you did not want to do this then buy a already prepared race car. I know I get frustrated at times but I also get a sense of satisfaction when I'm working on the car.

I know FFR builds a solid product and stands behind their product and has invested a lot of time and money to bring this to market. I have been through the challenge car experience and I know in the end this will be a fun, fast, completive and economic car to build and run. So build it the way you want, test it the way you want and have fun the way you want.

[C.Plavan]

We all build our cars differently and for different purposes, things you do I won't do, things I do you won't do, it's our own personal R&D that may help others or not. Everyone does their own R&D when building a race car, if you did not want to do this then buy a already prepared race car. I know I get frustrated at times but I also get a sense of satisfaction when I'm working on the car.

I know FFR builds a solid product and stands behind their product and has invested a lot of time and money to bring this to market. I have been through the challenge car experience and I know in the end this will be a fun, fast, completive and economic car to build and run. So build it the way you want, test it the way you want and have fun the way you want.

You missed the point on communication. What are your feelings on that?

At the end of the day, if something does not work on your car, what are you going to do? Try something that works for someone else? Yes, people build differently. I have a running car, and I am showing what has not worked for me as pure guidance. Like the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water"......

[Dave Smith]

Observations noted for sure. This is bringing some memories back for sure about the Challenge Series days. I remember the difficulty of communicating with racers, all of whom want to explore their own ideas and solutions and yet the series needed consistency and a defined lack of "creative solutions". Truth is that racing is a world unto itself and the variables are many. Compared to street driving, the mods have much greater affect at limits and in the track environments. I was under the impression that Jim and the boys were providing feedback to you all where and when needed. I'll have a talk with the crew to make sure we are sharing ideas and experiences better. I hate it when things are different than I thought. Thanks for the candor.

[FFRSpec72]

You missed the point on communication. What are your feelings on that?

I think the communications has been adequate, as Dave tells us his plans for the 818 and then announces the products when they are ready and in general does a great job, they may not be the products I'm looking for but I understand they are looking for the best marketable products given their research. Would be nice to see a race schedule of when they will have the 818R out on the track so we can keep an eye on it's performance. Would also be nice if they are in the area when one of us were running that they come out and lend a hand or at least observe and acknowledge our existence as we are all trying to make a better product for Factory Five in the end.

I'm not doubting that those in front are paving the way and we all benefit one way or another, but this is always been the case though history, nothing is perfect the first time out (not even when I was born) and thus will take work to achieve perfection (and in some cases just a running car). I would say that most all of us appreciate this forum and the people that post their issues, solutions and experiences here so we can all learn, as each our builds is an R&D effort to build a car the way we want it. I think Factory Five makes good usage of social media, there are Factory Five employees always on the forum, Dave seems to be on daily.

When I have a build or track issue with an FFR, I will scan through these forums to see if others had issues as this tells me that I may have done something wrong if no others have issue or that it's a known issue and builders have solved this (usually in different ways) and I can then benefit and find a solution that fits my build.

So yes I appreciate your efforts and the efforts of all the other folks, as in some way I'm sure that I will have picked up some knowledge from every build post I read and benefited from this with my build.

I'm sure I will have issues in a few weeks when mine gets out on the track, but I accept this fact and will continue to post my experiences.

[David Hodgkins]

If there is anything the forum can do to give more visibility to the racers, let me know. We have an 818R forum; do we need a 818R Racing forum? If so, would you like to see a combined Race forum or one for each model?

BTW as a minor tangent I know that ffcars has a challenge series forum and that is how FFR still communicates with the racers of that series. Why hasn't that been moved here? THIS is the official forum after all...

[C.Plavan]

I think we just want to be kept in the loop.

I will say that Jim has been helpful when I email him (I don't very often). I just think we should not have to be asking specifics on the 818R, or what changes the FFR is finding helpful. But a lot of that is old or limited because of the lack of current FFR 818Rs on the track.

The supplemental for the R was a great leap for future 818R builders. It sure would of saved me some headaches.

[JAubin]

Even though I'm building an S, eventually to become a C...I really love seeing the 818Rs and all the work FFR and forum members are putting into them. I for one would love to see an R in the UTCC...what do we need to do to get FFR there or send Chad out East?

[D Clary]

What we need is communication from FFR. They can post what they have learned or email to their R customers. It doesn't make sense to have every R customer email them with question when they can just open their race log. I have race on almost every level of oval racing and I know that what is good for one may not be good for another. I have also run factor built cars and they all come with set up options. I don't know how Spec 72 gets info but I have heard nothing for a year and a half. So I would say that that is not more than adequate. I don't know that we need another forum just use what we have

[flynntuna]

Everyone here is making great points. The 818 being a new platform is going thru some growing pains for sure, but when I look at the 818 home page and look over at the 818 build Wiki, it's virtually empty. I'm sure in time the build Wiki will be a useful tool for new builders like me.

[bbjones121]

First I want to thank you Chad for all that you have contributed and continue to contribute to these forums. We have learned A LOT from all that you have done and you have saved some of us lots of money. Your input from successes and struggles has been extremely helpful. I would think your expertise and presence could definitely benefit others during racing events.

Second, I want to mention that this thread has gotten the attention of Dave and he has taken time to respond back personally rather than let others. From the sounds of it, there was a miscommunication somewhere and I am sure that FFR will be more active now. I don't know if we need to keep mentioning the same thing in this forum, do we? Lets give this new awareness a chance to take root and help this grow into a more collaborative community.

[C.Plavan]

It looks like someone stepped up in an 818R..... But who is it? What car?

[bbjones121]

Nice!

[D Clary]

They say they have sold over 60 r models and I doubt if there are 20 on the forum.

[FFRSpec72]

They say they have sold over 60 r models and I doubt if there are 20 on the forum.

I know of at least 3 818R in a 6 mile radius of me that are not on the forum, they could care less, they are building the car the way they want and don't want to be bothered, nothing wrong with that.

[D Clary]

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, I was just pointing out the likelihood of an R model no one knows about.

[bbjones121]

I think there are 3 up north of Denver that aren't on here either

[Mechie3]

I like to see them on forums just because it's fun to watch them get built.

[D Clary]

There are no 818 that I know of within a hundred miles or so and no one know what they are. People come into the shop and don't have any idea what it is. They think it's a Ferrari or a vette or some electric car because they see no engine in the front. The forum helps me realize that I may not be crazy for building it.

[drdracing]

I will be auto-x mine this weekend in Shasta County, Anderson speedway. It will be in excess of 110 degrees both days. I will let you know how it goes, unless I melt. Rick

[Desertrunner]

Has anyone made a list of why the cars are blowing up or the problems, it would then be easier to solve the biggest problems first.

[kabacj]

Hi Guys,

Just a perspective of someone who has developed a Factory Five car, and races it, and is in the UTCC.

Developing a race car is a difficult task. Its not for everyone. If you expect to show up and win you will disappointed. Even massive factory teams can't do that.

If you convert a standard street car for racing, be prepared for a large investment of time and money. When you start with a street car everyone has the same known starting point and lots of guys can help you with how to develop the car.

When you start with a factory five car you start a little farther back regarding the development curve but your ultimate product is amazing and in my opinion far better. Factory five and its customers have been incredibly helpful in my quest to convert a GTM into a race car. I would do it again in a second. If you are in the process of developing a race car, or you have developed a race car, you know how helpful this community and the factory five team are.


I know this is the Internet and everyone has equal say regardless of experience or background so I just wanted to chime in as someone who as done it. Its worth it. Its not easy, but the process has been one of the most satisfying things I have ever done.

[Turboguy]

You need more wing.