818R front suspension adjustment?

[bstuke]

I was at a Match Tour event this weekend and spent a lot of time chatting with EM veterans like Scott Minehart(Stalker) and Steve Brueck(Jeep YC-1) along with a lot of other national class champions.

The one thing that was clear is I do not have any room to adjust the camber more than the .5 degree it is at.

So what are the options? Do I have something wrong? I have a short adjuster and a long adjuster on each side. Both are all the way in.

Thanks for any feedback.

Bob

[Buzz Skyline]

Lots of people have cut the threaded arms of the upper control arm assemblies to create more camber. I don't think there's any other solution.

[bstuke]

I'll post some pictures once I get the car out of the trailer and the front off.

[bstuke]

I also had a suggestion to move the upper arm only back to the street spot instead of the track spot..

[xxguitarist]

Cut the adjuster nuts, cut the studs inside too. IIRC we have -2* front, -3*rear, using aluminum LCA with castor spacer.

[bstuke]

Cut the adjuster nuts, cut the studs inside too. IIRC we have -2* front, -3*rear, using aluminum LCA with castor spacer.

Love to see a photo. I don't see how I can get to -2 even cutting stuff and eliminating a jam nut.

BTW what are you running the me otter at or do you AutoX it? Some folks have echoed running somewhat the same alignment front and back.
Front
Caster: 5.0 degrees
Camber: 1.0-1.5 degrees negative
Toe-in: 1/16", 0.15° or 9 arcminutes total (1/32", 0.075° or 4.5 minutes per side)
Rear
Camber: 1.5-2.0 degrees negative
Toe-in: 1/16", 0.15° or 9 arcminutes total (1/32", 0.075° or 4.5 minutes per side)

I will most likely stick with a little toe out in both front and back.

[xxguitarist]

Confirmed via our build thread :-)

-2 camber in the front and -3 rear. We were close to this and ajusted to it based on tire temperatures on hoosier A6/A7.
1/16" toe in rear, 1/8" in front. We'll probably move to less front toe in, since we run mild toe out on the Miata, but originally we had even more. This car doesn't need help to liven it up, it's very active already.

I would avoid static toe out in rear especially.

We have a couple shots of the upper A arms here.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...d-Build/page15

[bstuke]

Andrew,

A Picture is worth a thousand words! Thank you.

Yes on the rear toe, 1/16" is what I am going with to start. And 1/8 toe out on the front. And 4.0 caster on the front. And then -2/-3

We had a conversation about how these light EM type cars need to be adjusted in millimeter increments because of the low center and wide tires.

Keep smacking Darren(Spec Jetta) and the rest of those NE folks around, and come see us down here sometime, We got good BBQ and warm weather..

[xxguitarist]

Just to be clear,
We have toe IN on both front and rear!

[D Clary]

818 control arm 001.JPG I cut the adjuster and the studs, and a 3/8 spacer on the rear lower mount, otherwise I couldn't get close to the caster camber that I was looking for. You might try more tow in on the rear. I am in the 3/16 area. camber really depends on the tire you are using.

[bstuke]

Just to be clear,
We have toe IN on both front and rear!

I don't drive on the street so a little toe out will help me through turns.

818 control arm 001.JPG I cut the adjuster and the studs, and a 3/8 spacer on the rear lower mount, otherwise I couldn't get close to the caster camber that I was looking for. You might try more tow in on the rear. I am in the 3/16 area. camber really depends on the tire you are using.

Thanks for the picture and feedback. I have 285/30-18 on the back, so I am going to start with a little and work from there.

[xxguitarist]

I don't drive on the street so a little toe out will help me through turns.

We have front toe out on the miata, and it helps a lot. We may try toe out on the 818 also, but from our driving to date, it did not need any assistance rotating at autox, and we wanted to encourage a little more mild handling.

[bstuke]

I dropped almost 3 seconds just from better rotation with a little toe out this weekend, basically a second a a turn! Once I get the camber straightened out I am going to get it completely aligned at Gran Toursimo East, and then I can make minor adjustments from there. Trying to recover my video, something happened to my memory card in my GoPro.

[D Clary]

You do not want toe out in the rear.

[bstuke]

You do not want toe out in the rear.

correct..

[C.Plavan]

If you need even more front camber (Hoosiers), you can wobble out the top hole on the upper ball joint bracket. Then push the spindle in.

Toe out in the front is good. I noticed that also. 1/8 out for me, and I also have 3/16 toe in in the rear. I may trim the car out to 1/16 toe out front, and 1/8 toe in rear for high speed tracks to see if there is a difference.

[C.Plavan]

I dropped almost 3 seconds just from better rotation with a little toe out this weekend, basically a second a a turn! Once I get the camber straightened out I am going to get it completely aligned at Gran Toursimo East, and then I can make minor adjustments from there. Trying to recover my video, something happened to my memory card in my GoPro.

Put the card back in the gopro, and try to watch it from there. The Gopro will try and fix the corrupted file.

[bstuke]

If you need even more front camber (Hoosiers), you can wobble out the top hole on the upper ball joint bracket. Then push the spindle in.

Toe out in the front is good. I noticed that also. 1/8 out for me, and I also have 3/16 toe in in the rear. I may trim the car out to 1/16 toe out front, and 1/8 toe in rear for high speed tracks to see if there is a difference.

Thanks for the feedback and tips. I think I have a good starting point. After getting the car back in the garage and looking at it I think there is a change in the height from side to side as well. I wonder now if I set it with a spring not seated. The adjuster is locked.

Put the card back in the gopro, and try to watch it from there. The Gopro will try and fix the corrupted file.

Yep tried that. Something with the Hero4 is not letting it do that and it just says SD card error. I did find a program that will recover them.

[bstuke]

This is the passenger side.

What do you think?

It looks pretty close to the pictures posted. I am kinda worried about trimming the short aluminum sleeve, and may order the steel pieces as an alternative..
20150609_162448.jpg

[xxguitarist]

Assuming similar control arm width, that should result in more camber than we were after. We have both lock nuts still, and the aluminum is cut just inside the no-flats section on both ends.

[bstuke]

Assuming similar control arm width, that should result in more camber than we were after. We have both lock nuts still, and the aluminum is cut just inside the no-flats section on both ends.

Cool, exactly what I did.

[bstuke]

Just got back from Gran Tourismo East. I was able to get close to what I was looking for. The alignment guy and owner Jeff(aligning performance vehicles and race cars for over 30 years) had some suggestions:

Switch to steel adjusters. They will offer more strength. I had done that on the Cobra as well.

Consider drilling the pinion mount and using the offset WRX bolt. Wayne recommended this as well and I am looking into it.

Consider moving the LCA to the lower spot to reduce the ackerman. I do have a bump steer kit and even with it the ackerman is still way off. The FF suggestion is a longer bolt, but it almost feels like the bolt would be so long it would flex.

Since I can't run the wing in EM I might also put a 400lb spring on the front and move the 300lb to the back.

We will see after this weekend.

Thanks for all the feedback!

[D Clary]

Moving the control arm down wont change the ackerman. It is built into the spindle and steering arm

[bstuke]

It actually looks like it will put them more parallel..

[Bob_n_Cincy]

It actually looks like it will put them more parallel..

Bob
I'm do not know much about suspension. I think if you move your LCA to the bottom hole, it will lower your roll center. This will cause more body roll.
Any body want to back me up on this or shoot me down?
Bob

[bstuke]

I do not know much about suspension.

ME EITHER!!!!!

I do understand what D_Clary is saying, although having them in the same plane is at least better than they are now and will reduce the extreme amount of toe change in between braking and acceleration. I also have no idea if the roll center change has that much affect on a 1700lb car with extremely grippy tires and an already low roll center.

I am also at 4" height on the front so that makes it worse as well. Too bad the rack position is not adjustable.

On a positive note the alignment guys were very impressed with the rear setup and adjust-ability. The car is at least square now.

I was thoroughly impressed with their Hunter Hawkeye Elite alignment system. They even had a floor mounted monitor so when they were making adjustments under they car they could see real time updates. Very nice.

Here is a video of the system, I was pretty geeked up over it:

[Hindsight]

Too bad the rack position is not adjustable.

You can probably raise the rack a fair amount. You just can't lower it. I made some brackets that I'm selling at cost that allow you to properly mount the rack to the frame. You could simply add a spacer under them (just a piece of aluminum in whatever thickness you want with holes drilled through it for the bolts). There should be enough room to move it up nearly an inch before it hits the frame, and you can move the steering column in and out as much as needed to compensate for the shift in the rack. I don't know if an inch or so will get you to where you need to be but thought I'd pass along the option.

[D Clary]

Just buy a bump steer kit. You can reduce the bump steer to less than .015"

[bstuke]

Just buy a bump steer kit. You can reduce the bump steer to less than .015"

Got one of those bumpy steer kits, still off about 2"..

[D Clary]

How are you off 2 inches ? do you have a bump steer guage, what is your ride height? I am in the R mounting at 4 inch ride height. The bump steer spacers are about 1 7/16 inch. There isn't 2 inches there to bee off. If you don't have a gauge you need to get one. Ackerman is a line drawn from the lower ball joint, through the outer tie rod end to the center of the rear end. Due to the change in wheel base our Ackerman will be off. What the Ackerman does is allow the inside tire to turn at a sharper radius than the outside. Without changing the wheel base or spindle arm it is not adjustable. Changing the roll center will change the handling characteristics of the car. It will change the roll stiffness and the effective spring rate. So lowering the roll center is effectively weakening the springs allowing more roll. If you increase the spring rate to make up for this you will get a harsher ride as the vertical effective spring rate is not changed by the roll center.

[bstuke]

I'll post some pictures this evening.

[C.Plavan]

How long are the spacers you made for the bumpsteer kit? They should be around 2 7/16" long.

[bstuke]

How long are the spacers you made for the bumpsteer kit? They should be around 2 7/16" long.

What size and length bolt? Does it flex any?

[D Clary]

Sorry I said 1 7/16 Chads right it is 2 7/16 It is a 3/4 bolt no flex in the bolt though it does add a twisting force to the steering arm. I have a similar spacer on my Mustang no problem for many miles of street and track.

[bstuke]

Sorry I said 1 7/16 Chads right it is 2 7/16 It is a 3/4 bolt no flex in the bolt though it does add a twisting force to the steering arm. I have a similar spacer on my Mustang no problem for many miles of street and track.

OK cool, on it! Pictures in a few. Just finishing up the UCA.

[bstuke]

20150619_162123.jpg20150619_162112.jpg20150619_162104.jpg

[D Clary]

Is you're car at ride height? I f you're ride height is higher than 4 inches the spacer will have to be longer. You need a bump steer gauge The sell them at Longacre and Speedway motors they are not expensive and in my opinion a must have. You can take mine or Chads measurement and use it but to be close you need to measure. The difference in the spacer could be 10 or 20 thousandths.

[Mitch Wright]

I used a 5/8 bolt.

[C.Plavan]

I used a 5/8" bolt (grade 8). You have to drill out the spindle hole to 5/8th's. I put together a thread a while ago how to do it. Had to be last summer I believe.

Since then the R supplemental has the info in it.

[D Clary]

I was wrong again it is 5/8.