Would you do it all over again?

[Mechie3]

CU9DZ:

1) I agree. My Fmod is like that. Metric motor and clutches, standard frame and everything else. At my work we just switched all of our new product designs over to metric only because globally our service people have a hard time obtaining standard tools and/or off the shelf hardware.

2) Sort of agree. I will agree that the kit was designed to fit exactly one thing without much wiggle room.

3) I had to trim a lot of edges too. This is what I meant about changing my expectations of it being a bolt together kit. I'd still do it, just with a different time line.

4) The coupe will fix some of this. It's certainly difficult to get it looking really nice without a lot of body work aloha818 style.

5) I'm guessing because the MR2 shifter cost more and isn't readily available. Quite a few of us have gone to an MR2 home brew setup.

6) Yep, ditched my pieces as the first FFR adapter isn't a bell mouth so no reason to even try to use it.

[redfogo]

As someone who is waiting on their pre-order this is a great yet scary thread to be reading. One thing I had no thought of was that this uses standard tools.... As Somone who only works and owns German and Japanese cars.... I think I better convert everything to all metric or organize my standard tools.... At the moment all my standard tools sit in a cardboard box under my tool box for those one off moments when I have to fix a friends American car....

[Bob_n_Cincy]

As someone who is waiting on their pre-order this is a great yet scary thread to be reading. One thing I had no thought of was that this uses standard tools.... As Somone who only works and owns German and Japanese cars.... I think I better convert everything to all metric or organize my standard tools.... At the moment all my standard tools sit in a cardboard box under my tool box for those one off moments when I have to fix a friends American car....

I to had planned on going all metric.
Turned out that a lot of the suspension parts supplied by FFR do not have equivalent metric parts readily available in the USA.
Standard bolts are 1/4 to 5/8 and metric are M5 to M14 so not many extra tools were required.
It was really no big deal in the end.
Bob

[STiPWRD]

+1^ I got by with mostly metric tools. I don't think I purchased a single tool (that I didn't already have) just because it needed to be standard. Yes, the 818 has some shortcomings but clearly these are not insurmountable, it depends on your level of patience I suppose. Just about every issue with the car can be customized or modified to taste.

[Junty]

100% yes I would complete this again. I agree with many previous posts - there have been a few difficulties (but we are building cars). I have never previously built any kits (other than LEGO) so I expect and anticipate it will never be easy. Furthermore - the base kit allows for many variations, add-ons and enhancements. If you are building an 818S like I did - Air to Air IC is sufficient for the street, and I believe that unless you are Autoxing AWIC offers little benefit to endurance racing as it is not easy to keep the water cool. My personal; opinion is that if you wanted perfection with limited variance from stock - pay the money and build a GTM. If you want an entry level with many options build an 818S or 818C - the coupe has certainly improved many of the frustrations associated with the 818S.

I sincerely thank the team at FFR for a wonderful kit. A pleasure to build - something I',m very proud to have completed and drive ;-)

[AZPete]

If you don't have an assortment of standard SAE tools now, then you haven't fixed your lawn mower, plumbing, door hardware or other common homeowner projects. Building a car may not be for you. I'm now completing my second FFR car and I'm glad each step requires thought, research, modification and/or upgrading because if it was easy everybody would be doing it and there would be no pride of accomplishment.

Also, remember that this is a public forum where a few guys like to post negatives. Perhaps they think putting Factory Five down makes them look smarter. Keep reading and you'll discover who is worth following and who is not. It's about attitude as much as experience . . . just like everywhere else.

[redfogo]

If you don't have an assortment of standard SAE tools now, then you haven't fixed your lawn mower, plumbing, door hardware or other common homeowner projects. Building a car may not be for you. I'm now completing my second FFR car and I'm glad each step requires thought, research, modification and/or upgrading because if it was easy everybody would be doing it and there would be no pride of accomplishment.

Also, remember that this is a public forum where a few guys like to post negatives. Perhaps they think putting Factory Five down makes them look smarter. Keep reading and you'll discover who is worth following and who is not. It's about attitude as much as experience . . . just like everywhere else.

I don't think any one said they didn't have standards tools above. Also I'm not sure what "fixed your lawn mower, plumbing, door hardware or other common homeowner projects" has anything to do with building a car??? Factory five isn't selling house starting kits they are selling car kits right? I think an experienced mechanic here might be more important. A person with little automotive experience and a lifetime knowledge of what you stated I think would have a hard time completing this project compared to a dedicated automotive enthusiast/mechanic.

I have talked with several people who built a FF kit. Some who expected the "LEGO" quality meaning everything fits 100% of the time and never any issue as long as you follow direction word for word. However most have stated that they knew it was a kit that does require some outside the box thinking to get it together. I'm not sure who is at fault for the disappointed, FF for maybe not being clear enough, or that people needed to do more research before buying.

[Mechie3]

I think AZPete was just saying if the issue is not having SAE tools then likely you haven't worked on many other projects originating in the US as most of them require SAE tools. If the issue is needing to take two sets of tools to the track, than that doesn't help.

[Evan78]

I'm only at the roller stage, but I don't think I've yet missed having SAE tools on the 818 build. I think I only have SAE 1/4" drive sockets. Aside from small stuff, I don't seem to have a problem using a metric tools on SAE hardware and I do plenty of handyman type stuff.

[Hindsight]

I use only metric tools and was able to make them work with the SAE fasteners. Would much prefer having all metric fasteners with the kit, but didn't care enough about it to source all the individual nuts and bolts myself for everything as some others have. I did save and re-use a lot of nuts and bolts from the donor (saved every nut and bolt) in place of some of the smaller 1/4" and 3/8" fasteners from the kit. And I did use all metric brake line hardware and ditched the FFR adapters.

[AZPete]

Craig has a good point that if racing then one set of tools would be good. I didn't thing of that because this thread is not in the racing section. Redfogo, I didn't mean you when I referred to guys that usually post negatives.

[Quiny]

I would do it again and probably will but with a Cobra next time. If I were to do an 818 again it would be an NA build. The fact of the matter is even if I never finish or drive the car, the time I have spent with my kids building it has been amazing. I couldn't have paid for better memories. As far as anyone being able to build one, I don't think so, these kits require some ability and talent. If your intention is to open some boxes, spin a few wrenches and have a car then this isn't for you.

[Mechie3]

I'd do it again if I had the money. It'd be fun to have an 818S and an 818R. Then again, I also want an F600, and to go road racing, and a big CNC, and...and...

[RM1SepEx]

I'm done.. too many other ongoing projects... and I need to focus on getting my second child out of college. Do I rebuild one or two of my antique Yamaha RD350's or my 1969 Saab Sonett next? The CBR needs some bodywork, heating the garage beyond propane and ceramic space heaters would be nice too. Do I go all electric and double my solar array ? https://monitoring.solaredge.com/sol...751#/dashboard

[Innkeepr]

I don't think so, these kits require some ability and talent. If your intention is to open some boxes, spin a few wrenches and have a car then this isn't for you.

SO in anyone's opinion, is this more complicated, or just time consuming compared to my FFR Cobra ?
I am waiting on the C model, and still sourcing parts. After reading the expressed views of some, I am second guessing.

[metalmaker12]

100% yes!!

I do think FFR should make a 818R or S, C ultra light with an all aluminum frame. NA 1,400 lbs 200whp

[Hindsight]

If your intention is to open some boxes, spin a few wrenches and have a car then this isn't for you.

The "Roadster" (Cobra) is a lot more like this. Of the kits, the 818 seems to be the least plug-and-play. Not surprising given that it is the newest and least refined. I like that though, a lot, but it does certainly have a budget impact and it isn't for everyone.

Dan, are you really throwing in the towel?

[AZPete]

Compared to the FFR roadster? I think about the same build time but part of that was consumed by learning about the boxer turbo so next time maybe less time. I've just built one roadster and one 818 so this question is better answered by guys who have built many more, like Mike Everson, Erik Treves, Wayne Presley and others.

[RM1SepEx]

The "Roadster" (Cobra) is a lot more like this. Of the kits, the 818 seems to be the least plug-and-play. Not surprising given that it is the newest and least refined. I like that though, a lot, but it does certainly have a budget impact and it isn't for everyone.

Dan, are you really throwing in the towel?

No towel to throw in, I enjoy continually doing something different, built my own super insulated solar house, did EVERYTHING except paid $5000 for framing. My wife and I did the design and build and moved in 13 months after our wedding. I design and fabricate "projects" from there. Kids and family have been a priority for over 30 years... with my disability I need to focus on balance in life. I just added PV panels and I need to prepare for my older years.


I went from build the kit and modify after some time to just make it my own now. We all have been through donor woes and mine have been pretty bad but not outside the realm of expectations building from an unknown donor. Thankfully the term budget hasn't been in my vocabulary for decades!

[longislandwrx]

I think I would do it again, but I wouldn't be an early adopter, i'd let other people figure out the problems. The time is the biggest thing, 200 hours is just not accurate for a first time builder, even with extensive automotive experience. Almost 2 years later I have a roller. It's been a blast though.

I still am dreading the body work.

[freds]

Yes I would..........However, if I had known how little I knew..and had to learn along the way, I may not have started the first time

To be clear and not discourage other "first timers", I would definitely do it again, even the first time. I really appreciate what an experience its been. (and I was an early adopter...#18). Have learned plenty!

Be prepared to put a lot of work into it.

fred

[Buzz Skyline]

I normally avoid being an early adopter of anything. To tell the truth, though, I really enjoyed tackling problems that no one had solved yet. It can be frustrating at times, but it makes the successes all the more sweeter. You don't often have the opportunity to pioneer something that way.

Would I build another 818? Nope, too many new (to me) things to do. If I could go back in time and make the call again, hell yes, I'd do it again.

[Harley818]

Absolutely would do it again...... I'm not finished yet, but I'm having the most fun in doing it.
A project for me usually comes in 3 stages, Planning, Building, Enjoying it.
With this project I did the original planning.... but with this forum, I'm constantly planning and reading about a better way..... so I re-plan.
Then with the Build, its actually happening at the same time as planning, so even more fun.
I'm not a Subie guy, and haven't been this into cars for the last 20 years, so its back to my youth.....and learning something new is always fun and a challenge.
Actually, I'm enjoying the planning and the build, where-as when I do other projects usually the enjoying comes mainly at the end when you are sitting on the deck with a beer.
So really, I'm getting all 3 phases at the same time......... although I can almost taste dipping my right foot into it and slamming it into 3rd at full boost.....while watching the speedo.....

Do it again? not even a question..... just maybe a little different next time.

[fact5racer]

No, not because of the FFR kit, but dealing with the Subaru crap. I'm starting to feel like it's payback for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Stick with ford and chevy builds.

[Buzz Skyline]

No, not because of the FFR kit, but dealing with the Subaru crap. I'm starting to feel like it's payback for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Stick with ford and chevy builds.

What is the crap you're dealing with? I've never worked on Chevy or Ford motors (although I hope to when I can build one of FFR's other cars), so I don't know how Subie's are different to deal with. Are domestic motors easier?

I left my motor stock, so that's actually been the least troublesome part of my build.

[07FIREBLADE]

He was having motor issues if I remember correctly. Ford and Chevy builds I understand maybe easier but that's just because of your background with them. The subie motor is a different beast with its own can of worms to deal with. They have all been well documented throughout the internet. If you build accordingly with these faults in mind then you should be golden.

[GUNS]

I'm still building mine and if nothing else it's been an awesome learning experience! Would I build an 818 again knowing what I know now, probably not. Like others have said, it has required a lot more time, effort, and money than what was expected. When I bought it I was under the impression that this would be the simplest kit car to build and all of the supplied parts would be high quality and fit correctly. The no paint aspect was a huge selling point as well. Obviously there are issues with all of the above.

With that being said, I'd entertain the idea of building another car some day. If I do, it has to satisfy the "easy to build" criteria which I just haven't found yet.

[Flamshackle]

No, not because of the FFR kit, but dealing with the Subaru crap. I'm starting to feel like it's payback for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Stick with ford and chevy builds.

Na, Subarus are a charm to work on if you are familiar with them.

[shinn497]

Man no love for the turbo. Should I still go EJ207?

Big question. I'm ok with some body work. Esp since I want to plastidip it. But, outside of the muffler, are there any types of additions to the frame that require modification/fabrication? I've always been under the impression this kit could be built with a couple of wrenches.

Do you guys see FFR addressing and fixing any of these issues anytime soon ?

[Buzz Skyline]

I didn't have to mod the frame at all. It was just wrenches, drills and other hand tools for me. I don't have a muffler, though, just the stock catalytic converter. It's loud, but I stay off the gas in neighborhoods and haven't gotten any complaints yet.

[svanlare]

To the frame I've done lots of drilling and inventing and attaching brackets here and there. The only welding I did to the frame was for the seats. That said, I'm not done yet so you never know...

The kit is definitely not "wrenches only" but it has been significantly smoother than I expected. Maybe I spent too much time thinking I would build a Locost 7 before I started this project and was biased by what those builds typically look like. In any case, I've been very satisfied with the project. At the start I underestimated the time and the money that I was going to spend. While I knew my way around a car, each subsystem has been a repeating process of research, design, and then build (and sometimes rebuild). The research and design time was where I really think I have added hours that I didn't expect. For example, I'm working on the fuel system right now. I'm reading about the Subaru EVAP system, what do I need, what do I want, what can I leave out, what have the cobra guys done, ... It will all be a lot of work to settle on which $50 charcoal canister to bolt to the frame, and which vacuum lines I need to keep. But it is all knowledge I didn't have a month ago and I'm happier for the process.

As for waiting on FFR, I think they have produced a great product and I have no regrets. I'm positive future versions of the 818 will go together easier (thanks to improvements by FFR), and the knowledge base of what works and doesn't is growing daily (thanks to the builders on the site). It will never be easy, but then I'm not sure I want it to be.

[Evan78]

For example, I'm working on the fuel system right now. I'm reading about the Subaru EVAP system, what do I need, what do I want, what can I leave out, what have the cobra guys done, ... It will all be a lot of work to settle on which $50 charcoal canister to bolt to the frame, and which vacuum lines I need to keep.

It would be great to see a write-up on whatever solution you arrive at.

[svanlare]

It would be great to see a write-up on whatever solution you arrive at.

Not done thinking, but here is where I am at the moment: Gas-Tank-Venting#post213315

[CU9DZ]

The donor car latches do not fit flat in the FFR door frame. The very back end of the frame has an L shaped piece with three holes for the latch. This latch should fit inside the L but because the holes are slightly too close to the inside of the L I now have to shave off some material from the donor latch. Tired of doing modifications because FFR didn't do their homework.
CU9DZ
Also if I didn't already mention it, the clutch and brake master cylinders are hidden under the windshield.

[CU9DZ]

The donor seats with FFR supplied brackets are extremely awkward to bolt directly to the square tube X that is there. Someone told me to use some 1/8 approx. sheet metal to bolt to the X frame then bolt the seat to sheet metal.
CU9DZ

[theburner9]

The donor car latches do not fit flat in the FFR door frame. The very back end of the frame has an L shaped piece with three holes for the latch. This latch should fit inside the L but because the holes are slightly too close to the inside of the L I now have to shave off some material from the donor latch. Tired of doing modifications because FFR didn't do their homework.

Did you use the right latch? You're supposed to use the latch from the rear door... Mine fit once I put the correct latch in

[CU9DZ]

Yes I was very careful when taking apart the donor. Labeled everything. Had to shave some material off the inside edge of the latch. Now it fits. Does anyone know if FFR is aware of this issue? Seems like they could just move the three holes 1/8 farther out and fix it.

[lance corsi]

Personally I wasn't expecting perfection but some of the problems encountered with this kit seem to stem back quite a ways. I wonder if all their kits are in need of so much modification. I didn't ask but it would have saved me time if I could have bought my frame just tacked together. It wouldn't have been nearly so labor intensive to change the things that needed changing. All that said, I still like the car, its design and best of all, it fits my budget. It can be anything I wish, so long as I have the money, time, and expertise to make it happen. I doubt I'd do another 818 tho since I'm making this one as badass as money and time will allow. I'm having fun!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Personally I wasn't expecting perfection but some of the problems encountered with this kit seem to stem back quite a ways. I wonder if all their kits are in need of so much modification.

Lance,
I have #22 done, #21 in process and #220 collecting dust. There are at least 6 noticeable frame changes between #22 and 220. Now that I know the work a rounds, my preference is to start with the one I know.
Unfortunately I didn't get the a later body that has better fit and finish.
Bob