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Thread: Body Alignment questions re front end

  1. #1
    Member olda4guy's Avatar
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    Body Alignment questions re front end

    Hi all,
    I've been following with interest the many discussions re correctly aligning the front end of the roadster body with the frame, especially the height over the 3/4 tubes, and left/right centering over the wheels. I just installed the body on my mark IV for the first time (using the coupling nuts in the rear and the new-design steel brackets in front that attach to the parking light holes and quick jack mounts), and have some questions re alignment.

    Some earlier threads on this task, especially from EdwardB, Jeff Kleiner and CraigS, mention a potential need to bend the DS front quick jack mount toward the PS to get the front body centered over the wheels. Is there ever a need to bend BOTH QJ mounts toward the PS? I have pix below (sorry, some might be sideways), but I've moved the body as far toward the PS as possible, given the new brackets and without doing any bending so far, and not only is it about 3/4" too far toward the DS, but the factory-drilled QJ holes are up against the QJ's on the PS, so bending the DS QJ mounts alone will not allow the body to go any farther toward the PS. At present, the PS front tire sticks out about 3/4" beyond the wheel well, while the DS tire is flush, and measuring from the wheel well edge to the shock tower on either side also shows the body about 3/4" over toward the DS.

    I'm tempted to leave things as is, as it doesn't look bad at all, and the only fixes I can see are to bend BOTH QJ mounts toward the PS about 3/4", and/or to enlarge the QJ holes to provide clearance. Any ideas or advice on what I should do here would be greatly appreciated. Oh, and as the pix show the factory exhaust cutouts appear to be too low and small, even though I've rotated the engine level in the mounts. Is it typical to have to enlarge these?

    Jim K - OldA4guy
    Great Falls, VA
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  2. #2
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    First, I've never said to center the body over the wheels. Always center it over the chassis. You don't mention what state your front end alignment is in, but that can make a huge difference in where the tires/wheels are in relation to the body. That's why you usually will be encouraged to use the chassis for reference. With it being 3/4 inch off when measured from the chassis, as you described, personally I would fix it. It just so happens that I've only experienced the DS front tubes being off. But they're not all the rigid, and when you start adjusting them you'll see how easily they can be re-positioned. So it's not necessarily a big surprise that both could be off. Like I said, I would fix it. And yes, it's completely normal that the body exhaust cutouts are undersized and need adjustment. Don't do anything until you have the body right where you want it and the front splash guards in place. Makes a difference. Adjust the opening a little at a time using the actual side pipe. You'll find the final opening is a bit lower and further back than you might think due the down angle and curve of the pipes where they exit the body.
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    Senior Member rmiller64's Avatar
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    Jim,

    As Edward said measure from fixed point on the frame on both sides to center body at wheel well lip. I had mine alignment professionally done in go cart stage before body was fitted for the first time. It can make a big difference especially forward and aft in the wheel opening as well as width. I only needed to move the DS QJ mounts 3/4" to the PS. It will bend easy with a 2x4 weaved between the QJ mount and the upper shock bracket. couple tugs and it was perfect. Some are not using the new brackets and have more experience than I but I liked them and will keep them with no rubber grommets in the front mount holes.

    Good luck with rest of the build
    Rick
    #8442 MK4 Complete kit, 331 Stroker, T5, 3.73 Posi 3-Link, 15", Goodyear Billboards
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    Member olda4guy's Avatar
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    Thanks to both of you for your quick response. Re the wheel alignment, I didn't have it done professionally, but did a rough caster/camber and toe-in alignment myself using tools and methods I've used successfully on many other cars over the years (chalk and string lines, levels, a large square, and a toe-in gage) and I think it's pretty close. In any case the wheels are centered in the wells from front to back, and the tires are equidistant from the same frame points on both sides.

    Based on your advice I think I'll try removing the body and "tweaking" both forward frame extensions/QJ mounts 3/4" toward the PS and see how that looks. The body fit from the firewall back appears to be right on the money as is.

    And while I'm at it, the manual has the rest of the body fitting starting with the hood and going aft from there, though some have said to start with the windshield. What do you think the order should be?

    Jim K

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    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Jim,
    Keep in mind that if the nose is 3/4" one direction you only need to move the frame extensions HALF (3/8") of that distance to bring it to center
    Quote Originally Posted by olda4guy View Post

    And while I'm at it, the manual has the rest of the body fitting starting with the hood and going aft from there, though some have said to start with the windshield. What do you think the order should be?

    Jim K
    Here's my order. Drop the body over the chassis and send it forward so that the body's door flange is just ahead of the chassis' striker tab as seen here:



    If you haven't yet trimmed back the underside return of the cowl roll you may find that it hits the dash and won't let you get that far forward so it's a good idea to do it beforehand. Once the body is draped on I run lengths of all thread through the body and into the couplers at the rear. These are not tightened yet; they are just holding the tail up. I then move on to the front to install the QJ bolts and spacers and button them down to locate the nose (makes no difference whether you're using the early split type or the full length tubes). Next is the windshield and front splash panels. Now comes the fun part...the doors. Notice that I have not mentioned anything about locking down the body on the underside along the rocker panels. This is where lots of give & take comes into play because you are trying to strike a balance at 4 different places; the upper front of the door where it meets the cowl, the upper rear where it meets the rear cockpit opening, plus the lower front and lower rear. To further complicate things we're dealing with both horizontal as well as vertical interfaces along the upper part of the doors. Adjusting for one invariably affects at least one other. And people wonder why body men drink I've had the best luck adjusting for the door tops first. While dealing with the top area of the doors do not completely ignore the lower door edge's intersection with the main body but keep in mind that the lower body can be moved in/out independently with little to no effect to the upper cockpit openings. On both Mk3s and Mk4s I've found that the passenger door has been easier than the driver's side; once the adjustments were made to get the tops in order it just took a bit of outward movement to the lower body to have it meet the bottom edge of the door. On the other hand with the drivers side once the tops were fitting the bodies had to go in at the lower front corner of the doors and move out a great deal at the rear. I've found that these cars and bodies are quite consistent and one of those constants is that you'll need to push the rocker panel in as far as possible in front of the driver's door and pull it out at the rear. I can assure you that you aren't going to get all 4 corners to meet perfectly but your goal is to get them as close as possible so that they operate without interference and to minimize the bodywork necessary to match contours between the main body and moveable panels. Once you've accomplished that you lock down the body along the rocker panels and move on to the hood and trunk lid. The Mk4 trunk hinges allow movement in all axis so it's pretty straightforward to get it adjusted on the top and by using the coupler method for the bumper/QJ attachments along with nuts rather than spacers on the backside of the body you can move the valance in or out as necessary to match the bottom edge of the lid by adjusting the nuts on the inside in conjunction with spacer tubes outside . For the hood I leave the hinges just loose enough to allow them to move somewhat freely then close and position it in the hole and get underneath and tighten the nuts.

    That's what works for me---your mileage may vary

    Jeff

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    Senior Member rich grsc's Avatar
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    If you move one mount, it only makes sense that you would have to move the other!

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    If your 3/4 off then only move both 3/8
    Mike

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    "If you haven't yet trimmed back the underside return of the cowl roll..."

    Jeff,

    I'm curious to hear whether you normally trim the cowl roll a set amount (how much?) before fitting the body, or if you fit the body first then determine the amount to trim. Noting you mentioned that you find the bodies consistent.

    Thanks

  10. #9
    Member olda4guy's Avatar
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    Thanks for that detailed answer Jeff. I "tweaked" the front body mounts toward the PS with a mallet and wood block, and then it was pretty easy to get the body centered on the frame and wheels using the new-style front mounts and one-piece QJ spacers. So now that I'm ready to begin the fitting process you describe, I have the same question as Popeye above - how much do you normally trim back the cowl roll, and does it need to be trimmed at all? My body appears to be in about the same front/rear position as your photo relative to the door striker, but the cowl is very tight against the dash and will not allow any more forward travel of the body. That said, the fit at the rear of the trunk is good, and all wheels are centered in the wells.

    Jim

  11. #10
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    You will want to clean-up/trim the rear cockpit roll to clear the back wall and the carpet that will be applied in that area, if not already. For the instrument panel side, you will also want to clean-up/trim so that it easily clears the covered instrument panel. You don't want that edge dragging on the vinyl covering. A gap of 1/8 - 1/4 inch is not obvious or visible once the car is completed. I'm not sure anyone can give you the exact answer of how much to trim. It needs to fit your body and build. My first Mk4 required little/no trimming on the dash side, but some trimming on the rear wall, and it wasn't the same from PS to DS. My latest build is going to require some trimming on both the instrument panel and the rear wall. So I think there is some variation in these areas from body to body. At the very least, you want both rolls clean and straight, and almost for sure they weren't delivered that way. Paying attention to details like these makes the difference between an average build and a high quality build IMO.
    Last edited by edwardb; 09-02-2015 at 10:33 AM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
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  12. #11
    Member olda4guy's Avatar
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    Thanks EdwardB. After taking the body back off it looks like I'll be trimming both the rear and cowl rolls. Otherwise everything seems to fit well.

    Jim

  13. #12
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Late to this party but yes, approximately 1/4" is good. When you had the body on and pushed forward did you happen to notice if the rearmost lip of the trunk floor aluminum was in hard contact with the body below the trunk opening? I've been finding that a bit of trimming (1/4"-3/8") on that piece as well an the corresponding vertical edges of the trunk side panels is helpful with body positioning and lower valance panel adjustment.

    Jeff

  14. #13
    Member olda4guy's Avatar
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    Jeff, yes those panel edges in the rear were in "hard contact" with the body. In mounting the body over the chassis, the rear-most lower lip of the body was very tight in getting over those back curves of the trunk side panels, but once in position seemed to fit well. In reviewing this whole discussion, I think I'll grind back the edges of the cowl and rear cockpit curls, then cut back that rear lip a bit and see if that affords an easier on-off for the body and some freedom of movement fore and aft. I hadn't thought about trimming the aluminum trunk walls as you mention, but that will be next if relieving the fiberglass a bit doesn't do the trick.

    Jim

  15. #14
    Member olda4guy's Avatar
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    Jeff, yes those panel edges in the rear were in "hard contact" with the body. In mounting the body over the chassis, the rear-most lower lip of the body was very tight in getting over those back curves of the trunk side panels, but once in position seemed to fit well. In reviewing this whole discussion, I think I'll grind back the edges of the cowl and rear cockpit curls, then cut back that rear lip a bit and see if that affords an easier on-off for the body and some freedom of movement fore and aft. I hadn't thought about trimming the aluminum trunk walls as you mention, but that will be next if relieving the fiberglass a bit doesn't do the trick.

    Jim

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