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Thread: Double axle failure on the AEM 818R

  1. #1
    Senior Member SixStar's Avatar
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    Double axle failure on the AEM 818R

    Looks like we found another limit. At a local autocross Sunday we had not one but both axles completely fail. Good new is there were a lot of people there to help push.

    400wtq through a RA 5MT running a Modena TBD, running 285/30-18 R1S competition tires at 32psi. Car weighs ~2,190 or so with driver, 4k launch. This was the 9th time the car had been launched in it's life, 4th that day. No big event just lurched forward about an inch and stopped.

    Just wanted to share. Part of the excitement of building a race car from scratch is finding failure points, upgrade, replace, move forward!

    4TluG0L.jpg

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    Owner/builder - AEM Intakes 818R #85

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    Same thing has happened to at least two others here. If I recall correctly, the axle broke at the same place.

    I'd call The Driveshaft Shop and get some custom axles made from them. They handle 750WHP.

  3. #3
    Senior Member SixStar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    Same thing has happened to at least two others here. If I recall correctly, the axle broke at the same place.

    I'd call The Driveshaft Shop and get some custom axles made from them. They handle 750WHP.
    $500 per side is mighty steep IMO. We're going to go with a local Colorado company that's known for making some very strong bits.
    Owner/builder - AEM Intakes 818R #85

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    Let us know what your Colorado company comes up with and if you will start selling the fix?

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    Senior Member SixStar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taco20 View Post
    Let us know what your Colorado company comes up with and if you will start selling the fix?
    We've run into some serious issues building the four axles for kit 80 and 85, I'm not sure the labor involved would jive with a reasonable price. Not exaggerating we disassembled over 3 dozen OEM axles to get enough parts to make 4. I know another local builder ran into similar issues with his axles.

    If we can find a way to build complete axles good to 500wtq for less than a G I'll pass that information on for sure.
    Owner/builder - AEM Intakes 818R #85

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    Check in with Mark Williams Engineering (Colorado Company) They specialize in driveline parts for Drag and road race cars.

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    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixStar View Post
    We've run into some serious issues building the four axles for kit 80 and 85, I'm not sure the labor involved would jive with a reasonable price. Not exaggerating we disassembled over 3 dozen OEM axles to get enough parts to make 4. I know another local builder ran into similar issues with his axles.

    If we can find a way to build complete axles good to 500wtq for less than a G I'll pass that information on for sure.
    Could your shop remake the FFR axles out of a stronger material? The subaru CV joints seemed ok, although I can't recall if someone else broke those as well.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixStar View Post
    Not exaggerating we disassembled over 3 dozen OEM axles to get enough parts to make 4.
    Why? So far the only other person I'm aware of who had that problem was someone who built with an STI donor. If the front inner and rear outer CVs don't fit on the driveshaft FFR sent you, then you just need to call FFR and they will send you a new one with the correct spline counts. The axles I received in my kit for a 2007 donor worked fine with my 2007 donor CVs. Or am I misunderstanding the reason you went through so many OEM axles?

    If someone in Colorado can make 500 WHP capable axles for less than $500 per side, and you aren't going to offer them, I'm sure a number of folks here (myself included) would love to hear who the company is and how much they are asking.

  9. #9
    Senior Member SixStar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    Why? So far the only other person I'm aware of who had that problem was someone who built with an STI donor. If the front inner and rear outer CVs don't fit on the driveshaft FFR sent you, then you just need to call FFR and they will send you a new one with the correct spline counts. The axles I received in my kit for a 2007 donor worked fine with my 2007 donor CVs. Or am I misunderstanding the reason you went through so many OEM axles?

    If someone in Colorado can make 500 WHP capable axles for less than $500 per side, and you aren't going to offer them, I'm sure a number of folks here (myself included) would love to hear who the company is and how much they are asking.
    Nothing worked/fit, it took that many to find four inners and 4 outers that did work with the 80237 shafts. I'll be honest I didn't know that they even made a different version. I know we had trouble recently with another pair of axles for a customer that was a very similar situation, nothing seemed to work. I chalked it up to the aftermarket rebuilds he sent us. In the end he went with 100% new DSS axles.

    I'll for sure let the community know what we end up doing regardless.
    Owner/builder - AEM Intakes 818R #85

  10. #10
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    Broken axles is a problem in the Legacy Spec B drag race community. In regular Legacy GTs it's the R160 rear diff that gives out before the axles, but the Spc B uses the much stronger R180, so it's the axles that snap. They have developed a custom solution with a vendor because all Legacys use the 5 x 100 hub like a WRX.
    The Driveshaft shop has developed a kit for the conversion including new upgraded hubs. However it's $1800.http://www.driveshaftshop.com/import...5-axle-hub-kit I'm sure they could develop a kit for the 818.

    One other thought though....if you upgrade the axles the next thing to break will be inside the transmission. It's a LOT cheaper to replace axles than the tranny. I'm waiting to see how the Subaru tranny that was designed for handling at most 50% of the total all wheel HP/Torque (front wheel HP/Torque) will fair running 100% in a 818. With street tires it may never be a problem but sticky race tires + upgraded engine power may break both the 5 speed and 6 speed trannys.
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    A few folks have already trashed their 5-speeds (even the later "stronger" versions), so the verdict is already in on that. I think everyone who did trash them was running more than stock torque numbers though. No one has broken a 6-speed, that I have heard, and I doubt anyone will. PPG gears are always an (expensive) option for the 5 speed and I haven't heard of anyone breaking them.

    Back to the Driveshaft Shop.... I don't think you'd need the setup with the custom hubs. They charge like $750 for a set of front or rear WRX axles that will take 750hp. I don't think we can use these as-is because of the different inner vs outer CVs we are running and the different shaft length but I'm sure DSS could custom make something that uses the OE hubs to keep the costs down.... I should call and ask. This all assumes that the CVs they would want to use to support ~700hp would work with our hubs.

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    We've seen this before. Custom is the way to go if the car is going to be launched often.

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    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    A few folks have already trashed their 5-speeds (even the later "stronger" versions), so the verdict is already in on that. I think everyone who did trash them was running more than stock torque numbers though. No one has broken a 6-speed, that I have heard, and I doubt anyone will. PPG gears are always an (expensive) option for the 5 speed and I haven't heard of anyone breaking them.

    Back to the Driveshaft Shop.... I don't think you'd need the setup with the custom hubs. They charge like $750 for a set of front or rear WRX axles that will take 750hp. I don't think we can use these as-is because of the different inner vs outer CVs we are running and the different shaft length but I'm sure DSS could custom make something that uses the OE hubs to keep the costs down.... I should call and ask. This all assumes that the CVs they would want to use to support ~700hp would work with our hubs.
    I've heard about the 4 or 5 cases of snapped axles. I think I only remember 1 MT5 issue. Were there a lot more?

    Our 818 FXT engine with MT5 has been through a couple hundred hard autocross Launches. 10 to 15 feet of dual rubber each time.
    Rear tires were Federal 595s 205, Toyo R888s 225 or R888s 255 (current tires).

    Our clutch is a KSB04-HD-OFE rated at 350 ft lbs. I feel that by limiting the torque of the clutch you can protect the transmission and axles.

    Our clutch (350) times 13.5 give us about 4725 lbs of thrust. Over 2Gs.

    That's my plan, it's working so far, I will keep you informed.
    Bob
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    AeroSTI just broke his transmission a few days back. FFR broke theirs on one of their early 818s (they did a 6-speed install shortly after). I think Jerome broke his.... not gears but the R&P if memory serves me correctly. Might not have been Jerome but I remember seeing the pic of the mangled ring and pinion and I thought it was Jerome's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    AeroSTI just broke his transmission a few days back. FFR broke theirs on one of their early 818s (they did a 6-speed install shortly after). I think Jerome broke his.... not gears but the R&P if memory serves me correctly. Might not have been Jerome but I remember seeing the pic of the mangled ring and pinion and I thought it was Jerome's.
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    Senior Member C.Plavan's Avatar
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    I would rather break axles than a trans. Mine have been holding on fine since December 2015. I do not launch the car at all.
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    I talked with the Drive Shaft Shop.

    They will do custom axles with billet CVs and all for $1,000 a pair. That should be for a 750hp rating. Or, they will provide custom strengthened axle shafts for use with your existing CVs (much like FFR supplies, only stronger) for $500 a pair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    I talked with the Drive Shaft Shop.

    They will do custom axles with billet CVs and all for $1,000 a pair. That should be for a 750hp rating. Or, they will provide custom strengthened axle shafts for use with your existing CVs (much like FFR supplies, only stronger) for $500 a pair.
    That's great news and the prices aren't bad. I won't be surprised when my axles let loose after installing the 6 speed.

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    Can we maybe get a group buy going? I'd be interested in the full axles. Sixstar, was there any wheel hop or was it just the dynamic force of the launch that killed them?

    Speedy G

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    I could probably setup a group buy if there was enough interest. Probably need to get at least 10 people on it though.

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    Senior Member Mulry's Avatar
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    I'd be interested in a group buy on the $500 set.

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    Senior Member SixStar's Avatar
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    So far we have one quote of $500 just for new axle shafts using factory CVs.

    Our transmission is built and I have no worries it can handle the power, especially given that it's only doing half the work. IMO the weak point on any pure race car should be the tires.
    Owner/builder - AEM Intakes 818R #85

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    So we have at least 2 interested in a group buy?

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    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    I talked with the Drive Shaft Shop.

    They will do custom axles with billet CVs and all for $1,000 a pair. That should be for a 750hp rating. Or, they will provide custom strengthened axle shafts for use with your existing CVs (much like FFR supplies, only stronger) for $500 a pair.
    I interpreted this as $500 per pair of axle shafts for any one person, i.e. if we had a group buy, I'd hope the cost would go down. $500 is reasonable but just seeing if we could get a better deal through a group buy.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by STiPWRD View Post
    I interpreted this as $500 per pair of axle shafts for any one person, i.e. if we had a group buy, I'd hope the cost would go down. $500 is reasonable but just seeing if we could get a better deal through a group buy.
    That is correct. If a couple more people chime in with interest, I'll start a new thread dedicated to the group buy and if it gets to over 10, I'll get updated pricing.

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    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    That is correct. If a couple more people chime in with interest, I'll start a new thread dedicated to the group buy and if it gets to over 10, I'll get updated pricing.
    I'm interested but was also saving for the new front end so I don't have an urgent need for the axles. Could you ask them what the cost would be if we did find 10 or 15 people? The right deal might be worth it for me.

  27. #27
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    I checked back with them. We could get a group buy discount but it wouldn't be very big. This is because they have an existing dealer network (and all the pricing considerations that go along with that). Maybe ~$50 off the fully assembled axles and ~$25 off the bare axles.

    So a group buy probably wouldn't be much of a benefit here. I do think the prices are pretty good for what you are getting.

    By the way, I misquoted the HP rating above; It is 500HP, not 750, but that shouldn't be a problem for us.

  28. #28
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    I broke a cv, so we need stronger axles and cv's guys, driveshaft shop needs to make em for 818.Last time I checked with them 750-1k a set of 600 plus hp axles
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  29. #29
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    DSS can no problem make a kit for the 818, they are as we speak building mine for my Porsche trans with bored Subaru hubs (and that's more custom than stock 818). They have a limit on the power, as the axles' diameters are small cuz of Subaru's design, but they can build one no problem.
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    750hp was a great figure. I suspect 500 hp axles won't cut it for me.

  31. #31
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    This hard launch stuff with huge, sticky tires is crazy. I thought it was well-known that the five-speed Subies couldn't take it. You're using a lot more torque than half of what was used (per wheel) as a stock fendered AWD WRX.
    Perhaps not what everyone wants to do, but a lighter touch (until you're rolling) at the beginning of an auto-X run could make the difference. I see people use that approach all the time in various cars.
    I've got DSS custom axles made, but they're for a six-speed. The hard lesson may be that the five-speeds are just not suited for racing in our cars, regardless of the light weight. We all love big torque.

  32. #32
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    I'd really like to be able to run a 5 speed, and be able to run the car in HPDE track days as well as drag-race days. HPDE is more fun to me, but it seems all the car shows that include racing are limited to drag-racing only and I want to be able to participate in those. The 818 should be a decent drag racing car anyway, with the light weight and high HP number potential, but as you mentioned, some weak points. I think the 5-speeds will hold up fine to hard drag racing launches if you use PPG gears (which are very expensive) and DSS axles (which don't come cheap either). Six speeds are very sturdy and would be cheaper than a PPG 5-speed setup but personally I feel too many gears and too much shifting for a car as light as the 818 (and with a lot of power). At the end of the day it still comes down to the old saying, "Speed costs money; how fast do you want to go?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aero STI View Post
    750hp was a great figure. I suspect 500 hp axles won't cut it for me.
    I bet it would... There is no way you would shock load them with 750 hp. You probably wouldnt exert your max torque until you are already moving. There would be no tires you could fit on the 818 to do a launch and keep traction. Maybe if you glued your tires to the ground first, then tried launching.

  34. #34
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    I am in for stronger driveshafts. Wish FFR would sell them as an option.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbjones121 View Post
    I bet it would... There is no way you would shock load them with 750 hp. You probably wouldnt exert your max torque until you are already moving. There would be no tires you could fit on the 818 to do a launch and keep traction. Maybe if you glued your tires to the ground first, then tried launching.
    That's what I was thinking. Unless you are running wrinkle-wall drag slicks, I'd be surprised if any tires you could fit on the 818 would allow you to put more than 500HP to the pavement.

    DSS can probably make some custom axles over the 500hp rating. I didn't ask about that though because I think only one person here is crazy enough to exceed that

  36. #36
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    There are limitations on the torque the axles can handle, due to the fact the axles are small in diameter. They are not like VW or Porsche.
    I have asked for the maximum torque handling they can build. Once I get my shafts, I'll let you know, but DSS never precisely answered the question as to how much torque they can handle, they always stayed away from the answer. At least for me.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    There are limitations on the torque the axles can handle, due to the fact the axles are small in diameter. They are not like VW or Porsche.
    I have asked for the maximum torque handling they can build. Once I get my shafts, I'll let you know, but DSS never precisely answered the question as to how much torque they can handle, they always stayed away from the answer. At least for me.
    I don't blame them. Why accept responsibility for something that depends on so many factors out of their control.

  38. #38
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    Some guys might laugh at me for my next statement.

    The engine horsepower has very little do with breaking axle shafts.

    Let me explain this using my 818.
    My engine is max out 210hp and 230 ft-lbs of torque.

    Imagine this. Tires strapped down to the trailer very tightly. A super big clutch rated at 2000 ft-lbs. I rev the motor to 6000 rpm in first gear (13.5:1). I pop the clutch, the total torque to the axles would be 27,000 ft-lbs of torque. A bunch of things would break instantly.

    Fortunately my clutch is rated at 350 ft-lbs. In the same situation as above, 350 x 13.5 = 4725 ft-lbs total torque to the axles.
    If I was running a LSD each axle would have to withstand 4725 ft-lbs.
    With my open diff, the torque is equally split between my 2 half shafts. so each half shaft only has to handle 2362 ft/lbs.

    Your clutch rating is the biggest player in protecting your transmission and half shafts.

    In my opinion, DSS should put a torque rating on their half shafts. With a little math, we could see if they will break.

    Bob
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 10-08-2015 at 09:17 PM.
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  39. #39
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    I think they should test them compared to stock and say they are "x" amount stronger than stock. We know what stock does in real life.

  40. #40
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    They might not put a rating on it simply because shock loads are likely to break them and are in excess of sustained rated engine torque. Joe blow does a clutch dump, breaks an axle and complains because his car dyno'd at 400ft-lb but his 500ft-lb rated axles broke and now he wants his money back.
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