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Thread: New 818 Configurations Windtunnel Tested

  1. #1
    President, Factory Five Racing Dave Smith's Avatar
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    New 818 Configurations Windtunnel Tested

    We took the new 818 to A2 Windtunnel in Mooresville, NC to test the new nose configuration, nose insert design, and airflow/cooling variations of ducting.

    The 818 program enters a new stage with the release of the newest configuration, the 818 Coupe. We’ve changed all the 818 models over to the new nose standard. All 818 models in production now and forward have this new nose design. The previous revision nose and headlight designs are still available for replacement parts or custom orders.



    Check out the wind tunnel work we’ve recently completed with the new design. The team is proud of the continuing evolution of the newest Factory Five. The 818C gives builders another way to make their 818 meet multiple needs. The car looks more aggressive, and is more aerodynamic than before.

    We’ll have a new 818C and 818R at the 2015 SEMA Show next month in Las Vegas.


    We tested a tremendous number of variables over the day and a half of windtunnel testing.


    We tested the latest configuration of the nose insert for downforce, drag, and airflow/cooling.


    Every run generated a full set of data points.


    We removed the hard top and tested the 818 in S-trim (roadster).




    We also tested the 818R with the new nose and the latest configuration nose insert with canards, front splitter, and aperture variations.

    Dave Smith, FFR 001
    President
    Factory Five Racing

  2. #2
    President, Factory Five Racing Dave Smith's Avatar
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    The outside of the windtunnel is almost as cool as the inside.


    818 designer Jim Schenck supervised all windtunnel testing.
    Dave Smith, FFR 001
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    Administrator 65 Cobra Dude's Avatar
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    Very cool Dave,

    Henry

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    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Looks great Dave! Will you be releasing the COD and downforce numbers?


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  5. #5
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    Thanks for the update. It appears the front grill has been updated vs what was shown at the open house. I really like the new grill and think it would look really good painted to match the body (sans the openings of course).

  6. #6
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    Also, do I spy a Spearco front mount air to air intercooler?!

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    Wow. Never, and I mean never, does FFR cease to amaze me. The 818 is getting more and more functional and attractive as the days go by! Great work!

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    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Hodgkins View Post
    Looks great Dave! Will you be releasing the COD and downforce numbers?
    Great job FFR.
    I also would like to see the COD and down force numbers on the 3 configurations.
    Most important to me is the numbers on the 818s original nose.
    Thanks
    Bob
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 10-06-2015 at 10:31 PM.
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    Senior Member C.Plavan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    Also, do I spy a Spearco front mount air to air intercooler?!
    Looks A2W to me. But we will see.
    https://gspec.com/p-3971-intercooler...quid-assy.aspx


    BTW- I WISH I sat that low in my R.
    Thanks- Chad
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    A front mount intercooler would lag a lot so I have my doubts. I love the new grill, it looks so much better with it!

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    Senior Member Flamshackle's Avatar
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    stoked to see this Dave,

    well done again FFR cant wait to hear about the data.
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    Senior Member shinn497's Avatar
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    I swear the new nose is looking closer to Olmos's redesigns more and more. Which is interesting since I know him and FFR were in contact at one point.

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    Air Speed In The Tunnel

    What air speed, or range of air speeds was/were used during the tests?

  14. #14
    Director of R&D, FFR Jim Schenck's Avatar
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    That front intercooler on the R is air to air. We used most of the summer testing different intercooler configurations in this car, two different air to water and 3 different air to air, and this is the latest from our test at Palmer a few weeks ago. That test was interrupted by an engine management issue so we are leaving the car this way for the next test as well. We did mostly aero testing on track at NHMS last month which also helped set us up for what we wanted to try in the tunnel as it gave us a chance to come back and build some new scoops and ducting to take with us.

    The air speed during the smoke wand runs is around 45mph, no data is collected during those sessions they are just visual. The data logging runs are done with 85mph wind speed and then the software at the tunnel extrapolates to any speed you want from there.
    Jim Schenck
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    Great to hear about the testing during the summer of the intercoolers!
    The big question is what are the results?
    I am particularly interested in the side vents in the rear, how did the tunnel testing prove their efficiency?

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    Thanks for the additional info Jim.

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    Senior Member Pearldrummer7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Schenck View Post
    That front intercooler on the R is air to air. We used most of the summer testing different intercooler configurations in this car, two different air to water and 3 different air to air, and this is the latest from our test at Palmer a few weeks ago. That test was interrupted by an engine management issue so we are leaving the car this way for the next test as well. We did mostly aero testing on track at NHMS last month which also helped set us up for what we wanted to try in the tunnel as it gave us a chance to come back and build some new scoops and ducting to take with us.

    The air speed during the smoke wand runs is around 45mph, no data is collected during those sessions they are just visual. The data logging runs are done with 85mph wind speed and then the software at the tunnel extrapolates to any speed you want from there.
    Definitely curious on your results with the different intercoolers, Jim!

  18. #18
    Senior Member C.Plavan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Schenck View Post
    That front intercooler on the R is air to air. We used most of the summer testing different intercooler configurations in this car, two different air to water and 3 different air to air, and this is the latest from our test at Palmer a few weeks ago. That test was interrupted by an engine management issue so we are leaving the car this way for the next test as well. We did mostly aero testing on track at NHMS last month which also helped set us up for what we wanted to try in the tunnel as it gave us a chance to come back and build some new scoops and ducting to take with us.

    The air speed during the smoke wand runs is around 45mph, no data is collected during those sessions they are just visual. The data logging runs are done with 85mph wind speed and then the software at the tunnel extrapolates to any speed you want from there.
    I'm SOOOOOOOO happy you guys are actually testing things. We would love info on what you found out with the intercoolers.

    PS can you throw a new front end on the truck to SEMA that I can pick up? I'll be there this year. Will the old canards work, or are there totally new ones for the new fenders?
    Last edited by C.Plavan; 10-07-2015 at 09:03 AM.
    Thanks- Chad
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  19. #19
    Director of R&D, FFR Jim Schenck's Avatar
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    My current thinking based on what we have seen testing intercoolers seems to be pointing to different solutions based on the intended use of the car. Testing the air to water systems on the track has shown that with no recovery time they tend to gradually increase in temps over the course of the longer runs, whereas on the street the recovery time at either cruising speeds or idle allows them to stay cooler than either the top mounts or relocated air-to air units still in the engine bay. The two W2W systems we tried were different in that one used a large reservoir and a medium sized cooler and exchanger and the later system used a bigger cooler and a full sized radiator as the heat exchanger with no reservoir. The second system worked better and was overall lighter than the one using the extra tank.

    For air to air I still think the top mount is viable for stock and mild builds, on both street and race cars, and that is where we concentrated our street car efforts in the tunnel trying to find the best spots to pull and from and exit air to. The plan going forward for ducting to the top mounts is to use four inlets to feed the intercooler. The two side inlets are effective if they are cut out correctly (the cutout shape made a HUGE difference which was something we missed in our first trip to the tunnel) and either the decklid vents or the roof scoop ducts for the other two depending on which model it is.

    During our track testing we also tried several different very large scoops feeding the intercooler from in between the humps and this was not as successful. Even with a large top mount (Turbo XS) the temps were not as low as we would like them to be and the drag/reduced downforce was not good at all. Airflow in that area is just very turbulent and the cockpit itself is a low pressure so air will actually flow backwards into it.

    As far as air exit goes the best place is the lower section of the car, the upper vents still allow air to exit but the flow is much slower and more chaotic. The rear trunklid vent is somewhat variable, with the spoiler in place you get air flowing in, but with the wing in place there is not much flow through that vent at all. I still think the vent is useful, particularly for escaping heat when the car is sitting still, but it isn't a good place to get reliable air entry or exit from. Cutting additional vents on either side of the low vent seems to make the most sense for someone needing to get additional air out of the engine bay.

    The front mount in the race car is really just going to come down to testing turbo lag. This setup will only be a real possibility for R models as the tubes run through the top of the doors, but the plumbing was actually pretty straightforward and the amount of tube relative to a WRX with a front mount is not that different (maybe 50% more but not 2 or 3 times as much). We stayed with a fairly small inlet tube to try and keep the overall volume down but we still have testing to do to see if this really is the best solution for big power track only cars.

    Also on the R, the windscreen makes a big difference, improves drag, downforce, and cooling and running without it does not improve flow into the rear decklid area.
    Jim Schenck
    Factory Five Racing

  20. #20
    Director of R&D, FFR Jim Schenck's Avatar
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    Chad,

    Canards are different, the nose is pretty different in that area so we couldn't make the old ones fit. I might be able to fit some parts on the truck though, shoot me an email.
    Jim Schenck
    Factory Five Racing

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    Great info Jim, very happy to see the testing continue and that you are sharing the info here.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Thanks Jim,
    Your comments were great at clearing up some of unknowns about airflow. I personally will reread your comments many times. Anything you can think to add later would be great.

    Can you send out something to show us how to cut out the side intake ducts to get more cool air into the engine compartment?
    Thanks Again
    Bob
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  23. #23
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    I'm guessing it's to ensure there is no lip on the inside edge of the scoop.....

  24. #24
    Director of R&D, FFR Jim Schenck's Avatar
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    The outer edge being a knife edge and the entire duct cut out so the air can't flow down to the bottom and out, the best thing we tested looked like this:

    sidevent.jpg
    Jim Schenck
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  25. #25
    Director of R&D, FFR Jim Schenck's Avatar
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    Two other things we tried here were using a deeper duct and adding a lip to the outside edge of the duct. The deeper duct didn't work when trimmed the old way but because we figured out the trim later we didn't get to test it fully open and knife edged like the stock duct. Without that the duct was less effective, both with and without the lip, and not what I would expect but the stock duct was worse with just the lip in place but the cutout the same. This pic shows both the deep duct and the lip. We used this same exact lip on the other side but I didn't get a picture of that.

    ventlip.jpg
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    Double KUDOS for stepping up and taking on the airflow issues!!!!

    I can't wait to see the aero drag / downforce numbers for the three versions of the car.

    On the FMIC, that was something I was going to try. I run a Perrin FMIC on my LGT and see virtually no turbo lag. But as you already pointed out it's a race car so the engine is almost always above 4500 rpm. And if you enable flat foot shifting in the Cobb AP that helps too. Please provide details on your FMIC testing for the R folks!.

    Thanks again, this is great stuff.
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    At 1:13 you can see the seam in the fender. Not sure about the center grill. It almost looks upside down compared to most implementations of that style of bumper.
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    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    A lot of cool stuff happened here! It's great news.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Schenck View Post
    The two side inlets are effective if they are cut out correctly (the cutout shape made a HUGE difference which was something we missed in our first trip to the tunnel).
    Can someone define "cut out correctly"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Schenck View Post
    The outer edge being a knife edge and the entire duct cut out so the air can't flow down to the bottom and out, the best thing we tested looked like this:

    sidevent.jpg
    What is different here? The black trim or the cut out angle at the bottom of the vent?
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    Director of R&D, FFR Jim Schenck's Avatar
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    The picture of the cutout on the driver's side of the car is what I am calling "correct" My comparison is to what we had for a cutout at the last tunnel test which is this:

    oldsidevent.jpg
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    Director of R&D, FFR Jim Schenck's Avatar
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    Also we tested I would call this style of trim incorrect (its a GTM but similiar shaped duct):

    IMG_0024-694x413.jpg
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    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    All great info! I'm glad I'm headed in the right direction. My side cutouts look just like yours! I'm hoping I can do AtA on mine with some fancy ducting.

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    Great information. This is the most transparent thread I've seen from FFR regarding the 818 since I joined the forum.

  33. #33
    Senior Member flynntuna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Schenck View Post
    The outer edge being a knife edge and the entire duct cut out so the air can't flow down to the bottom and out, the best thing we tested looked like this:

    sidevent.jpg
    Is that tape on the inside edge of the duct, and I'm assuming that is the inner fender I see looking in the duct?

  34. #34
    Senior Member shinn497's Avatar
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    Wow I would love to see a guideline for duct cutting. Or maybe like a template you can place over the body?

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    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shinn497 View Post
    Wow I would love to see a guideline for duct cutting. Or maybe like a template you can place over the body?
    Shinn
    I marked up my picture to make a similar cutout.
    Bob
    cutouts2.jpg
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  36. #36
    Senior Member Flamshackle's Avatar
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    wow great info thanks so much Jim.

    So helpful for those of us yet to build.
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    Senior Member ehansen007's Avatar
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    Great work guys. Can't wait to see it at SEMA!

  38. #38
    Director of R&D, FFR Jim Schenck's Avatar
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    That is tape inside the duct, leftover from our airflow sensor being mounted there. The black you see inside the duct is the inner wheel well, just with truck bed liner sprayed on top of the aluminum.
    Jim Schenck
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  39. #39
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Jim, I've opened up the side vent and used a more open hex screen, but would you suggest a baffle or duct inside to direct air up towards the intercooler?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZPete View Post
    Jim, I've opened up the side vent and used a more open hex screen, but would you suggest a baffle or duct inside to direct air up towards the intercooler?

    I have difficulty imagining how air is going to go up to the inlet side of the intercooler from these ducts.
    It seems that even if air does curl up towards the IC it will be heading for the downstream side of the IC.

    Providing a current of cool air clearing out hot air from the engine compartment (a good thing anyway) would seem to be what they do.

    Help me if I am not thinking straight.

    My stock intercooler is functioning very satisfactorily with my isolation of the feed side from the engine compartment...I had also opened up the two "wheel well" air feeds. Great to see the wind tunnel smoke flowing into them.

    See http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ighlight=freds


    fred
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by freds; 10-08-2015 at 03:46 PM.

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