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Thread: Tesla P85 Powered 818C

  1. #1
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    Tesla P85 Powered 818C

    INTRO: Ok, time for another EV Project. After many years of my family talking about wanting to buy a Tesla, I finally convinced them to let me build one for them instead. I don't have enough time to do another ground-up build so I went the kit car route. Budget is the primary constraint on all projects but with significantly more budget on this project compared to others, I hope to cut a few corners as possible. I bought a 2002 WRX off of Facebook Marketplace a few months back for $1000 and completely stripped the car selling close to $5000 in parts from the car while keeping parts that I needed (A alot of that money was due to me not going with ICE). I bought the drive unit from a Tesla off of eBay making sure to avoid flooded and rear-ended crashes as they are usually severely damaged in such accidents and thus unusable. I will control the tesla motor with an Advantics VCU (due to Tesla OTA Updates and CAN IDs constantly changing, it is close to impossible to get one spinning with stock DSP logic by CAN Captures thus the board requires a reflash from a company that specializes in reverse engineering Tesla Drive units, Advantics.) I will use a Digital Dash from AEM and reprogram the DBC Files to read data from the Cars CAN bus. To make full power I will use 2 chevy spark EV 2016 batteries. These are LG Chem/ GM Gen 2 battery packs. They can make crazy power and also are safe to fast charge (Up to 50kw a piece). This means that I can safely charge 2 full packs using CHAdeMO a very easy standard to implement compared to CCS GreenPhy/PLC Nonsense. Charge (0-100%) times should be around 45mins with a 50kw DC fast charging.


    UPDATES: I will update the google photos album and my Youtube but I will also try to do little writeps on my progress here in case people want to do a similar build.

    CURRENT CHALLENGE: As of now, I am working on modifying the frame to fit the Tesla Drive Unit. The motor makes a ridiculous amount of power for its size so I'm overdesigning the mounting points everywhere I can.

    Basic Specs:

    FFR 818C + 2002 WRX Donor
    Tesla LDU Sport 2014 (1200a IGBT power stages making around 636hp)
    Advantics VCU
    AEM CD5 Digital Dash
    2x LG Chem - Chevy Spark EV 2016 Battery pack 36kwh around 150 miles of range
    CHAdeMO + J1772 Charge support
    2x Lear 3.3kw OBCs Gen 2
    Delphi 2.2kw Bidirectional DC/DC Converter
    Orion BMS V1

    Projected weight: 2100 lbs


    Google Photos Album:https://photos.app.goo.gl/akbdh1tJnDSf5RMD9

    Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY0...qAJ0CHL2w4W53Q

    Any questions/comments/suggestions are welcome as always!

  2. #2
    JohnK's Avatar
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    Sounds like a very cool project. Any concern with going the CHadeMO route? Nissan's abandonment of it and adoption of CCS can't be a good sign for the future of CHadeMO, I would think.
    MkIV Roadster build: Gen 2 Coyote, IRS, TKO600. Ordered 10/24/18. Delivered 1/29/19. Engine installed 8/8/21. First start 9/12/21. First go-kart 9/17/21. Off to paint 4/11/22. Back from paint 12/30/22. Build thread here.

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    Subscribed, please put together a build thread so we can see the progress. The final result should be a lot of fun!
    MK4 base kit, 2004 Mach 1 donor, 4.6L DOHC, TR-3650 5-speed, narrowed stock axle with 3.55 gears and TruTrac, PS, PB, ABS, 17" Halibrand replica wheels, dual roll bars, Kirkey high back seats, with paint by Jeff Miller, registered 9/2014, sold 3/1/2018.
    New project, 1970 Mustang Fastback Coyote powered restomod. Started 10/14/16.
    http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/bu...mod-build.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnK View Post
    Sounds like a very cool project. Any concern with going the CHadeMO route? Nissan's abandonment of it and adoption of CCS can't be a good sign for the future of CHadeMO, I would think.
    CHAdeMO is dying but at only $150 for a vehicle-side connector (through Alibaba) I couldn't pass up the opportunity. Also in the SF bay area (where I am from) the DC fast chargers usually have both plugs CCS and CHAdeMO. This infrastructure is likely not to change for a while. I know CCS is 100% more common and the number of them is growing but the cost of implementation in a DIY EV as of now is high and requires significant knowledge. Since it is combined with J1772, it should be an easy upgrade down the road especially after the folks over at Openinverter finish reversing engineering the BMW i3 LIM Box making it work reliably on stations worldwide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan_C View Post
    Subscribed, please put together a build thread so we can see the progress. The final result should be a lot of fun!
    I will try my best! As for now I will continue to upload pictures on the goolge photos album I setup above. Thanks for your interest.

  8. #6
    Senior Member J R Jones's Avatar
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    kim3, I am intrigued by your concept, and reviewed a couple videos, so questions:
    You are running 636 hp 2WD, not awd?
    FFR recommended the motor in front of the axle, but that would require running the drive in reverse, and the lube system will not allow that?
    So, you will have a rear weight bias and lots of power. You know about snap oversteer I assume. Have you predicted weight and distribution?

    I intend to repower my 818, electric is looking good.
    Are there other motors with drive behind the motor? A cursory look suggests hybrid rear axle motors are kinda puny.
    With your research do you know of a motor closer to 300hp?
    thx, jim

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    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Where are you located?
    There is one 818C with Tesla motor(s) in Ontario Canada for quite a few years, now. Maybe you know him.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    Where are you located?
    There is one 818C with Tesla motor(s) in Ontario Canada for quite a few years, now. Maybe you know him.
    The EV Controls 818C is what you're referring to I think. Awesome project! I do not know the guy however. He uses his vehicle as a test bed for his CAN Spoofing Tesla Drive unit controller.


    I am located in California.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J R Jones View Post
    kim3, I am intrigued by your concept, and reviewed a couple videos, so questions:
    You are running 636 hp 2WD, not awd?
    FFR recommended the motor in front of the axle, but that would require running the drive in reverse, and the lube system will not allow that?
    So, you will have a rear weight bias and lots of power. You know about snap oversteer I assume. Have you predicted weight and distribution?

    I intend to repower my 818, electric is looking good.
    Are there other motors with drive behind the motor? A cursory look suggests hybrid rear axle motors are kinda puny.
    With your research do you know of a motor closer to 300hp?
    thx, jim
    The weight distribution with be 60/40 ~ish and yes I am worried about snap oversteering. AWD is possible by using a P85D/P100D front drive unit (AKA SDU). The controller I am using can actually control both at the same time with traction control implementation! Budget is holding me back on that end, otherwise I would make it AWD. Keep in mind just because the motor can make 636 HP doesn't mean I will use it all. The Advantics VCU that I am using to control the drive unit has all sort of programable limits that you can set over CAN. Also you can run the drive unit in reverse with a replacement aftermarket oil pump from ZeroEV in the UK. That being said I was able to fit the motor by doing some frame mods and fabricating a subframe.

    If you want to make around 300hp a small drive unit will do the job nicely paired with an appropriately rated traction pack. You cant beat the price to performance of OEM Motor/Inverter/Gearbox combos.

  13. #10
    Senior Member J R Jones's Avatar
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    Kim3, I have not been here long enough to have seen precedents of motor power and your predicted weight distribution.
    I did drive a replica GT40 with a VW flat four behind the axle and the front end did not inspire confidence. Despite auxiliary weight, understeer and brake lock-up were issues.
    It was not an impressive build in all regards, but lessons were learned.
    Thanks for the update. I did find the 85 series Tesla has the power I mentioned. Steep learning curve for me.

    The Tesla drive gears are likely not straight cut, helical is likely. I have no experience running helicals backwards. I would be concerned about gear durability despite revised lubrication.
    jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by J R Jones View Post
    Kim3, I have not been here long enough to have seen precedents of motor power and your predicted weight distribution.
    I did drive a replica GT40 with a VW flat four behind the axle and the front end did not inspire confidence. Despite auxiliary weight, understeer and brake lock-up were issues.
    It was not an impressive build in all regards, but lessons were learned.
    Thanks for the update. I did find the 85 series Tesla has the power I mentioned. Steep learning curve for me.

    The Tesla drive gears are likely not straight cut, helical is likely. I have no experience running helicals backwards. I would be concerned about gear durability despite revised lubrication.
    jim
    Again, the motor can always be detuned. One of the reasons I went with a tesla drive unit is the packaging, efficiency and reliability. The inverter alone is built so far ahead of its time. Tesla gears are helical too (on all of their drive units I'm pretty sure). Keep in mind we are talking 12inch rear bias over the rear axle something that is far less than an entire engine and trans in both weight and distance.

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    Update: The drive unit is tacked into place (with very minimal chassis mods!) I will finish the welds up at a future date on TIG. I received and installed the Advantics VCU as well as reflashed DSP/Logic board. Next up is getting custom drive shafts made for the motor. Here is some pictures of the build so far.

    IMG_0708.jpg

    IMG_0957.jpg

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  17. #13
    Senior Member hineas's Avatar
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    This is an awesome project. I'm definitely going to be following
    Mk4 Roadster with BluePrint 347 with Holley EFI and solid axle rear end.
    Build thread
    Body work and paint thread

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  19. #14
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    So what axles are you going to use? 12in long? But what specs? Diameter, splines, any mods to Subie hubs/spindles, etc....

    You may be right about that Ontarian 818Tesla, but what about yours, will you be using it mostly on the never-rainy-streets or beautiful CA?

    I hope you will keep us frequently updated, very curious to see all the design mods you will go with to fit this unit!
    I did subscribe to your channel.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    So what axles are you going to use? 12in long? But what specs? Diameter, splines, any mods to Subie hubs/spindles, etc....

    You may be right about that Ontarian 818Tesla, but what about yours, will you be using it mostly on the never-rainy-streets or beautiful CA?

    I hope you will keep us frequently updated, very curious to see all the design mods you will go with to fit this unit!
    I did subscribe to your channel.
    Thanks for your interest and subscribing to my YouTube.

    I will be using custom axles (from driveshaft shop) and I might need to add STI Rear spindles from a 2006 as the spline is physically larger due to the power of the tesla drive unit. I am designing the car to be driveable in any weather so fully waterproofing all the electronics and making some water tight battery boxes. Just as a heads up I might drop off the radar for a few months as I am going back to college and cannot work on the car during that time. Otherwise I will be updating as soon as I make meaningful progress.

  21. #16
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    Great project! I look forward to following your build.
    I have had my my Electric FFR MK2 Roadster on the road since 2016. I had plans to eventually change over to a model S drivetrain, but found my chassis would need extensive modifications due to the width of the motor- inverter . I see people splitting and stacking the two now. This will work, so I think this might inspire me to move forward. When I do it will either be a ModelS or Model3 motor.
    Bye for now, Jeff McCabe

  22. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmccabe View Post
    Great project! I look forward to following your build.
    I have had my my Electric FFR MK2 Roadster on the road since 2016. I had plans to eventually change over to a model S drivetrain, but found my chassis would need extensive modifications due to the width of the motor- inverter . I see people splitting and stacking the two now. This will work, so I think this might inspire me to move forward. When I do it will either be a ModelS or Model3 motor.
    Bye for now, Jeff McCabe
    Thanks for the interest and I would love to check out your electric MK2. Im pretty close to San Jose.

  23. #18
    Senior Member J R Jones's Avatar
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    kim3, I have researched the Model 3 RWD motor application and it looks good to me, but....
    I researched the battery and find dimensions / weight: (inches) 85L X 58W X 4.1H and 1060 - 1200 lbs.
    Pretty big for my 818.
    I have seen a ten second electric AWD 818 and he ran someone else's batteries (VOLT?) but to get the performance, how much smaller can they be?
    jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by J R Jones View Post
    kim3, I have researched the Model 3 RWD motor application and it looks good to me, but....
    I researched the battery and find dimensions / weight: (inches) 85L X 58W X 4.1H and 1060 - 1200 lbs.
    Pretty big for my 818.
    I have seen a ten second electric AWD 818 and he ran someone else's batteries (VOLT?) but to get the performance, how much smaller can they be?
    jim
    The 818C from EV Controls uses Gen 1 Chevy Volt packs. Those packs are known to have a high discharge rating and can make alot of power. The Tesla model 3 drive unit is a good choice for sure too. I would look into a Kia Soul EV Battery pack or something similar, The Soul uses Lipo based pouch cells which have a super high discharge compared to Tesla (using 21700 cells optomized for energy weight density, not power). Look around for any salvage EV battery packs there is a ton of info online.

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    UPDATE: Worked today on building up one of the battery boxes in the rear. I plan to use Riv-nuts to hold the brackets in place. Also I learned that STI rear and front Spindles are something that I should be considering as they are much stronger than the spindles on the WRX. Since I'm using the Tesla Drive unit I figured it might be a good idea to pick some up. Problem right now is that they are super expensive and I cant seem to find any new if anyone knows where I can pick some up please let me know. I need to get them ordered ASAP so I can get the custom drive shafts made.

    IMG_0984.jpg

    IMG_1012.jpg

  26. #21
    Senior Member J R Jones's Avatar
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    kim3, I too have a 2002 donor, so your comment on STI parts upgrade intrigued me. I could not see a difference in WRX/STI however the parts changed in later years (post 2006?) but those supposedly do not fit a 2002. I am unsure if it is a fitment issue or just different.
    BTW the Kia Soul EV batteries are 639lb each, I have not found dimensions. Looks like they doubled output for 2020.
    jim

  27. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by J R Jones View Post
    kim3, I too have a 2002 donor, so your comment on STI parts upgrade intrigued me. I could not see a difference in WRX/STI however the parts changed in later years (post 2006?) but those supposedly do not fit a 2002. I am unsure if it is a fitment issue or just different.
    BTW the Kia Soul EV batteries are 639lb each, I have not found dimensions. Looks like they doubled output for 2020.
    jim
    Depends on what parts you're talking about. STI 2004 spindles are 27 spline vs 25 WRX spline as far as I can tell. Otherwise there are slight casting differences from what I see in my research.

  28. #23
    Senior Member J R Jones's Avatar
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    kim3, Ahh, I did not look at axles and hubs.
    I am concerned about how to integrate the Subaru shafts with the Tesla output gear splines. It is optimistic to think the CVs will marry-up.
    BTW as mentioned in an earlier thread on this site, the axle bearings in the rear uprights (spindle) are not robust. Later Subaru vehicles upgraded to a bolt-on bearing carrier, but I do not know if it can be incorporated into an 818, or if the bearings are more robust. The roller style bearing has lower thrust load capacity than ball bearings like Mitsubishi uses in the EVO.
    jim

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    UPDATE:

    Today I finished mounting the Tesla Motor and fully welding/painting the brackets I made to fix it to the frame. I was going to TIG but got lazy so MIG it was lol.

    I'm leaving for college in a few days so this might be a good stopping point and time for me to clean up. I will most likely update in December.

    77535D6D-8549-4A26-B86D-28C4E5EC6B06.jpg

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    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    You actually bolted the engine mounts to the frame? That's a great idea, makes it a lot easier in case of major maintenance or repair or anything, you can get it out of the way.

    Unless those MIG welds besides the bolts are in fact welding the engine mount to the frame? Then what are the bolts for?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    You actually bolted the engine mounts to the frame? That's a great idea, makes it a lot easier in case of major maintenance or repair or anything, you can get it out of the way.

    Unless those MIG welds besides the bolts are in fact welding the engine mount to the frame? Then what are the bolts for?
    It is slotted and welded to another plate like so:

    IMG_1028.jpg

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    Do you follow Dennis Palatov?

    Do you follow Dennis Palatov's EV work, particularly his D9? https://www.dpcars.net/d9/index.htm
    The D8 is also available as a EV.
    He has formed a sister company based on his fast swap battery modules.
    Their D2EV attempt at Pike's Peak:


    The Palatov FB page: https://www.facebook.com/PalatovMotorsport
    "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
    Owner: Colonel Red Racing
    eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
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  36. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt.Gator View Post
    Do you follow Dennis Palatov's EV work, particularly his D9? https://www.dpcars.net/d9/index.htm
    The D8 is also available as a EV.
    He has formed a sister company based on his fast swap battery modules.
    Their D2EV attempt at Pike's Peak:


    The Palatov FB page: https://www.facebook.com/PalatovMotorsport
    I have not seen this before. Thank you for linking it, very interesting. I really like the pushrod-based suspension design.

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    I'm looking at doing something similar as well, and I'm considering a Tesla drivetrain, but also others. What's the final drive ratio of the rotation of the electric motor and the wheel? It seemed like the Tesla unit has a 4.5 final drive ratio? So like with a 25" tall tire 8000 RPM is 132MPH? Does all that sound about right?

    If you don't use a Tesla drive train, how do you gear down before you hit the axle? Use a traditional diff? What if you go dual motor? Diff in front and back for all wheel drive or like, drive back wheels with two motors somehow?

    Is there a better place to ask these questions?

  38. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dokujaryu View Post
    I'm looking at doing something similar as well, and I'm considering a Tesla drivetrain, but also others. What's the final drive ratio of the rotation of the electric motor and the wheel? It seemed like the Tesla unit has a 4.5 final drive ratio? So like with a 25" tall tire 8000 RPM is 132MPH? Does all that sound about right?

    If you don't use a Tesla drive train, how do you gear down before you hit the axle? Use a traditional diff? What if you go dual motor? Diff in front and back for all wheel drive or like, drive back wheels with two motors somehow?

    Is there a better place to ask these questions?
    Regarding other places to look: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/. I am doing a scratch build Tesla now using a Tesla S Sport large drive unit. The final drive is 9.xx. The motor spins north of 16,000 rpm. Tesla uses large diameter wheels, 20 or 21". The differential is integral to the drive unit. If you wanted to mount it longitudinally for some reason and run it through a differential, Zero ev in the UK makes a replacement gear set that gets you down to the 4.xx range. And I recall seeing someone who has a u-joint adapter to run a normal drive shaft...don't remember who.

  39. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dokujaryu View Post
    I'm looking at doing something similar as well, and I'm considering a Tesla drivetrain, but also others. What's the final drive ratio of the rotation of the electric motor and the wheel? It seemed like the Tesla unit has a 4.5 final drive ratio? So like with a 25" tall tire 8000 RPM is 132MPH? Does all that sound about right?

    If you don't use a Tesla drive train, how do you gear down before you hit the axle? Use a traditional diff? What if you go dual motor? Diff in front and back for all wheel drive or like, drive back wheels with two motors somehow?

    Is there a better place to ask these questions?
    I would use the transfer case and not mount the motor longitudinally if possible. Might as well reuse as much of Tesla's engineering as possible.

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    UPDATE:

    After some consideration I decided to transfer colleges in order to work on projects like this more often. Because of this, I expect some significant progress in the upcoming months!

    Over thanksgiving break I was able to secure a deal on 4 corners of WRX STI 2004 as well as 2/4 pot breaks all around for 580. I decided to put a new wheel bearing in and clean them up while I was at it since I didn't trust the (only "60k miles") that the seller was advertising. Upon further inspection I wouldn't be surprised if these knuckles were used in an actual rally car since they were packed with dirt. These knuckles support the larger 27 spline rear hubs and are much better suited to take up the power of the Tesla LDU. I also decided to rebuild the calipers since the appearance was in very rough shape. I was super happy that I ended up rebuilding the brakes since there was a huge amount of crud built up on the front 4 pots from what I think to be caused by a bad seal. I ended up cleaning it all up with a wire wheel and some sand blasting which took forever but I want to have very solid brakes. A full rebuild kit for the brakes as well as wheel bearing/seals is waiting for me at home right now! I put some pictures of the rear calipers below. All paint for brakes has been VHT caliper paint and VHT epoxy paint for knuckles. I have also finalized the color for the car as well, I want to make it completely while all around with black accents (hence why I painted the calipers black). I'm really looking forward to finishing up this semester of school and getting back on it asap!


    IMG_2055_Moment.jpgIMG_2059_Moment.jpg

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    Buy a powder coating kit from Eastwood and a used oven on craigslist for 25 and put them to use on those components while you have them apart, you won't regret it.

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  44. #34
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    AJziride is correct! Powder coating is easy and makes for a great end result. I bought an oven on Craig's list, then built a larger cabinet to fit all the larger 818 parts, but the end product is totally worth it! Then I was donated a standard sized oven I use for smaller parts, so now I have a dual oven setup. Just saves electricity when I can use the smaller oven.


    IMG_2287.jpg

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    I would but I am already done painting them up with VHT! I also don't have room for an oven anywhere in the garage right now.

  47. #36
    Senior Member J R Jones's Avatar
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    kim3, The VHT paint is intended for brake calipers and I assume the operating temperature range. That is appropriate.
    The racing and track day cars I have run have burned Wilwood and Brembo caliper paint. That was obviously extreme.
    Hard braking especially with battery weight may develop brake temperatures that will melt powder coat paint. I recommend high temp paint.
    jim

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    Yeah exactly. That being said I don't think the brakes will be doing much as regen should take care of most of the braking 90% of the time. That's the main reason I went with VHT, it is rated for higher temps than a powered coat at the cost of a surface that isn't nearly as durable. If it starts to give me problems down the road I will fix them but for now, I will keep them as is.

  50. #38
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    I saw a youtube build on a Lotus that was converted with a Tesla powertrain and he rigged up the paddle shifter to be a regen brake controller, so that the harder he pulled the paddle the more regeneration braking was applied. I thought that was an awesome concept. Something worth looking into.

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  52. #39
    Senior Member J R Jones's Avatar
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    Kim3, I read about regen braking in terms of recovering energy but not pure brake performance, like distance to stop vs speed or G-force developed.
    In 2WD I speculate brake coordination with the non-driven axle is challenging. Even cumulative effect of regen + friction brakes would be a challenge. Worst case being a panic stop or downhill into turn 5 at Elkhart Lake at 150MPH. I read that F1 has done it but at what cost?
    Coordination with ABS?
    jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajzride View Post
    I saw a youtube build on a Lotus that was converted with a Tesla powertrain and he rigged up the paddle shifter to be a regen brake controller, so that the harder he pulled the paddle the more regeneration braking was applied. I thought that was an awesome concept. Something worth looking into.
    That’s awesome but I don’t feel comfortable enough but to design my own controller to modulate regen power over CAN. I know it’s fairly simple but since it’s safety critical I plan on trying to isolate the powertrain CAN to only a few devices. Down the road I would want to add this but I already have enough battles to fight as if now. Thanks for the tip!

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