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Thread: Jazzman’s #8745 "Flip Top" Build

  1. #921
    Mark Eaton's Avatar
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    I have been fretting over the alignment issue since build school. I vacillate between take it to someone vs do it myself. I would rather do it myself. Tools for alignment range from $20 to over $500 for the Quicktrick Alignment system. Not sure where to go. The most expensive tools are those that don't work well...

    I am gaining more confidence as I read more build threads, watch Youtube vids, and read wikipedia.

    Oh, and I'm getting really good at backing out bolts that have red locktite on them!
    MK4 #9130 , complete kit, arrived 8/10/2017, Street Legal 2/14/2020.
    DART SHP 347, EFI, TKO600, IRS
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...n-Build-Thread

  2. #922
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    I am also wondering if a good front end alignment might make the car less "squirley". I am surprised and pleased that the car drives very straight and true. But it is VERY "twitchy". (Don't you love all my technical language?!!) I am searching for alignment tools now.
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  3. #923
    Senior Member wareaglescott's Avatar
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    I would in no way describe my driving experience twitchy. I think an alignment will help you out.

    Keep in mind with the IRS you are going to need a good rear alignment as well. I spent a lot of time doing mine. In the end I thought I did pretty good. When the car was at Whitby they had a local shop that did a lot of cars for them so I figured I would go ahead and get mine done. Turns out when seeing the before and after printout I was not nearly as close as I thought. I had a hard time getting the level of accuracy I needed from the tools I bought. I know Paul had good results with the same tools though so it certainly can be done.
    MK4 #8900 - complete kit - Coyote, TKO600, IRS - Delivered 6/28/16 First Start 10/6/16 Go cart - 10/16/16 Build completed - 4/26/17 - 302 days to build my 302 CI Coyote Cobra - Registered and street legal 5/17/17
    Build Thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-build-thread
    PHIL 4:13 INSTAGRAM - @scottsrides

  4. #924
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
    I am also wondering if a good front end alignment might make the car less "squirley". I am surprised and pleased that the car drives very straight and true. But it is VERY "twitchy". (Don't you love all my technical language?!!) I am searching for alignment tools now.
    If they tell you that they can only align it if it's in their computer move on. A good old school alignment tech can set to any specs you like without having to rely on the computer to tell him what to turn and how much. Course maybe that's just my inner curmudgeon coming out...

    "Twitchy" is a result of not being aligned properly. I'm not familiar with the specs for the '15 IRS so use FFR's recommendation there. As for the front with a street car go with .5 degree negative camber, 8 degrees positive caster for power steering (may need to shorten the rear adjuster sleeves depending on UCA vintage) or 3 degrees positive for manual and 3/32" total toe in. MAKE SURE THAT IS TOE IN, NOT TOE OUT. Toe out will make it...."Twitchy"

    Jeff

  5. #925
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    If they tell you that they can only align it if it's in their computer move on. A good old school alignment tech can set to any specs you like without having to rely on the computer to tell him what to turn and how much. Course maybe that's just my inner curmudgeon coming out...

    "Twitchy" is a result of not being aligned properly. I'm not familiar with the specs for the '15 IRS so use FFR's recommendation there. As for the front with a street car go with .5 degree negative camber, 8 degrees positive caster for power steering (may need to shorten the rear adjuster sleeves depending on UCA vintage) or 3 degrees positive for manual and 3/32" total toe in. MAKE SURE THAT IS TOE IN, NOT TOE OUT. Toe out will make it...."Twitchy"

    Jeff
    Thanks for the clarification, Jeff. After looking into the tools cost, the learning curve, and the frequency with which I am not going to do a full alignment, I have decided to have a pro do it. Thank you to AZPete for introducing me to a nearby shop that has the skills and FFR background to do the job. I have an appointment to get it done tomorrow at 2:30. Just to make sure I have it all straight:

    From page 41 of the IRS manual, "Alignment Specs": IRS should have Camber of -0.5 to -0.75 degrees. Total Toe of 1/8" Toe IN. No notation given for Caster. (Should I be concerned about that?) FFR Manual, Page 440, states Rear IRS should get Camber -1 degree, Total Toe 1/16", No Caster notation. (Again, should I be concerned about this, bot the lack of Caster and the slight variation between the FFR Manual and the IRS manual?)

    From Jeff Kleiner, and confirmed on page 440 of the FFR Build manual, Revision 4-A, October 2015, the Front for a car using power steering: Caster: 8 degrees (FFR manual says 7 degrees), Camber -0.5 degrees, Total Toe 1/16" (Total Toe IN?, No Caster given.)

    Does it sound like I have that right?
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  6. #926
    Senior Member Gromit's Avatar
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    No caster on IRS, caster is the line that the wheel pivots on, so unless you've installed rear wheel steering like a monster truck your all set as for camber follow Jeff
    Chris aka Gromit

  7. #927
    Mark Eaton's Avatar
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    Kevin,
    From what I've ready, mainly wikipedia, you only do Castor alignment on "steering" wheels. So, only the front. The rear only need camber and toe.
    MK4 #9130 , complete kit, arrived 8/10/2017, Street Legal 2/14/2020.
    DART SHP 347, EFI, TKO600, IRS
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...n-Build-Thread

  8. #928
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Glad you found a place that you trust and knows these cars. They may not have seen the new IRS setup before, but it's very straightforward and they shouldn't have any trouble. Unlike the previous version, no need to take anything apart. Just loosen the jam nuts, adjust, and re-tighten. FF recommends red Loctite on the rear toe and camber lock nuts. Sorry about that... I'd follow their recommendation. I think it's for a reason. I also marked mine so I could watch that they don't move.

    X3 on no caster for the rear non-turning wheels. The rear IRS numbers I cited before (Camber: -0.5° to -0.75°, Total Toe: 1/8” Toe in.) was cut and pasted out of the FF 2015 IRS instructions, same as you mentioned. I'd guess the specs you're looking at in the manual are for the previous T-Bird based IRS setup. For the front, yes toe IN as Jeff said. You may have trouble getting a full 8 degrees of caster in the front without slightly shortening the rear UCA adjuster. Maybe you've read about this in other threads.

    I'm willing to bet when the alignment is done you're going to notice a big different. Mine isn't twitchy at all. Quick, yes, but stays right where you put it. You'll love it.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  9. #929
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gromit View Post
    No caster on IRS, caster is the line that the wheel pivots on, so unless you've installed rear wheel steering like a monster truck your all set as for camber follow Jeff
    Chris aka Gromit
    Well I guess that shows what I don't know!! Thanks!!
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  10. #930
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    What an amazing difference an alignment makes!! Today i had a professional shop with a $60,000 plus Alignment rack do a really accurate job! The best part was that he let me watch, and I ultimately got to look at the underside of my car on a really big four post lift. (I have got to get me one of those!!!) The reason by car was "twitchy" was that the PS rear tire was WAAAAAAAY out of Camber, and the DS rear was 3/4" off of Total toe. It took him about 75 minutes to do the whole job. It was very cool to see how the computer and the laser optical sensors were able to give real time feedback to the technician. I really am glad I didn't waste the money and learning time to do my own alignment. The whole job cost me $150. The tools alone looked like they would set me back $400-$500, and then I would have to learn how to use it . . . once. I would forget how to do it by the next time I needed to, and I would have to store all the tools for years! Nope, having this done was a brilliant decision. The results: The car drives great!! So much better than before. The steering gives just the right amount of feedback, steers straight and true, and feels much more planted in a hard acceleration. Some of the best money I have spent!!











    The resulting numbers:

    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  11. #931
    Senior Member wareaglescott's Avatar
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    Glad you got that squared away.
    Did they have to shorten the rear UCA adjuster to achieve the proper caster?

    What do you have left to do to finish it up?
    MK4 #8900 - complete kit - Coyote, TKO600, IRS - Delivered 6/28/16 First Start 10/6/16 Go cart - 10/16/16 Build completed - 4/26/17 - 302 days to build my 302 CI Coyote Cobra - Registered and street legal 5/17/17
    Build Thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-build-thread
    PHIL 4:13 INSTAGRAM - @scottsrides

  12. #932
    Senior Member Gromit's Avatar
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    It's all about having the right tools for the job, very nice indeed
    Chris AKA Gromit

  13. #933
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wareaglescott View Post
    Glad you got that squared away.
    Did they have to shorten the rear UCA adjuster to achieve the proper caster?

    What do you have left to do to finish it up?
    No, it dialed in very nicely.

    Are they ever truly finished? I am finding there is always a list, but it is getting shorter.
    -- install set screws in wheels, install spinners
    -- figure out the problems with the amplifier, get the music started!
    -- do something to finish the ledges under the doors. Right now it is bare powdercoated metal. The edge of the carpet doesn't look as nice as I would like.
    -- figure out why the turn signals, high beam switch does not work.
    -- decided what, if anything, to do about the fact that the PS roll bar is 1/4" taller than the DS roll bar. You have to really be looking for it to see it, but I'm anal retentive and it bugs me.
    -- get and install the door inserts with pockets.
    -- hook up the courtesy lights in the foot boxes.

    Other than that, it is just about done. I already have some ideas for "upgrades and improvements" but those can wait. It is car show and driving season here in Arizona. I plan to show off a bit!!
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  14. #934
    Senior Member wareaglescott's Avatar
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    Do you have the carpet pieces for the ledges under the doors?
    I noticed you don't have the front bumpers on but seem to remember you spent quite a bit of effort devising that system. What is the status of those?
    Add you registration date to your signature. You earned it!
    MK4 #8900 - complete kit - Coyote, TKO600, IRS - Delivered 6/28/16 First Start 10/6/16 Go cart - 10/16/16 Build completed - 4/26/17 - 302 days to build my 302 CI Coyote Cobra - Registered and street legal 5/17/17
    Build Thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-build-thread
    PHIL 4:13 INSTAGRAM - @scottsrides

  15. #935
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Checking off the little details is a slow, but enjoyable process. Over the past few days, I have completed several items. I started by tearing out the dash to find out why the turn signals and hi/low beam stalk was not working. I can't speculate why it happened, but somewhere along the line the five wires must have become disconnected. They were connected when i got the dash off, but in the wrong order. If I ever have to fool with it again, I am going to change it out from five separate wires to one quick connect plug. This time, I just retraced each wire to figure out where it was supposed to be. Hooked it up correctly, it worked. Strange!

    I installed the trim pieces on the outside ends of the windshield. The first one went in just as expected, no drama. Followed the same process, same drills, same screws from the same FFR package, and this on the second time through:



    That is only one broken screw, not two, but still a very frustrating location. I laid two layers with tape on the paint to protect it, then used vice grips to back the screw out. I re-drilled the hole with the same drill bit, put another screw in, and it fit perfectly. Cheap screw I guess. Or perhaps my popeye arm strength!!!

    Following my mentor's lead, I began drilling the holes in the wheel hubs to install set screws to hold the spinner cups in place. I had to borrow a 90 degree drill, and also borrow a really slick tool to hold the tap. Check this thing out. I just attached my 3/8" ratchet handle on this, and was able to turn the tap without hitting the sides of the wheels. Slick!









    This time I applied anti seize paste to the threads, and installed three of the four spinners with the covers over the nuts. It looks really good. I drilled and tapped the fourth wheel, but couldn't install the spinner because i have not yet gotten a replacement cup.

    Tomorrow I am going to work on custom fitting the front over riders.
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  16. #936
    Senior Member wareaglescott's Avatar
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    Cool little tool to hold the tap! Wish I had of known. I ended up cutting my handle down to make mine work!
    When do you start install of the electrically activated hydraulically actuated opening mechanism for the flip top?
    MK4 #8900 - complete kit - Coyote, TKO600, IRS - Delivered 6/28/16 First Start 10/6/16 Go cart - 10/16/16 Build completed - 4/26/17 - 302 days to build my 302 CI Coyote Cobra - Registered and street legal 5/17/17
    Build Thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-build-thread
    PHIL 4:13 INSTAGRAM - @scottsrides

  17. #937
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    First impressions are everything. They can break potential relationships, and sometimes you have to learn to look beyond them. This week I experienced both.

    After less than 300 miles, it became crystal clear that I had to do something immediately about the loud pipes. FFR's stock highly polished pipes look great, but have nothing to mitigate all that noise coming from the big Coyote. My options were pretty clear: Buy an aftermarket pair such as the popular Gas-N pipes, or retrofit the set for which I had already had paid so handsomely. The Gas-N pipes are about $1300, are universally well respected, and are ready to go, just bolt them up. (I just noticed they are on sale right now.) Flowmaster makes a very nice muffler that can be welded into the existing pipes. They come in either 24" or 30" lengths, with the 30" lengths being about 15% more quiet than the shorter version. I have used Flowmasters before, and been very pleased with the quality of the product and the sound produced. They claim that these pipes have an internal coating which helps keep the exterior surface cooler. (Not sure how effective this is.) Two forum members I trust, WarEagleScott and 2BKing, have both used them and are very pleased with the results. It would seem logical that the longer Flowmasters should be more quiet than the Gas-N pipes due solely to longer muffler section. I called around to get quotes for TIG welding and fabrication, and then for polishing. It appeared that the Flowmasters would cost about $450 for the pair, welding was quoted at about $350, and polishing an additional $300. So it appears that I can save a couple hundred bucks by retrofitting my existing pipes, and give some business to some local shops. I ordered up a pair of 30" Flowmasters. (After all that I have done on this car to this point, I don't know why I would be pinching pennies now!! That is a decision that I would come to regret!)

    The new Flowmaster mufflers came in on Tuesday. Wednesday I took the car to a local shop that had been recommended for the job by the shop that did my alignment. They are right next door to each other. The shop is very clean, very nicely appointed, clearly owned and operated by someone who pays attention to the details. It looked good. We discussed the project, and he said he could probably get it done that day. He called me later that day and told me that it would be done the next day, which was no problem, but would I come in to see and approve the hanger location.

    I arrived to find the PS pipe already welded up. First impression: That is one big sausage on the side of the car! Candidly it is not my favorite look, as it is awfully heavy for the look of the car as a whole. However, I had not even heard them yet, so I reserved judgement.



    I noticed that the tip was behind the front lip of the wheel well. I am not sure why he made it quite this long. We discussed it, and I asked him to shorten up the tip section so that the end was no further aft than the trailing edge of the door. He said he would make the change. We examined the hanger idea he had. He was very concerned that the pipe was unsupported too far aft of the FFR support location. These mufflers are VERY heavy. I estimate about 20lbs a piece. He wanted to move the hanger aft so that most of the pipe was supported. I felt his idea had merit, so I approved it. He apologized for not getting it all done that day. I assured him it wasn't any problem. I wasn't going anywhere with it anyway.



    He did a nice job of turning the tip down just a little bit to bounce the sound energy off the asphalt and away from my ears. Not straight down so as to throw gravel up off the tarmac, just enough to reduce the reflected sound.



    He called Thursday to tell me it was done. I asked him for the final bill. He told me it was two and a half times higher than he had estimated!! I expected it to go up a little due to the additional hanger fabrication. No problem for that . But to miss the mark that badly, I was dumbfounded! I thought he had told me their hourly rate was $65, turns out it is $109. Instead of the 2-3 hours he told me it would take, it took him 7.5 hours. I told him I was not at all happy with this bill. I asked him why he was so severely off the mark on his estimate. He told me that it just took longer than expected. (Translation: too bad, so sad.) He did finally cut $100 off the bill, but the damage had already been done. My first impression of this company is either they intentionally misled me (which I doubt) or that they are extremely bad at estimating the time a project will take. I had planned to have this company do the dyno work on the engine after I get all the other items done. I don't think that will be happening. We shall see.

    I now have a pair of custom pipes that cost almost as much as just buying the completed Gas-N product, and i still have to get them polished. The polisher does excellent work, but has a reputation for being erratic on his billing. Similar pieces will have wildly different prices for no appearant reason. These custom Flowmasters are going to be a very expensive option. They had better sound great!

    I drove the car for two hours on Thursday afternoon. I wanted to see if I could tell a difference. I could tell a major difference right away. They are much more smooth, much more quiet, and have removed all the harsh high end. They really are a very significant improvement over the FFR stock pipes. So I am moving beyond my first impressions by learning to like the look because I like the sound mitigation qualities. I am having to let go of my first impressions on how they look and focus on how they sound, which is Excellent!" Solid and powerful, yet they don't scream "look at me, I am having a midlife crisis"!

    Next week I will have to take them off and turn them over to the polisher. He claims he can get them done in a week. I wonder if that means the week before Christmas?!!

    I now wish I had just bought the Gas-N's. Education has it's price tag.
    Last edited by Jazzman; 12-16-2017 at 03:02 AM.
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  18. #938
    Senior Member wareaglescott's Avatar
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    Glad you like the resulting sound. Those things are heavy! I would encourage you to take a look at how I supported them up at the front as well. I think it is a good solution to help support the load.
    MK4 #8900 - complete kit - Coyote, TKO600, IRS - Delivered 6/28/16 First Start 10/6/16 Go cart - 10/16/16 Build completed - 4/26/17 - 302 days to build my 302 CI Coyote Cobra - Registered and street legal 5/17/17
    Build Thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-build-thread
    PHIL 4:13 INSTAGRAM - @scottsrides

  19. #939

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Congratulations On Getting So Far, So Fast With So Many Over The Top Modifications!

    Also, I do really like the look of the length of those pipes.

    They just seem to finish out the car.

  20. #940
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    There are days that you just feel more connected to this FFR family. The day you order your kit, the day it is delivered, the day the motor starts for the first time, the first drive . . . and the day the car breaks down on the side of the road and you get the ride of shame home on the flatbed! Yesterday was one of those days!! But I am getting ahead of myself.

    Three days ago I took a very nice 60+ mile drive. The car behaved beautifully, except for one minor issue. It died while I was stopped at a stoplight. I didn't think I had let off the clutch and stalled it, but the engine just stopped. I attempted to restart it quickly to no avail. (Note to those thinking about a pushbutton electronic ignition system. If the engine dies, you have to turn the car completely off and back on before you can engage the starter. Not a huge deal, but a surprise.) I pushed it to the side of the road, hopped back in, and it fired up. Ok, somehow the Jazzman must have screwed up. No harm, no foul. Drove on home with no further incidents.

    Just before I got home, I decided I should fill up the tank. Last time I filled up I really topped off the tank and had some overflow problems, so this time I stopped at the first click of the pump. The last time this happened, the problem went away as soon as I had driven the car just a bit and the fuel tank was not completely full. When I got home, I could really smell gas, and this time it was dripping significantly from multiple locations. It dripped from the tip of the body just behind the DS rear wheel and from multiple places at the center of the gas tank plastic cover. It did not leak on PS or from the Fuel pipe inlet.







    I pulled the cover off the fuel pump, no leaks evident there.



    I pulled the cover off the fuel level sending unit. It was engulfed in fuel! Ah Hah! Problem found (I hope).



    After installing the fuel pump, I put liquid gasket around the edge to seal it. For some reason that I cannot now remember, I did not put the liquid gasket material around the fuel sending unit. Now I just had to seal the fuel sending unit. But before I can seal it, I have to get all the fuel out and stop it from continuing to leak. Because the PS side of the tank is taller than the center area where the fuel sending unit is, the fuel continues to leak until the fuel level is below the level of the sending unit. I attempted to siphon out some of the fuel, but I could not get my siphon hose into the fuel in the tank. Is there an anti-siphon screen welded into this tank? So I have to drive the car to get some of the fuel out. Well that's not a bad deal is it!!

    It is really cold here right now. The low was 36, and the high was 56. (Yes, I know, you folks from the northern climes are laughing at me. Go ahead, bring on the flames!! I need the heat!!) My blood freezes up at about 72, so I decided I had better drive at the "warmest" part of the day. Yesterday was my bride's 60th birthday. I took her out to breakfast, then a girlfriend was going to take her to lunch and they were going to get their hair and nails done. I was throwing a big birthday party for her at 6pm. I had about three hours while she was gone. I put on my best "Nanook of the north" outfit and headed out into the bone chilling cold. (Ok, perhaps that's a stretch, but it makes the story better!!) I drove for about 10 minutes when I came to a stoplight. The tach dropped to zero, and the car died. I know I didn't slip the clutch this time. 20 tense seconds later, I got the car started again, and took off. About two minutes later, the tach dropped to zero again, the engine died, but this time, it fired itself up. I suspect it was because we were moving and the car effectively "push started" itself. I decided it was time to turn around and head home. The car died several times on the way home, usually but not always as I was slowing down to stop at a stoplight. On the 6th stall, and the 2nd push off the road of the day, the car died for good. Each time I would reset the ignition, I pushed the button to engage the starter and the entire electronic ignition would turn off. I tried to start the car multiple times, but it would not even turn over. I called AAA to get it towed home. It is now 3:30.

    WarEagleScott was kind enough to entertain me via text message while I waited for the tow truck. My "breakdown" turned into a car show as no less than five cars and two police cars stopped to see the car! They all offered to help, but there wasn't much to do but wait. Many took pictures, one little boy wanted to sit in the car.



    4:45pm. The tow truck arrived. The driver loved the car. More photos. He loads the car up and we finally head home at 5:05pm. Home is only about 7 minutes away. At 5:25, the car is finally safely unloaded into the garage. I had just enough time to get ready for the party and head out the door.



    Abby (my puppy) woke me up at 5:45 this morning. After taking care of her, my next thoughts were "what is wrong with the car". I turned on the ignition again, this time checking to see if there is fuel pressure. Nope. No pressure at all. I checked the fuel pump fuse. It's in good shape. I check the rollover switch. It doesn't seem to be disengaged. All the gauges come to life when the ignition button is pushed once (Correct). They all go off when the ignition is pushed a second time (Wrong). I don't hear any noise from the fuel pump. Either the pump is dead (unlikely on a full tank after just 500 miles) or it is not getting power. Power is engaged when the Watston's Streetworks ignition button is pushed the first time. Why do the gauges come on but the fuel pump does not get power? Problem with the Watson's Streetworks ignition box? Perhaps, it has happened before. I had a problem before with the fuel pump, when I crushed the wire when I installed the windshield. I thought I fixed that, but perhaps something broke in that area? When I last had fuel pump problems and found the crushed wire, the car would turn over but was not getting fuel. This time it is getting no fuel and will not turn over. Point of intersection? The ignition box. What else can I check?
    Last edited by Jazzman; 12-23-2017 at 01:12 PM.
    Jazzman

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  21. #941
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    Time to break out a multimeter and check voltage at the pump as well as look for a short to ground. The fact things just completely shut off makes me think there's a short and the electronics are turning off to protect themselves.

  22. #942
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    You are reading my mind. I did pull out the multi-meter. No juice at all at the fuel pump, no pressure at the fuel pressure gauge. I turned the ignition system on and off several times. Most of the time it was the same old thing. The last time, however, I heard noises that seemed to come from the engine bay. It sounded like it was trying to start, but did not engage the starter. I am not sure what all those noises might have been. I went back and checked the power at the fuel pump. Nothing. Then I checked the fuel pressure gauge: It had clearly been pressurized, but was falling by that point. It was at about 42psi and falling. Within a minute, it had fallen to 20psi. Thus far, it has not done this again. There is clearly some sort of a short somewhere. I am going to crack into the upper footbox to see if I can find a loose or broken wire or ground somewhere.

    I checked the feed from the ignition module out to the ignition input on the coyote PDB. No power with ignition off (good), no power on first push to awaken the system (good), 12.6 volts when the button is pushed and held as if to start the car. (seemingly good).
    Last edited by Jazzman; 12-23-2017 at 04:17 PM.
    Jazzman

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  23. #943
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    Does the coyote not attempt to start the engine if there’s no fuel pressure? Did you check voltage at the pump connector with the pump disconnected? I wonder if there’s voltage with it disconnected. And you checked the fuel pump fuse with the multimeter? Voltage on both sides of that fuse?

  24. #944
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by networkcrasher View Post
    Does the coyote not attempt to start the engine if there’s no fuel pressure? Did you check voltage at the pump connector with the pump disconnected? I wonder if there’s voltage with it disconnected. And you checked the fuel pump fuse with the multimeter? Voltage on both sides of that fuse?
    No, the Coyote doesn't sense fuel pressure. But if the Ignition Relay Trigger wire in the Coyote pigtail (#5, light green) doesn't get +12V with the key on, the PCM isn't going to call for the fuel pump to run. If there is +12V on the trigger wire, the pump will be powered briefly and shut off until the Starter Motor Request (SMR) in the Coyote pigtail (#3, light blue) gets +12V, initiating the start sequence. Fuel pressure will bleed off pretty quickly if the engine isn't started immediately. So that's not necessarily a concern.

    Assuming there are no blown fuses and the inertia switch isn't tripped, the Ignition Relay Trigger wire is the first place I'd look. The wildcard here though is the Watson's Streetworks box, which I believe from previous discussions, is where this trigger voltage is coming from.
    Last edited by edwardb; 12-23-2017 at 05:20 PM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
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  25. #945
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    I removed the dash (yes again!!) and looked around for anything surprising. I checked grounds. I checked the fuel pump wires. I rechecked the inertia switch. All looked fine. I tried to fire up the car, and . . . voila! it fired right up. Fuel pump pressure is holding nice and steady at 58psi. I let it idle for 15 minutes to see if it would die. Nope. I shut it off and restarted it. No problem. I tried both key fobs. No problem. Hmmm. This is a double edged sword. I'm glad it is running, but I had not found anything wrong, which means it is likely that it will occur again.

    I returned to the Watson's ignition module. I checked every wire, every connection as far as I could go to make sure it was tight and well sealed. All looked fine untii this one:



    I am not sure how or where this got crimped or rubbed, but this just doesn't look right. The insulation on the wire is partially scraped away, and the wire is partially exposed. It is near to some exposed aluminum under behind the dash, so It could ground out. This is one of the three wires that runs from the ignition module to the ignition button. Watson's instructions don't say exactly what that wire does, but it clearly is important. I clipped it to repair the damage, and the car would not start. I reconnected it solidly and then zip tied it to the other wires to keep it from further abrasion. Once again, the car fired right up. I hope that I have eliminated that problem. I guess time will tell.

    While I waited for the car to stop running unexpectedly, I did some testing of the effectiveness of the "internal heat shielding" on the Flowmaster mufflers. It turns out it works very well. I tested three times, but only took photos once. Each time the results were basically the same.

    First I checked the temp of the headers just outside the engine. The photo just happened to catch the temp going from 289 to 293.



    Next I checked the surface temp of the Flowmaster Mufflers:



    Yep, that says 80 degrees. I was shocked! I very carefully touched the muffler with my hand. It was about the same temp as my body. I checked again after the engine had run for 15 mintues, and the results were still quite impressive. The Flowmasters never got above 125. I drink my tea hotter than that! I don't know if these results would continue after a very long drive at higher RPM's, but clearly something inside these mufflers are doing a good job of holding the heat inside.

    I could finally return my attention to the original problem, the fuel sending unit leak. I hoped that I had used up enough fuel to allow the sending unit to be removed. I took off the retaining ring and found that the fuel was just low enough not to come out. I found that the rubber O ring that was supposed to seal the sending unit to the tank was there and was not cracked, crimped, or broken, but it wasn't sealing either. I carefully cleaned everywhere around the hole and on both sides of the sending unit. I applied liquid gasket maker to the underside of the sending unit, installed the unit, then applied it the outside of the retaining ring "just in case". I will let that dry for 24 hours before I try to drive the car again. I hope that will end my problems with leaking fuel!!
    Last edited by Jazzman; 12-24-2017 at 12:24 AM.
    Jazzman

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  26. #946
    Senior Member wareaglescott's Avatar
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    Sounds like a productive day with good results. Hope that fixed the ignition problem.
    MK4 #8900 - complete kit - Coyote, TKO600, IRS - Delivered 6/28/16 First Start 10/6/16 Go cart - 10/16/16 Build completed - 4/26/17 - 302 days to build my 302 CI Coyote Cobra - Registered and street legal 5/17/17
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  27. #947
    Straversi's Avatar
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    And you made it to the party on time! Well done. Car and relationship saved.
    Those AZ winter evenings are no joke. It can get down right crisp with a chance of chilly. It's been so cold in Los Angeles recently that I've had to wear long pants in the garage. Seriously.
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    Mk IV #8901 - Complete kit, Coyote, TKO-600, IRS. Ordered 5/23/16, Delivered 7/14/16, First Start 8/13/17, First Go-Kart 10/22/17, Registered and Completed 10/18/18. Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...V-Coyote-Build Graduation Thread: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...-Roadster-8901

  28. #948
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    I have found I can't reach the emergency brake when I have my safety belts on. So I have two choices: 1) Don't wear the safety belts, or 2) replace the emergency brake. Given these two options, I have decided to jump in with both feet and order an E-Stopp Electronic emergency brake actuator. I read about it in other posts, and those comments were generally positive. Hopefully I will never need it! I hope I can get it into the tranny tunnel area now that the tranny is already in place. THis could be fun. Any comments about your experience with this piece would be appreciated.
    Jazzman

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  29. #949
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    Had a great day at the Barrett Jackson auction today. Great weather: sunny, 72 degrees, light breeze. Had nice conversations with Tony Zullo and Ryan Valin. Spent some time with AZPete. Good People!! Perhaps its just the first day of the show (auction starts Tuesday) but it seems like there are fewer cars. There are still a very large number of cars to be sold, but it seems the tents are not quite as full as previous years. It also seems that there are fewer "ultra high end" cars. The scarcity of cars combined with the improved economy might make for higher sales prices this year. It will be interesting to watch. I am not a bidder this year, nor am I a seller. Just a spectator this year. There is still PLENTY to see! Want an armored personel carrier? They've got one. A 150mph racing cigarette boat? Check. Lots of the standards like corvettes, camero's, mustangs. A pleasantly surprising array of Porsches. More late 60's/early 70's Bronco's than I have ever seen at the show. Want a Fox body mustang? They have two full rows of them! I still think the best thing you can do for a Fox Body mustang is tear it's heart out an put it into a Factory Five! Seeing two rows of them only reinforced that opinion.

    Other than just enjoying the show, I had only one thing I was looking for was a four post lift that will fit in my large but somewhat oddly shaped garage. The front 1/3 of my garage is "normal" height, and the back 2/3rds has a 2' raised ceiling Because of the garage door, the opener, and the opener track, my max height for any posts is 88". The rear of my garage has a 4" tall stepped up area about 20" wide. Therefore the level floor maximum length is about 182", accounting for the curve area in the garage door. Every four post lift I have looked at thus far is either too tall or too long, or both. Usually too tall. I finally found one that seems to check all the boxes: A Direct-Lift ProPark 8S. It has a max post height of 83", maximum total length without the approach ramps of 176". Their "show special" includes two 33" metal approach ramps, four plastic drip trays, one metal jack tray (no jack), and four wheel caster kit. They are asking $2279, and offering $200 off of shipping or a $200 discount if I pick it up. I can pick it up on my new trailer. (More on that in the next post.) Has anyone purchased this unit? Are you pleased with it? Any reservations?
    Last edited by Jazzman; 01-14-2018 at 12:12 AM.
    Jazzman

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  30. #950
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    I have been planning to buy a trailer for some time, and finally pulled the trigger a week ago. I purchased a Quik-Load Trailer. Check out the video at the bottom of the first page. This thing makes loading any very low vehicle a piece of cake! The bed is the ramp, and it is only a 14 degree angle. I can drive FlipTop right onto the trailer, open the doors without hitting the fenders, and do the whole load in less than 3 minutes! It really is slick. It has locked storage boxes for tie downs built right into the bed, built in floor lighting, four built in "D" ring tie down points, built in brakes, the works. I did not spring for the fibreglass rock guard. I will build one of my own out of diamond plate.

    Last edited by Jazzman; 01-14-2018 at 12:05 PM.
    Jazzman

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  31. #951
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
    ...Because of the garage door, the opener, and the opener track, my max height for any posts is 88"...
    Kevin,
    Barrett-Jackson is always a good time and makes for a fantastic car show! Sounds like you have a 7' tall overhead door which are generally only used these days with an 8 foot ceiling height. What does your garage measure floor to ceiling? Nine feet or more has been most common the past 20 years or so and if this is the case with yours the garage door tracks can be retrofitted to a "high lift" configuration that brings everything up closer to the ceiling which would gain you additional height and open up options for some of the taller lifts.

    Cheers,
    Jeff

  32. #952
    Senior Member wareaglescott's Avatar
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    I was going to suggest looking at a high lift opener as well. That is what I have. It is great and keeps things out of the way of the lift.

    That trailer is really slick! Never seen one like that.
    MK4 #8900 - complete kit - Coyote, TKO600, IRS - Delivered 6/28/16 First Start 10/6/16 Go cart - 10/16/16 Build completed - 4/26/17 - 302 days to build my 302 CI Coyote Cobra - Registered and street legal 5/17/17
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  33. #953
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    Kevin,
    Barrett-Jackson is always a good time and makes for a fantastic car show! Sounds like you have a 7' tall overhead door which are generally only used these days with an 8 foot ceiling height. What does your garage measure floor to ceiling? Nine feet or more has been most common the past 20 years or so and if this is the case with yours the garage door tracks can be retrofitted to a "high lift" configuration that brings everything up closer to the ceiling which would gain you additional height and open up options for some of the taller lifts.

    Cheers,
    Jeff
    You would think so, wouldn't you. You are partially right. Here is a photo of my garage ceiling:



    The front part of the garage ceiling is 8'5" tall. Directly above it is the slanted exterior roof. (Reference the new photo on Post #950) I considered raising this, but it is just too cost prohibitive. The back half of my garage is 9' tall. Quite useable. Between the two is a massive beam that holds up the entire 2nd floor of the house. It is only 8' tall, and is clearly not going anywhere. I do have a couple of minor options. I am going to replace the garage door opener and track down the center with a wall mounted, axel driven garage door opener. This will eliminate that junk and free up quite a bit of additional vertical space.

    There is a bit of additional space between the garage door and the beam. The garage door needs to be serviced anyway, so am going to have the tracks extended about 5-6" to snug the garage door right up against the beam, getting it as high as possible. I am also going to add windows in the garage door for better light, but that won't help the vertical height.



    Finally I am going to remove those shelves attached to the beam to open up a bit more vertical space. It's not much, but it's all I can do with what I have.
    Jazzman

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  34. #954
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    Now a pop quiz: How do you know that you are in Scottsdale and it is the third week of January, Barrett Jackson Week? When you go to Costco and park your Ford truck next to a McLaren!! Now THAT's a grocery-getter!!



    (And doesn't my truck look nice parked next to it!!!)
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

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  35. #955
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    I sense a pattern developing in your color choices.

    Both the roadster and the truck are lovely colors! my first three vehicles (4 red so far total) were various reds as well.

  36. #956
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    One step forward, two steps back

    FlipTop's base concept has always been "a modern interpretation of the Shelby Cobra". I have never been focused on making her "period correct". I wanted to update the look to fit current high end automotive standards. She didn't start out to be a show car, but that die was cast when I decided to put an amazing Candy paint job on her. She is simply breathtaking in the sun. The problem is that the interior, while certainly a fine first attempt for me, did not really rise to the same level as the professionally applied paint. While FlipTop was still at the body shop drying and hardening, an old friend of my painter dropped by the shop. Scott is the owner of one of the very elite custom upholstery and automotive interior design houses in Arizona. He absolutely loved FlipTop. He told my painter "I want to do that car!" My painter encouraged me to give that interior some "Next Level $#!t". After I got the car pretty much put together at home, I realized that the car is very good, but could be better. I decided to at least talk to Scott about what he might want to do to it.

    As soon as I met him, I had the same level of absolute trust in him that I have in my painter. His resume of prior projects reads like a Who's Who of the automotive world. He has done cars for SEMA, award winners all over the country, cars for athletes and movie stars, done Lear Jet interiors, everything custom and original. And "He WANTS to do my car"!! Wow. He told me "I want to have my name associated with your car". That's quite a compliment for a first time builder. We talked for a while about ideas, and I told him I needed to run this over with my wife. He was absolutely supportive of me doing that. No high pressure at all. I went home, talked to my bride, and she was unequivocal: "Absolutely . . . YES!" She agreed that the interior didn't keep up with the exterior, and we really should "finish strong". So on January 2nd, I delivered FlipTop to Scott's shop for yet more finish work. I won't give away all the secrets yet, but here is the laundry list of item that he will do:

    -- Completely new Dash (the Zebrawood is still in, but . . . more on that later)
    -- new transmission tunnel console
    -- Custom designed seats
    -- New (working!!) fully hidden stereo with controls discretely mounted in the console
    -- A custom grille in the oval radiator hole in the front of the body
    -- New Black Bentley Carpet
    -- Modified gas pedal, possibly custom brake and clutch pedals
    -- Custom covers around the door hinge arms
    -- Custom lighting in the cockpit
    -- Carpeted Trunk with some additional custom work
    -- At least three, perhaps four, hidden compartments
    -- Custom Door trim

    I am sure there is more, but that's enough for now. I stopped by a week ago, and this is what she looked like. The pipes are off because Scott took them over to the polisher for me. So he wouldn't have to re-fit the doors, he removed them by just pulling the hinge pins. The bolts never moved, so the doors should fit perfectly as soon as he remounts them.



    Jazzman

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  37. #957
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeAIII View Post
    I sense a pattern developing in your color choices.

    Both the roadster and the truck are lovely colors! my first three vehicles (4 red so far total) were various reds as well.
    Yes, you are right! For years I had silver cars. I think four in a row. When I went to buy my next car, my wife said I could get any color I wanted, but no more Silver!! Now my painter wants to repaint my truck to match FlipTop! I don't think so!!
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

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  38. #958
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
    Yes, you are right! For years I had silver cars. I think four in a row. When I went to buy my next car, my wife said I could get any color I wanted, but no more Silver!! Now my painter wants to repaint my truck to match FlipTop! I don't think so!!
    One thing I remember my father mentioning regarding the color of a new car he was looking at was "but I have already had one that color”

    That has stuck with me regarding color and make/model. So far I have had 4 red, 3 grey, 3 black, 3 blue, 1 white, 1 green and at least one I am forgetting. All spread across continents and market segments.

    Now back to your regularly scheduled amazing FFR build!

  39. #959
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Kevin, when you told me last week that FlipTop was in for some upholstery work, I was hoping it was being done by Unique because that are absolutely the best in AZ, or perhaps the USA. I was very glad yesterday at Barrett-Jackson when you said Unique had FlipTop in their shop! And, your new trailer is absolutely an ingenious design that makes me say "why didn't I think of that?" because its so logical. Thanks for the time at Barrett-Jackson on Saturday and seeya Tuesday.

    After seeing your McLaren @ Costco pic, I went to Costco and saw this car in a Handicap spot!! Yup, it's Scottsdale in January.
    Ferrari at Costco.jpg
    Last edited by AZPete; 01-14-2018 at 04:42 PM. Reason: added Ferrari pic
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

  40. #960
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    The interior is coming along. Like all other aspects of the build, progress is slow but steady. After the original interior was removed, they sent the entire car out for two minor projects. I could have done both myself, but in order to stay on schedule and in the queue for the interior work, we decided to just have a shop do them.

    The first was the installation of an EStopp electric emergency brake. I wished I could have gotten some photos before they took the car off the rack because the work is great. They custom made brackets to hold the EStopp unit. They bolted the front of the unit to the front bolt of the transmission support rack. The back sits on top of the Transmission support rack. It is entirely above the major frame rails, and nestled neatly into unused space. They painted all the brackets gloss black before installing the unit permanently.



    This is the best I could get from the top:



    They also rewired the gauges on the dash to add quick disconnect plugs. When that was done, they removed the gauges and sent them out to have the lights changed to red LED's. Not sure if the faces are being changed or not. No photos of this.

    When the car returned to the upholsterer, he filled up the hole left by the removal of the hand operated emergency brake. Black Bentley carpet was installed all around. This carpet is so much nicer than the stock stuff. Thicker, tighter weave, very durable but quite soft to the touch. On all future projects, I am going to install this Bentley Carpet the first time around!! Highly recommended.

    They stripped the stock seats and installed sheet metal on the entire backrest.



    Heavy duty foam was reinstalled on the seat and back. I was shocked to feel how much additional legroom was provided by this modification. The back of the seat feels much more solid, and I am sure that I picked up a full two inches of legroom. The seats are reinstalled using the same 1.5" steel supports under the front of the seat to tilt the seat back just a bit. I am sure that I would have picked up 3.5"-4" of legroom if I had not tilted the seat back. For those of you who are tall and and want to get every inch of leg room, my upholster would be willing to do your seats in similar fashion. PM if you are interested. The added leg room is so significant for me that if it had been just a bit further back, I would not have been able to fully depress the clutch. It is much more comfortable now. When I arrived to check out the progress, he had me sit in the seat and put an additional layer of foam in the lumbar area. This really made the seat comfortable.



    He has stripped the leather off the transmission tunnel cover, and drew an approximate shape of the console that will be added.

    Last edited by Jazzman; 01-29-2018 at 12:45 AM.
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

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