Reliable street engine...

[aarvig]

I have been on this site for awhile now. Getting closer to pulling the trigger on a Cobra project. I need to unload a Vans Aircraft RV9A project first. (If there is any interest let me know). Getting close to getting it sold so I am thinking more seriously about the Cobra project and what I want. With that in mind...engines are on my mind.
What is a good reliable street performance engine for this car? I used to think I would go 347 stroker but I am not so sure I want to mess around with a carb. On these new carb setups are they fairly reliable? Consistent? Or should I just bite the bullet and go modern and let a PCM do all the work...such as with a Coyote engine?

[Aceflo]

You can always go with an old block with a modern fuel injection setup ...like a F.A.S.T. system.

[Jeff Kleiner]

OEM=reliable, therefore an EEC-IV based Windsor, 2 or 4 cam 4.6 or Coyote.

Jeff

[edwardb]

I have been on this site for awhile now. Getting closer to pulling the trigger on a Cobra project. I need to unload a Vans Aircraft RV9A project first. (If there is any interest let me know). Getting close to getting it sold so I am thinking more seriously about the Cobra project and what I want. With that in mind...engines are on my mind.
What is a good reliable street performance engine for this car? I used to think I would go 347 stroker but I am not so sure I want to mess around with a carb. On these new carb setups are they fairly reliable? Consistent? Or should I just bite the bullet and go modern and let a PCM do all the work...such as with a Coyote engine?

Kind of two different questions. A well built 347 should be just as reliable for street cruising as most any other choice. Will it go 100K+ miles with no maintenance like a modern DD engine? No, not likely. But almost none of us drive these cars that way. Several thousand miles per season is probably at the high end for most, and at that rate we're not likely to wear out a decent engine as long as we own the car. In the end it becomes more about budget, availability, etc. Again I'm talking about street driving, since that's what you asked about. Starting tracking or racing and the story changes of course.

As far as carb vs. EFI, this is discussed a lot. I've finished two carb SBF builds, and both run great and are extremely reliable. I don't accept the notion that carbs can't be reliable or require constant tinkering. But I will qualify that statement to say it needs to a high quality carb, the right carb for the engine and setup, and it has to be tuned. I've read multiple threads where guys took carbs out of the box, bolted them on, and then were disappointed with how they run. Rarely will that work. Do it right and a carb'd setup can be completely acceptable. I've had great luck with Quick Fuel carbs, and so have others.

EFI in its various forms is no doubt an improved setup. But it's more expensive and can have its share of tinkering too before it's right. I'm diving into the deep end of the pool here and installing a Coyote in my current build. It's a great value proposition when you look at what you get for the money, the warranty, long term reliability, etc. But it's not inexpensive.

Bottom line, there's no absolutes on any of this. Most everyone (myself included) will cite their experience and say it's a good choice. You have to decide what works best for you, your build goals, budget, etc.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Pricy but IMHO the best street/track day/drag strip engine. Ford racing Coyote 435BHP. No must no fuss in 99.9% of the Cobras just put it in & turn it on. A basic performance tune will just WHP over 400. Fully streatable with no bad habits & designed for use in a car over 1000lbs heavier.

What would Dave Smith drive? Opps he actually does.

https://youtu.be/V96-AQ1FghI

[R. Button]

A well built 347 should be just as reliable for street cruising as most any other choice. Will it go 100K+ miles with no maintenance like a modern DD engine? No, not likely. But almost none of us drive these cars that way. Several thousand miles per season is probably at the high end for most, and at that rate we're not likely to wear out a decent engine as long as we own the car. In the end it becomes more about budget, availability, etc. Again I'm talking about street driving, since that's what you asked about. Starting tracking or racing and the story changes of course

I beg to differ With 3.27 rear end gears and a 670 Holley carb she steps out quite lively on both the interstate and around town. I did put a aluminum 3 core radiator and even in the well over 100+ heat of the southwest no over heating issues. I have had no issues with the engine both on track as well as just general driving.

Oh and as of today the engine has but a bit over 100,000 miles on it.

[edwardb]

I beg to differ With 3.27 rear end gears and a 670 Holley carb she steps out quite lively on both the interstate and around town. I did put a aluminum 3 core radiator and even in the well over 100+ heat of the southwest no over heating issues. I have had no issues with the engine both on track as well as just general driving.

Oh and as of today the engine has but a bit over 100,000 miles on it.

Well, first (and I think it's the coolest!) you are the exception to the mileage thing. And nothing I said was related to performance. But I think you're missing my point. Guys talk about reliability like they're going to put 12-15-20K (or more) a year on their cars like we do our DD's. The fact is most of us don't. Usually a fraction of that. A well maintained decent engine is going to give years of service. Racing or tracking the car occasionally is no big deal, but if you're building a racer, expect to be breaking things. That's the nature of it.

[KDubU]

Kind of two different questions. A well built 347 should be just as reliable for street cruising as most any other choice. Will it go 100K+ miles with no maintenance like a modern DD engine? No, not likely. But almost none of us drive these cars that way. Several thousand miles per season is probably at the high end for most, and at that rate we're not likely to wear out a decent engine as long as we own the car. In the end it becomes more about budget, availability, etc. Again I'm talking about street driving, since that's what you asked about. Starting tracking or racing and the story changes of course.

As far as carb vs. EFI, this is discussed a lot. I've finished two carb SBF builds, and both run great and are extremely reliable. I don't accept the notion that carbs can't be reliable or require constant tinkering. But I will qualify that statement to say it needs to a high quality carb, the right carb for the engine and setup, and it has to be tuned. I've read multiple threads where guys took carbs out of the box, bolted them on, and then were disappointed with how they run. Rarely will that work. Do it right and a carb'd setup can be completely acceptable. I've had great luck with Quick Fuel carbs, and so have others.

EFI in its various forms is no doubt an improved setup. But it's more expensive and can have its share of tinkering too before it's right. I'm diving into the deep end of the pool here and installing a Coyote in my current build. It's a great value proposition when you look at what you get for the money, the warranty, long term reliability, etc. But it's not inexpensive.

Bottom line, there's no absolutes on any of this. Most everyone (myself included) will cite their experience and say it's a good choice. You have to decide what works best for you, your build goals, budget, etc.

I agree with everything above. You need to look at what your requirements, find a good engine shop and make the decision. I've had carb engines in the past with no issues but I also did not tune them nor install them. The coyote a nice engine and needs a bit more work at the beginning but is a high-tech beast that will make you smile. Then there is the old school look and a well built well tuned one will also make you smile.

[Avalanche325]

Any of the engines will be reliable if they are kept reasonably mild. Crank the HP up and the risk goes up.

Don't think for one second that you don't have to "mess around" with EFI. That needs to be tuned as well as a carb does. The good thing is that either one doesn't really need to be messed with one you get it right. From my years on the forums, it seems that the top three things that send people home on a flat-bed are MSD boxes, aftermarket electric fuel pumps, and EFI issues (mostly aftermarket).

I think the type of engine totally determines the personality of the car. That is what I would give some serious thought to. Do you want it old school, rough and nasty? Or do you want it quieter and smoother?

[russelljones48]

I made my choice for the Coyote based on 2 factors. I wanted an "updated" car and look - so engine compartment aesthetics and (believe it or not) cost. I pretty carefully priced what I thought would be a nice SBF build (331 or 347) reconned block with an aluminum top end and EFI and discovered a couple of things. If I had to farm out machine work and buy the pieces separately I could buy the complete engine from a reputable builder for less money than I could build it myself. Then when I added up the all of the add ons and special brackets required the price was actually lower for the Coyote. The FR Coyote comes with everything but the alternator - it even comes with headers that you can't use but may be able to sell. You can also use the supplied flywheel with the right clutch. As pointed out above there are myriads of other aspects to consider and I will need to learn to work with the more complex Coyote engine control systems etc. but that's an area I need to add to my skill set anyway... BTW the next gen Coyote is apparently out - see Edwardb's build on the 20th anniversary kit. That means that there are some sales available on the older model or more HP and torque in the newer addition.

As a complete aside - I live adjacent to the Lake Norman Airpark (Mooresville NC) - if you wish me to pass around the details of your plane to the residents and contacts here PM me the details.

[gtaroger]

The carbed motors run and perform great when tuned for the car. The only con that I can think of is how you can smell the gas when the car is left closed up in the garage.My MKII is the first EFI car that I've built and once I had It tuned for the car its great. It gets over 20mpg on the freeway if I drive under 80mph. Roger

[aarvig]

I made my choice for the Coyote based on 2 factors. I wanted an "updated" car and look - so engine compartment aesthetics and (believe it or not) cost. I pretty carefully priced what I thought would be a nice SBF build (331 or 347) reconned block with an aluminum top end and EFI and discovered a couple of things. If I had to farm out machine work and buy the pieces separately I could buy the complete engine from a reputable builder for less money than I could build it myself. Then when I added up the all of the add ons and special brackets required the price was actually lower for the Coyote. The FR Coyote comes with everything but the alternator - it even comes with headers that you can't use but may be able to sell. You can also use the supplied flywheel with the right clutch. As pointed out above there are myriads of other aspects to consider and I will need to learn to work with the more complex Coyote engine control systems etc. but that's an area I need to add to my skill set anyway... BTW the next gen Coyote is apparently out - see Edwardb's build on the 20th anniversary kit. That means that there are some sales available on the older model or more HP and torque in the newer addition.

As a complete aside - I live adjacent to the Lake Norman Airpark (Mooresville NC) - if you wish me to pass around the details of your plane to the residents and contacts here PM me the details.

Thanks for the offer, I just sold the plane today!! Yeah! I am tied between a 347 and the coyote. Have some thinking to do.

[pcww]

My response is from a non mechanic-non engine guy. The last time I worked on cars was in high school in the 60's. So, when I planned my build I did a ton of investigation. By investigation, I mean trolling this forum and others. The first conclusion I came to was that Electronic Fuel Injection was for me. I knew even if I got a carb tuned that it may require adjustment at some point which I was incapable of doing. Secondly , even though I live at sea level my bucket list includes the great trip across the continental divide and I wanted something that adjusted itself to altitude. Lastly, I remember chokes and I know the current carbs have automatic chokes , I did not want to fool with those in any fashion. So EFI ( Electronic Fuel Injection ) was a must. A must in the end because of my lack of ability and knowledge on carbs.
Next, I wanted an engine with some type of real warranty. Over the years I have come to the understanding that it is always a good idea when purchasing an expensive item to try to get a vendor who really can stand behind the product if something goes wrong.Not just in my home town, but if I am a thousand miles away. This led me to Ford Crate engines. The next factor was I fell for the inevitable question dilemma, " Does it have a 427?". So I knew that I wanted some type of 427. The "real" ones were too expensive and somewhat larger to stuff in the engine bay. Then to the Ford 351 Windson/427. Next choice do I go all out and get the most powerful 427W Ford Crate engine the one with the Z heads. Because I had learned from this and the other forums that you are always better off , from a reliability position, to go with the detuned version I went with the X head version. Still puts out 465 HP at the flywheel which is probably 165 HP more than is needed.
Now I have the 427W with X heads Ford Crate engine with Holley Terminator EFI. The first time we cranked it up it started ( that is after I replaced a defective MSD coil, sorry Paul. ) I had help with the installation, but on starting my buddy, who knows nothing about the setup was at the controller. A few inputs and we were good to go. Go cart five minutes later. Since then it starts every time like my DD. I had one issue, every now and then it would stall on deceleration . An hour or so on the Holley Forums and ten minutes on the controller and the issue is gone.
Bottom line I could not be more satisfied that I got the right engine/EFI combo for my level of experience and use. The guiding factor for me was inexperience and not wanting any reliability issues. Just my two long winded cents. Henry

[cgundermann]

I agree, you can get a Coyote more affordable than an outfitted stroker or Ford Racing 427. I went back and forth between all three and went with a Pro-M racing EFI managed 347. Getting close to firing it up, so no reviews yet. Next build will be a Coyote. Having had many Fox body Mustangs, I wanted to build my ultimate 5.0...more $ than Coyote with my dream list of components. I echo the experienced members' advice that a Ford Racing EFI motor is the most reliable once you have truly defined your car's intended uses.

[Todd Buttrick]

I'll always be the old school, keep-it-simple position on this subject. I want to able to fix something when it breaks and I haven't invested in learning building anything more than the SBF. That being said, if you decide to go with a traditional SBF, this is a good read.

[Todd Buttrick]

I agree, you can get a Coyote more affordable than an outfitted stroker or Ford Racing 427. I went back and forth between all three and went with a Pro-M racing EFI managed 347. Getting close to firing it up, so no reviews yet. Next build will be a Coyote. Having had many Fox body Mustangs, I wanted to build my ultimate 5.0...more $ than Coyote with my dream list of components. I echo the experienced members' advice that a Ford Racing EFI motor is the most reliable once you have truly defined your car's intended uses.

It looks like same price on the Ford Racing site. Wouldn't the Coyote be much more if you add in the fuel management system needed? Doesn't sound right to me.

[edwardb]

It looks like same price on the Ford Racing site. Wouldn't the Coyote be much more if you add in the fuel management system needed? Doesn't sound right to me.

My current build was initially planned with the Ford Racing Boss 351 based 427 crate motor. Had a detailed parts lists with throttle body EFI. Then reconsidered the Coyote, and went that way. The Coyote was roughly $4K cheaper. Combine that with the Coyote's DD quality starting, driveability, reliability, efficiency, etc. it's hard to not give it serious consideration. The value proposition is there. For the X-head version, the HP ratings are similar although the torque value is higher. But I'm not worried about the Coyote having enough HP or torque. Yes, there is a learning curve, and it's a tight fit. But I'm working through that. Really the only downside IMO is it's neither authentic or old school. But if we are honest with ourselves, there are many aspects of these builds that are neither authentic or old school.

BTW, comparing apples to apples, there's little/no difference it the fuel management system between an EFI equipped SBF and the Coyote. For the planning I did, it was a wash.

[cgundermann]

You need to add in the upper/lower intake and accessory drives. Could be close, but from my build - I went with my dream heads/intakes, March pulleys etc. it added up...

[Todd Buttrick]

My current build was initially planned with the Ford Racing Boss 351 based 427 crate motor. Had a detailed parts lists with throttle body EFI. Then reconsidered the Coyote, and went that way. The Coyote was roughly $4K cheaper. Combine that with the Coyote's DD quality starting, driveability, reliability, efficiency, etc. it's hard to not give it serious consideration. The value proposition is there. For the X-head version, the HP ratings are similar although the torque value is higher. But I'm not worried about the Coyote having enough HP or torque. Yes, there is a learning curve, and it's a tight fit. But I'm working through that. Really the only downside IMO is it's neither authentic or old school. But if we are honest with ourselves, there are many aspects of these builds that are neither authentic or old school.

BTW, comparing apples to apples, there's little/no difference it the fuel management system between an EFI equipped SBF and the Coyote. For the planning I did, it was a wash.

Agreed. In my mind I was comparing a Windsor with carb to Coyote with EFI.

[FFinisher]

It looks like same price on the Ford Racing site. Wouldn't the Coyote be much more if you add in the fuel management system needed? Doesn't sound right to me.

The fuel management system consists of a fuel pump, which is needed for any motor and a fuel pressue regulator which is done with a $35 fuel filter/regulator. You cannot put together a comparable HP/Torque motor new for what you can get from the coyote for under $8K including the control pack.

Coyote can't be simpler, plug together the control pack, 7 wires, fuel and fire it up....... then Drive the sh.......................... crap out of it.

[Todd Buttrick]

I was referring to the $1,899.00 "Control Pack" part# M-6017-A504V that is not included in the $8,995.00 MSRP.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Look to the forum vendors or Summit racing. My Coyote was in the 8K range turn key with controls & front end accessories, Starter, alternator etc in 2014. Complete package with TKO-600 was IIRC $11K. Can look up my account if you need exact numbers.

[edwardb]

I was referring to the $1,899.00 "Control Pack" part# M-6017-A504V that is not included in the $8,995.00 MSRP.

That's the list price. But they're available at discounted prices. As Kevin said, the entire package can be found in the $8K range. Includes the motor, controls pack, starter, alternator and covers. The 2015-2016 controls pack looks quite a bit different than the 2011-2014 one pictured, but it's the same price. Speaking of that, someone in our local club heard that Ford is raising crate motor prices after the first of the year. I haven't heard or seen anything myself, and I don't know how much. The message came from Superformance as I understand.

[Todd Buttrick]

That's the list price. But they're available at discounted prices. As Kevin said, the entire package can be found in the $8K range. Includes the motor, controls pack, starter, alternator and covers. The 2015-2016 controls pack looks quite a bit different than the 2011-2014 one pictured, but it's the same price. Speaking of that, someone in our local heard that Ford is raising crate motor prices after the first of the year. I haven't heard or seen anything myself, and I don't know how much. The message came from Superformance as I understand.

Got it. Probably not best to compare @ MSRP . I'm just not understanding the "you can't build a bigger, badder, more reliable, bla, bla, bla for the same money as a Coyote" statements. Levy Racing has a carb'd 540HP, 408W for $8,995 which seems to be a better dollar-per-horsepower deal. You'd have to spend many more dollars to get that HP from a Coyote. Am I missing something here? Not trying to start an argument but seriously looking at my next build as well as providing honest data here for future builders. I'm assuming you'd need all similarly priced hoses, belts, fuel pump, trans, etc for either engine which I'll call a wash?

[edwardb]

Got it. Probably not best to compare @ MSRP . I'm just not understanding the "you can't build a bigger, badder, more reliable, bla, bla, bla for the same money as a Coyote" statements. Levy Racing has a carb'd 540HP, 408W for $8,995 which seems to be a better dollar-per-horsepower deal. You'd have to spend many more dollars to get that HP from a Coyote. Am I missing something here? Not trying to start an argument but seriously looking at my next build as well as providing honest data here for future builders. I'm assuming you'd need all similarly priced hoses, belts, fuel pump, trans, etc for either engine which I'll call a wash?

No argument here either. This is just an interesting discussion because I went through the exact thought process planning my current build. And it will be a year (or more) before I drive the Coyote and can give a firsthand review of how it compares to my previous SBF carb'd builds. But based on everyone I've talked to, and seen in person, I think I made the right choice. With the revised cold air intake (required to fit into our builds), straight tube headers, and (maybe) a revised tune, the Coyote is going to make quite a bit more power than the stock numbers right from the start. Regardless, it's going to be way more power than I need for my usual street cruising. The $8K number really does include everything though, including free shipping which is normally available. Does the $8,995 number include starter, alternator, front dress, shipping, etc. Often it doesn't. I've had great luck with carb'd engines, so don't have a negative opinion about that. But having said that, not a fair comparison between the carb'd 408 and the EFI Coyote. Add $2-$3K to the 408 price for EFI, and then the difference I mentioned in my first post starts becoming obvious.

[Todd Buttrick]

OK but the OP question was..

I used to think I would go 347 stroker but I am not so sure I want to mess around with a carb. On these new carb setups are they fairly reliable? Consistent? Or should I just bite the bullet and go modern and let a PCM do all the work...such as with a Coyote engine?

And my answer would be;

1 "On these new carb setups are they fairly reliable?" Absolutely! Talk to any engine builder sourcing a Quickfuel carb.
2. "Consistent?" See above
3. "Or should I just bite the bullet and go modern and let a PCM do all the work" And I read "Bite the bullet" as more time and money investment.

I'm not one to be a stubborn old-timer with respect to technology and my livelihood depends on leading edge tech but still not even remotely convinced in the reliability department vs. dollars spent. Other than unit sales, service and repair is still the next highest revenue generator for any automotive maker.

[pcww]

Lets not lose sight of the original question. What is a reliable performance engine. I would agree from a pure reliability perspective the Coyote, if kept stock , is obviously going to be the most reliable. It is going to be the same engine used in a lot of daily drivers. It will be fuel injected and controlled by a computer. As more and more FFR clients install it will be easier to use in the cars. Anytime you can just drop in a stock engine , which is currently used in dds it will be the "most " reliable.

Almost all , if not all, of the other choices we make for engines are not stock and not new. They are almost all modified to some extent and not being used in DDs. So if reliability is the number one criteria go with the Coyote. As most have said it will produce more power than is needed for most purposes. If something a little more period correct or fun is called for I recommend the Ford Crate engines with EFI.

Price is a different ball game. I agree that the Coyote is probably the most cost efficient if it can be had with all of the goodies, EFI, front engine stuff in the nine grand range. Cannot be beat. So there. Case closed. Ha???????????

[Todd Buttrick]

So there. Case closed. Ha???????????

Well... then now I would HAVE to assume, that all opposing arguments would have been defeated.

[j.miller]

Reliability ? Nothing wrong with a carb......They have been around for just a bit. Grandma drove an A and a T, My mom drove 40's-70's cars with a carb....My sister (bless that idiot) drove 60's-70's....Even think I had a few cars with it.........State of the art EFI is awesome for instant gratification (turn the key and go) They don't fail often but when they do, you're stuck.....Carbs, screwdriver and a hammer and you are back in biz.....just depends on the look you want under the hood and how simple you want to keep it. You're going to tinker with both to get them to run optimal.

[pcww]

A question. Wouldn't EFI be easier to "keep going" once set up for an inexperienced owner than a carb? Does a carb require "adjustment"? Does an EFI , after set up, require adjustment? The answer to this may help a new owner to make the decision on which way to go when making decisions. I am not advocating one over the other but raising the issue for the future builders. And the OP.

[Todd Buttrick]

A question. Wouldn't EFI be easier to "keep going" once set up for an inexperienced owner than a carb? Does a carb require "adjustment"? Does an EFI , after set up, require adjustment? The answer to this may help a new owner to make the decision on which way to go when making decisions. I am not advocating one over the other but raising the issue for the future builders. And the OP.

See post #29. Both need initial setup and both will run forever. The narrative that you can't compare the price of Coyote w/EFI to a carb'd small block is simply a silly argument.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Apples to Apples

Coyote $8,823.13

INCLUDES:

* Ford Racing 5.0L 412 hp 32-valve DOHC crate engine
* Ford Racing 5.0L 4-valve modular crate engine control packs
* Moroso 7 1/2 qt. oil pan with oil pump pickup
* Vortech Engineering T-Rex fuel pump
* AEM adjustable fuel pressure regulator
* Liquid-filled fuel pressure gauge
* Powermaster XS torque starter
* Ford Racing 5.0L modular alternator kit
* Ford Racing speedometer adjuster
* Ford Racing composite intake manifold cover


347 Stroker $7,799.97

INCLUDES

* 350 hp at 5,500 rpm; 400 ft.-lbs of torque at 4,000 rpm with headers
* 10.5:1 compression ratio (nominal)
* Comp Cams 35-410-8 hydraulic roller camshaft
* Double roller timing chain set
* High-performance 7 qt. rear sump circle track oil pan
* Top brand-name billet distributor and head studs
* Ford Racing aluminum "X" cylinder heads with 1.94" intake and 1.54" exhaust valves
* Dual plane aluminum intake manifold
* 1.60:1 ratio roller rocker arms
* High-volume oil pump
* Ford Racing polished aluminum valve covers
* High-performance SFI-approved vibration damper
* Engine weight as equipped is 414 lbs. (includes 7 qts. of oil)
* Engine is internally balanced, "0" balance flywheel required
* 347 cubic inches, 4.030 in. bore and 3.400 in. stroke

DOES NOT INCLUDE
Carburetor Included:
No
Throttle Body Included:
No
Flexplate Included:
No
Flywheel Included:
No
Air Cleaner Included:
No
Spark Plugs Included:
No
Spark Plug Wires Included:
No
Computer Included:
No
Wiring Harness Included:
No

Both can be had for less if you buy rebuilt & secondhand.

Personally I don't think I would go with a carb to go cheap. With carbureted engine I would look to do a replica with a 427/428 engine.

[pcww]

See post #29. Both need initial setup and both will run forever. The narrative that you can't compare the price of Coyote w/EFI to a carb'd small block is simply a silly argument.

Did I miss something here. My post, #29 had nothing to do with a price comparison. I posed a question. See post #29 again and you will see I asked the questions but did not supply any answers. Frankly, I don't feel qualified to give them. But the point is I never mentioned price. I probably spent more on my Ford Crate with Holley EFI than a comparable Coyote.

[skullandbones]

Hi aarvig,

Your premise that the old style push rod engine is carb based and modern engines like the Coyote is EFI is wrong. Any engine can be EFI now. One possibility is to go with a tunable EFI system. Personally, I think the bottom line will be a little cheaper with a push rod engine except high dollar name crate engines. You are paying a premium for a Ford Racing full dressed version. Also, the variety of engine displacements for the push rod style is amazing (302, 347, 351, 363, 393, 408, 421, 427). You can find something that will fit your budget as well as your specific power need. What I'm referring to about the variety is getting a 408 for instance and putting a mild cam and good heads which will be a monster without pushing any reliability limits. The real advantage of the Coyote is it's simplicity since it is a complete matched system. It's also one of those engine that you put in and forget it. If you want to modify you might be able to add a more aggressive tune but forget the type of mix and match adaptability I eluded to above with the older style. I suppose you could go one step further and say that the Coyote would be more likely a candidate for a dealership working on it if something did ever go wrong with it much like an OEM daily driver with a comparable Coyote in it. You might ask yourself: if I was driving cross country, what would I like to have under the hood?

Good luck and interesting discussion.

WEK.

[Todd Buttrick]

Did I miss something here. My post, #29 had nothing to do with a price comparison. I posed a question. See post #29 again and you will see I asked the questions but did not supply any answers. Frankly, I don't feel qualified to give them. But the point is I never mentioned price. I probably spent more on my Ford Crate with Holley EFI than a comparable Coyote.

Your post was #30. I meant the PREVIOUS narrative, not yours.

[pcww]

Got it. Thanks. Henry

[the_tool_man]

This is great discussion. There is one other factor I haven't seen mentioned, however. When it does come time to rebuild the engine, or heaven forbid, some catastrophic failure causes damage, I think the cost for repairing/rebuilding a Windsor will be far less than a Coyote. Consider the complexity of the valvetrain in a DOHC engine with double the valves and four cams, VVT, chain guides and tensioners. Also, the bores are not sleeved in the Coyote engine. If a re-bore is required, it has to be sleeved or replaced. I used to DD a 1998 Mustang Cobra with the earlier 4.6 DOHC engine. I looked into rebuild costs as it passed 100k miles. Buying a new crate engine was about the same cost at the time. I realize most people don't put 100k miles on these cars. But oil pumps fail. Things happen. If you plan to keep the car forever, and put miles on it, you should at least consider it.

[edwardb]

Also, the bores are not sleeved in the Coyote engine. If a re-bore is required, it has to be sleeved or replaced...

Um, no. The Coyote has 0.060-inch-thick cast iron cylinder sleeves in the aluminum block.

Your point is a valid one though. The Coyote (and previous mod motors) are considerably more complex than an old school pushrod motor, and not as friendly for the DIY'er. But as you point out, most of us don't put nearly the miles on these as our DD's. Yea, stuff breaks. But it's going to be hard to beat the long term reliability of a modern factory built engine.

[the_tool_man]

Um, no. The Coyote has 0.060-inch-thick cast iron cylinder sleeves in the aluminum block.

I stand corrected. I thought the sprayed liner technology they developed was in all mod motors going forward. Good to know. Thanks.

[sread]

One thing nobody has brought up yet which is more of a carb vs efi consideration is the properties of modern pump gas - i.e. ethanol. It will vary some depending on your location but if you live someplace where the only thing available is ethanol (most major metropolitan areas) a vehicle which doesn't get driven very often equipped with a carb will soon become much more maintenance intensive/troublesome. As a lifelong mechanic and motorcycle owner I know firsthand the effects that modern pump gas has on fuel systems when allowed to sit idle for extended periods. For reasons unknown, some particular systems seem to be more susceptible than others. I have had fuel injected bikes sit for six months or more and will fire up at the touch of the button. Carbed - no way. Many start to have problems after sitting 3 - 4 weeks. I have seen bikes that sat for a couple of years in an unheated garage come in that were destroyed. The carbs so corroded that they were junk and just frozen solid. Fuel tanks rust terribly also if not kept full. Granted, there are additives such as Stabil, StarTron, etc that may help, but in my experience have limited effectiveness.
Anyways, just something else to consider.