Help! Our car is shrinking

[Tamra]

We are having some problems with our springs settling lower and lower. Despite starting at equal ride heights, after running a counter clockwise autocross course yesterday, the passenger front corner is now a full 1/4" lower than the driver front, creating some mild rub issues. Also, our total ride height shrunk nearly an additional 1/2" after racing this weekend (and this is after the car has had a few hours of street driving so the springs should have been settled already). Our car is shrinking!

Is anyone else having this problem? We are considering switching springs at all four corners and going with Hypercoils. If we had paid to have our car corner balanced, we would be out $500 due to the springs. This is getting frustrating! Plus, when we tried to raise the ride height this morning, we found the collars frozen again despite only having only the tiniest bit of pre-load. We'll have to put them in the vise again. Time to get new sleeves and try two collars rather than the set screw.

We have the red Konis and springs that come with the R package.

[frankeeski]

I can only reply with experience from other FFR models but it may carry over. The springs supplied with the coilovers are not of the highest quality. When tested we found a near 70 lbs. difference from two springs with a 350 lbs. rating. I replaced all of my springs with Eibachs and had no settling issues and the corner-weights were near spot on when set to the same collar position at installation.

Frank

[Canadian818]

Your newfound downforce could be to blame. Those springs are seeing more weight then before. However it does seem like a substantial drop.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Tamra,
We had the same shrinking.
We were not marking or tightening the collar set screws. So it was possible they were moving.
We are tightening the nylon tipped set screws now. MMC# http://www.mcmaster.com/#90291a535/=zc2qmd
Our ride height seems to be holding solid now. Not sure it that is why.
Bob

[Tamra]

I can only reply with experience from other FFR models but it may carry over. The springs supplied with the coilovers are not of the highest quality. When tested we found a near 70 lbs. difference from two springs with a 350 lbs. rating. I replaced all of my springs with Eibachs and had no settling issues and the corner-weights were near spot on when set to the same collar position at installation.

Frank

WOW. Okay we are ordering Hypercoils tonight. Eibachs are good too, but we already have Hypercoils in the garage to install on the rear, so we'll be getting them for the front too.

[Mitch Wright]

Have had the same experience with lesser quality springs, they do settle and spring rates were not as advertised. You won't go wrong with Hypercoils or Eibach.
All part of sorting a race car.

[Pearldrummer7]

I've been wondering why the left side of the nose of my car drags on my ramps since my first track day. This was one of my theories.

[PilotJO]

Please forgive my "noobyness" but how much tread have you worn off the tires with this use? 1/4" less tread depth WILL decrease measured ride height by 1/4".

[Tamra]

Our front tires (Hoosier A7's) only start with 4/32" tread (or, 1/8"), and they have most of it still (only 37 runs total at around 60 seconds each, and they *probably* won't cord until closer to 180 runs). Left and right are wearing relatively evenly, so our height change is definitely not due to the tires. We also checked ride height with the street tires back on, which are still basically brand new.

[D Clary]

My car has gone down at least that far just sitting in the shop. I would go hyper coil or afco

[Hindsight]

Anyone know what the size specs are on the coil springs?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Anyone know what the size specs are on the coil springs?

2.5" x 8" coil springs plus the lbs/inch spring rate.
Street springs from FFR were 350 front and 275 rear.
Bob

[Hindsight]

Thanks Bob.

[RM1SepEx]

Are we seriously looking at crap springs? I'm finding it hard to believe that FFR would cheap out on springs when they go Koni for shocks. Mine are cranked up so high on their spring perches to get to 4.5 inch ride height 8 inches appears a bit short.

[Tamra]

Are we seriously looking at crap springs? I'm finding it hard to believe that FFR would cheap out on springs when they go Koni for shocks. Mine are cranked up so high on their spring perches to get to 4.5 inch ride height 8 inches appears a bit short.

We thought they would be fine for the same reason, especially since we ordered the R shocks and springs... but it appears that's not the case.

We will report back this weekend after we test out the known good springs - Hypercoils.

[Jim Schenck]

The springs are made in the USA by an ISO 9001 company and are widely used in circle track racing, we have used them for 15+ years without issues both in racing and on the street. I swap between ours, afco, hypercoil, and eibach on my race car depending on what rate I need and have seen no differences between those manufacturers. Some settling will happen on any new spring but a half inch in a week sounds like it could be a different issue. Some other things it could be are collars turning from not being locked or taped, the springs not being seated in the perch fully when ride height is set, the upper control arms binding from being aligned with the clevis nuts tight or from the bushing bolts being too tight, or the car not being rolled and bounced to settle the tire scrub when initial ride height is measured. The spring collars are easy to check if you just record the measurement on the collar when ride height is set. The springs not setting in the perch and the tire scrub not accounted for would just require resetting the ride height and double checking those before recording it. The easiest way to check the suspension for bind is remove the coil over and run it up and down by hand, it should always fall back to the bottom when released or there is too much friction in the system somewhere. Also the lower arms having rubber bushings can affect the height depending on what position they are in when tightened, if they are tightened with the arm hanging down and the inner pivot sleeve slips under use that will lower the car as well, particularly on such a light one as an 818.

[Hindsight]

Good info thanks for chiming in Jim.

[Tamra]

Thanks for the tips, Jim. We'll report back once we check a few of the things you mentioned.

However, taking the measuring tape out of the picture, we autocrossed the car on Saturday. At the end of the day, we rolled the passenger tire up on a board, which allowed us to get the jack under the car. On Sunday, the car was autocrossed again. At the end of the day, same process, we rolled the passenger tire up on a board. However, this time, we could no longer get a jack under the car. Both times were on a flat surface. The car continued shrinking well beyond many hard stops and turns.

Our spring collars are marked with paint, they did not slip. In fact, they are so frozen that to adjust them we will have to put them in a vise.

Also, we torqued everything at ride height.

[tmoretta]

Anybody ever hear of Pro Shocks brand coil overs? Speedway has them on clearance (8" 500lb.) for $35. What are other sources for coil overs?

[RM1SepEx]

The 2.5 in springs are std for coil overs and a bunch of companies make them. I'm with Jim anyone that sells them currently has a process that should yield good, long life springs. Any settling shouldn't be due to spring sag. It should take years for springs to suffer any significant compression. Just take them apart and measure their free length.

[Tamra]

Tmoretta, I wouldn't go with an off brand because you possibly won't be any better off. Hypercoils are only $55/corner and are known top quality.

[Jim Schenck]

That's a good point Dan, the spring rate itself can't change so if the springs are sagging you would notice it in the free height. I took a few out of the bin and they all were within less than 1/16 of an inch off of 8.0 inches long exactly. For the car to sag 1/2 an inch the free height would need to be 7-3/4, give or take a sixteenth. Even if you are just swapping them out anyway I would be interested to know what they measure.

[PleiadsMan]

Where did you end up sourcing the hypercoils? can only find them for about $70

[Tamra]

I bought them on autoplicity.com. Pretty fast shipping too.

Well, we pulled the fronts off tonight. Nothing conclusive. The springs measure the same height - just barely under 8". We also checked that the suspension moves freely, and it did, with no noticeable difference from side to side. Unfortunately we do not have an answer for you, other than our experience over the weekend indicating uneven settling. I can only assume it may be something along the lines of what Frankeesi said, which is different spring rates left to right. Unfortunately we have no way to measure that. Jim, if FFR would like these springs back to analyze, we'd be happy to send them to you.

[Jim Schenck]

If the length is the same then I don't need to see them, that measurement is the only thing I would do to check for sag here as well. The manufacturer does test them all and guarantee they are within a 3% rate tolerance, but even if they were off rate wise that shouldn't alter the car once the ride height is set.

[RetroRacing]

We use these or Hypercoil. Both are lighter than Eibach and seem to test as accurate.
http://www.racingsprings.com/

[Quiny]

Are we seriously looking at crap springs? I'm finding it hard to believe that FFR would cheap out on springs when they go Koni for shocks. Mine are cranked up so high on their spring perches to get to 4.5 inch ride height 8 inches appears a bit short.

I had the same problem, I ordered 9" 350lb springs, they were only $30 each so I figured I would try that in the rear, fronts seemed ok. Being a fat man I felt that 275 just wasn't enough.

[apexanimal]

anyone used and like swift springs?

[tmoretta]

Was the change from 275 to 350 enough of a change? I know that Wayne suggests 500 lb. for the rear, but, my 818S rides pretty rough as is. Would it become unbearable with almost doubling the rear spring rate? I just want to avoid the bottoming that others have experienced at the track. Could I go with 400-450 lb? How about a rear sway bar? Has anyone come up with a plan/design for that?

[tmoretta]

Quiny, Have you tried the car with the 350 lb. rear springs? Stiff enough to avoid bottoming in hard turns?

[C.Plavan]

I had this problem early on. The set screws were not tight I was thinking. Once I switched to Eibach springs, I made sure to tighten the set screws (not too much or they will strip). I have not had the problem since.

If you are having trouble adjusting the coilovers on the car- Here is what you need. Use these strap wrenches with the a coil over wrench for great leverage.



http://www.amazon.com/Alltrade-07000...s=strap+wrench

[Tamra]

I had this problem early on. The set screws were not tight I was thinking. Once I switched to Eibach springs, I made sure to tighten the set screws (not too much or they will strip). I have not had the problem since.

If you are having trouble adjusting the coilovers on the car- Here is what you need. Use these strap wrenches with the a coil over wrench for great leverage.



http://www.amazon.com/Alltrade-07000...s=strap+wrench

The set screws were tight and actually damaged the threads, which is what prevented us from spinning them. We had to remove the shocks from the car, put them in a vise to keep the sleeves from spinning, and use a strap wrench and the coilover wrench with a pipe on it for more leverage to get them free. We then spent awhile filing the threads smooth again. The collars definitely didn't slip, because we had them paint marked. We bought some nylon tipped set screws like Bobncincy used now. We also went with Hypercoils on all 4 corners. I'm surprised Koni designed the set screws like that.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I'm surprised Koni designed the set screws like that.

Tamra.
My original set screws had nylon tips.
Bob

[Tamra]

Tamra.
My original set screws had nylon tips.
Bob

Interesting! Do you have the red or yellow shocks? We have the red ones, and the set screws were bare metal tips - no nylon.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

All mine are yellow

[Jim Schenck]

The collars are all the same for any of the steel bodied Koni's, all the set screws should have a small white nylon tip on them. The end of the set screw is drilled for the stem of that nylon tip to press in to, so if they are missing or came out somehow there should be a hole left in the end of the set screw.

[xxguitarist]

The collars are all the same for any of the steel bodied Koni's, all the set screws should have a small white nylon tip on them. The end of the set screw is drilled for the stem of that nylon tip to press in to, so if they are missing or came out somehow there should be a hole left in the end of the set screw.

We didn't specifically keep track of the setscrews after removal, but I think I know where two are, and can snap a pic. Certainly none had tips on them.
I believe they were all the typical inverted dome shape on the end.

[Tamra]

This is what they all looked like to my knowledge: