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Thread: Chassis Set - Up

  1. #41
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    Stig- I remember reading a good article/thread a couple years back that, IIRC, involved David Borden. I don't think it was on this site. I will look through my saved items and see what I have.

    For a car like the GTM, I believe you should limit your shock search to a monotube design.

    I just picked up a set of Ohlins tt44s for the race car, but I will be the first one to admit that I am not a shock guru. I know what to adjust when things are not working properly at the track, or at least I know which directions to try, but the ins and outs of finite shock performance are so involved that I really don't have the time or energy to be an "expert". I simply pay someone who is to get the shocks close to what I need. Kind of like the engine tuning stuff. I could take a stab at it, but it would probably end up costing me more and my results wouldn't be as good, so why knock myself out? "A man's got to know his limitations".

    The Ohlins company is very "open" about their designs and applications. See these links for some interesting reading about general shock theory, application, and function.

    http://www.motorsportsspares.com/fil...and_design.pdf

    And

    http://www.motorsportsspares.com/fil...nd_valving.pdf
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  2. #42
    Senior Member The Stig's Avatar
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    I don't really want to hi-jack Ted & Ron's thread with shock choices. I should have put this in Roger's thread about Penske shocks. However I have found a shop here in Mooresville, NC which supplies shocks and shock tuning services for many of the NASCAR teams (that don't do it themselves). They have a set of Penske 7500 series dual adjustable at a reasonable price compared to some of the prices that I've seen. ($500 per shock). They are not remote reservoir, but I'm not sure if that's really a feature that I need to worry about, given how I intend to use the car.

    My question that I need to answer now, is what the shock length of the KONI shocks are, so I can get the correct sizing for the GTM. If I had it on the road, I'd just take it up to their shop and let them measure for the best fit and ride height. That may be the best idea anyway... Just wait until it's on the road, so I can explain what the car is doing, and what I need to change. They may have a more affordable solution that is just as good... I guess I won't know until I ask.
    Last edited by The Stig; 05-26-2011 at 08:04 AM.
    The Stig

    Some say, that I only know two facts about ducks, (both being wrong); and that if I could be bothered, I could solve the "da Vinci Code" in 47 seconds...
    All I know is that I'm called "The Stig".
    GTM #0081

  3. #43
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    The non reservoir shocks will do you just fine. I am doing just as you said. These tt44s came from an Indy Car team, so valving will have to be significantly altered, but I am not going to have this done until all other components are built and in place. There will always be good deals out there.
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  4. #44
    Member JCHRacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stig View Post
    I don't really want to hi-jack Ted & Ron's thread with shock choices. I should have put this in Roger's threat about Penske shocks. However I have found a shop here in Mooresville, NC which supplies shocks and shock tuning services for many of the NASCAR teams (that don't do it themselves). They have a set of Penske 7500 series dual adjustable at a reasonable price compared to some of the prices that I've seen. ($500 per shock). They are not remote reservoir, but I'm not sure if that's really a feature that I need to worry about, given how I intend to use the car.

    My question that I need to answer now, is what the shock length of the KONI shocks are, so I can get the correct sizing for the GTM. If I had it on the road, I'd just take it up to their shop and let them measure for the best fit and ride height. That may be the best idea anyway... Just wait until it's on the road, so I can explain what the car is doing, and what I need to change. They may have a more affordable solution that is just as good... I guess I won't know until I ask.
    The Penke 7500's are a good choice although the models I am familiar with are only single adjustable....for rebound...but a rebound adjustable is most likely enough unless you are really into different set-ups for different tracks/conditions. They do have a high pressure piston and reservoir....it's just integral with the main body of the shock.

    I have the FFR Koni lengths and can post them tonight if no one else does. Before you buy the same lengths, I would check to see if that is the correct length for you. I think the ffr length can go solid in compression in the rear if you are running a big diameter tire. I also think that in some cases the spring rattles free in droop. Both conditions are not optimum. If you are going to spend the money on custom shocks, you may want to spend some time measuring your set-up and adjusting the lengths accordingly.
    Last edited by JCHRacer; 05-25-2011 at 10:35 AM.
    Ciao,

    Joel

    Working ever so slowly on GTM #269, Twin Turbo SBC, Ricardo, Kit arrived April 5, 2009

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  5. #45
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    Here you go Stig - shock extended length is 15.75" - collapsed is 11.75" to the bump rubber. Keep the info on shocks coming.
    We need to check the suspension vs shock travel at both ends of the car at some point to see where the shock bottoms/tops out. Another test to add to the list, along with C/G height.
    Last edited by LS MAN; 05-25-2011 at 11:26 AM.

  6. #46
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    Stig-

    Here's the link to the forum/thread I was thinking of. David continues to be active on this thread and it continues to grow. Some really good info over there.

    http://forums.corner-carvers.com/showthread.php?t=41374

    About 170 posts long...enjoy!
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  7. #47
    Senior Member The Stig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crash View Post
    Stig-

    Here's the link to the forum/thread I was thinking of. David continues to be active on this thread and it continues to grow. Some really good info over there.

    http://forums.corner-carvers.com/showthread.php?t=41374

    About 170 posts long...enjoy!
    Thanks Mike. I'll read through it tonight. I appreciate it!
    The Stig

    Some say, that I only know two facts about ducks, (both being wrong); and that if I could be bothered, I could solve the "da Vinci Code" in 47 seconds...
    All I know is that I'm called "The Stig".
    GTM #0081

  8. #48
    Member JCHRacer's Avatar
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    Here is a link to a GTM specific thread where David Borden actually provided calculated damper rates:

    http://www.ffcars.com/forums/42-fact...es-shocks.html

    Dont know if the OP tested the set-up yet.
    Ciao,

    Joel

    Working ever so slowly on GTM #269, Twin Turbo SBC, Ricardo, Kit arrived April 5, 2009

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  9. #49
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    Hey Joel, thanks for the good info & link. No I have not tested it, have you?

  10. #50
    Junior Member Denny Olson's Avatar
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    Ted, Ron
    Great info coming from you guys! I've got 400 miles on my GTM now and happy for the most part as to how it drives at this point, so the initial settings must be okay. Goes straight under hard power up to 90mph, haven't been above 90 and haven't done any hard cornering yet. I do notice the choppy ride coming from the front and feel the springs are too stiff. Your sway bar option was not available when I assembled the car, so I will have move some items in the way to incorporate it. Anxious to follow your suspension progress on Ron's GTM.
    Thanks Denny

  11. #51
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    Hey Denny, good feedback. When we designed the sway bar kit, one of the main criteria was it had to fit onto already constructed cars. What parts do you have that may be in the way of the bar.
    What shocks are you using?
    Thanks

  12. #52
    Junior Member kbentzel's Avatar
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    LS Man,
    I have 6200 miles on mine with the FFR supplied shocks. Three black ones and one yellow.....FFR said other than the paint they are the same??? It was real twitchy at first. I reduced the rear toe in to 1/16 from 1/8 and that helped. Reducing the tire pressure on my PS IIs down to 24/26 from 32 helped as well. I would say I see more oversteer than understeer. I also get a fair amount of feed back to the wheel when the pavement is irregular or you hit bumps. It'll try to steer for you if you aren't paying attention. A more comfortable feel at triple digit speeds would be a welocome change. I appreciate this thread and if you come up with a shock/spring combo to go with the sway bar sign me up.
    Keith

  13. #53
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    Hey Keith, thanks for the info - I think I screwed up on the rear toe specs. We use 3/32" -1/8" toe in - not 3/16". Good to see 1/16" work for you.
    It just sucks when you get old!

  14. #54
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    Some info I pulled from the Koni site about the 30-5436 Yellow Coil Overs:



    More info here:

    http://www.koniracing.com/oval30.cfm

    And here:

    http://www.koniracing.com/images/File/30force.pdf
    Fred

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    GTM #22 - Worlds slowest build

  15. #55
    Administrator David's Avatar
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    The 7500 is a great shock and as you have found, they recently came out with a dual adjustable 7500. At $500 each, thats a great deal. Im thinking of them for the MK4 build. One thing I would like to know is what the compression adjustment affects. The rebound is bleed and affects slow shock speed(below 3-4 IPS). If the compression is the same, thats going to be a killer shock for the money!

    Def check your compressed and extended length at ride height. Sometimes non remote res shocks are longer than normal to allow for nitrogen space.

    David
    Mk4 Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?141-David-s-Mk4-Build-Thread

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    Few Cool GTM Parts: http://www.gtmbuild.com/parts.htm

  16. #56
    Senior Member The Stig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David View Post
    The 7500 is a great shock and as you have found, they recently came out with a dual adjustable 7500. At $500 each, thats a great deal. Im thinking of them for the MK4 build. One thing I would like to know is what the compression adjustment affects. The rebound is bleed and affects slow shock speed(below 3-4 IPS). If the compression is the same, thats going to be a killer shock for the money!

    Def check your compressed and extended length at ride height. Sometimes non remote res shocks are longer than normal to allow for nitrogen space.

    David
    Thanks Dave,

    I am working with a company called RE Suspension, here in Mooresville. They apparently do a lot of work with/for the NASCAR shops in the area. The tech that I am working with did mention that the shock lengths are usually a bit longer with standard shock bodies, versus remote reservoir shocks.

    Ted gave the extended and compressed lengths of the KONI shocks that comes with the GTM kit. But I am starting to think that I need the shock length (at ride height) in order to get a feel for how much compression I need to account for as the car sits.

    I am also concerned about the shock body length, since I am installing the "RamLift Pro" hydraulic lift kit. When that lift is activated, it extends the shock by a couple of inches, in order to help clear speed bumps and driveway entries.

    If the "droop" is 2" then I would imagine that I will be Ok. But if it's only an inch, I would give up the other inch of extention in ground clearance. And I also don't want the lift to put repeated (negative) pressure against the shock body, rods, and internal components.

    I need to go ahead and order the shocks, but I don't have my car to measure the corner weights. Would it be advisable to use the weights that Ron and Ted posted previously in this thread? I know they wouldn't be exact, but I would imagine that it would be a close comparison in weight.

    Left Front - 572 # Right Front - 574 # Cross Weight - 1385 #

    Left Rear - 811 # Right Rear - 809 # Cross Weight - 1381 #

    What else would the technician need in order to set the shocks up for initial use?

    Thanks for your help.

    Ted / Ron, are you still planning to create a video for setting the toe at the front and rear? These videos are a huge help in understanding the set up process.
    Last edited by The Stig; 06-09-2011 at 10:23 AM.
    The Stig

    Some say, that I only know two facts about ducks, (both being wrong); and that if I could be bothered, I could solve the "da Vinci Code" in 47 seconds...
    All I know is that I'm called "The Stig".
    GTM #0081

  17. #57
    Member JCHRacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stig View Post
    Thanks Dave,

    I am working with a company called RE Suspension, here in Mooresville. They apparently do a lot of work with/for the NASCAR shops in the area. The tech that I am working with did mention that the shock lengths are usually a bit longer with standard shock bodies, versus remote reservoir shocks.

    Ted gave the extended and compressed lengths of the KONI shocks that comes with the GTM kit. But I am starting to think that I need the shock length (at ride height) in order to get a feel for how much compression I need to account for as the car sits.

    I am also concerned about the shock body length, since I am installing the "RamLift Pro" hydraulic lift kit. When that lift is activated, it extends the shock by a couple of inches, in order to help clear speed bumps and driveway entries.

    If the "droop" is 2" then I would imagine that I will be Ok. But if it's only an inch, I would give up the other inch of extention in ground clearance. And I also don't want the lift to put repeated (negative) pressure against the shock body, rods, and internal components.

    I need to go ahead and order the shocks, but I don't have my car to measure the corner weights. Would it be advisable to use the weights that Ron and Ted posted previously in this thread. I know they wouldn't be exact, but I would imagine that it would be a close comparison in weight.

    Left Front - 572 # Right Front - 574 # Cross Weight - 1385 #

    Left Rear - 811 # Right Rear - 809 # Cross Weight - 1381 #

    What else would the technician need in order to set the shocks up for initial use?

    Thanks for your help.

    Ted / Ron, are you still planning to create a video for setting the toe at the front and rear? these videos are a huge help in understanding the set up process.
    I have a CAD model set up with the stock FFR/Corvette suspension system. If you can tell me what ride heights and tire diameters you are running, I can tell you the static position of the shock (eye to eye distance). I have also posted the motion ratio's in the other thread. That, plus the corner weights you have posted should be enough for the shock technition to determine the correct shock lengths. Are you specifying the springs to be used?
    Ciao,

    Joel

    Working ever so slowly on GTM #269, Twin Turbo SBC, Ricardo, Kit arrived April 5, 2009

    http://photobucket.com/JCHRacer_GTM_Build

  18. #58
    Senior Member The Stig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCHRacer View Post
    I have a CAD model set up with the stock FFR/Corvette suspension system. If you can tell me what ride heights and tire diameters you are running, I can tell you the static position of the shock (eye to eye distance). I have also posted the motion ratio's in the other thread. That, plus the corner weights you have posted should be enough for the shock technition to determine the correct shock lengths. Are you specifying the springs to be used?
    Thanks Joel, that would be great!

    Front Tires are 245/40/18" (diameter - 25.712")
    Rear Tires are 335/30/18" (diameter - 25.912")

    Ride Height will be 4" - 4.5" (depending on how much real lift I get from the RamLift system).

    Thanks for your help.
    Last edited by The Stig; 06-07-2011 at 04:09 PM.
    The Stig

    Some say, that I only know two facts about ducks, (both being wrong); and that if I could be bothered, I could solve the "da Vinci Code" in 47 seconds...
    All I know is that I'm called "The Stig".
    GTM #0081

  19. #59
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    LS MAN/Ron,

    With the amount of tuning that you did, and showing us how sensitive the adjustments to the spring can be, would it be best to do that type of fine tuning with the driver in his seat? It seems that having a driver seated would give a better final balance?

    Great work btw... I learned quite a bit.

  20. #60
    LS MAN's Avatar
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    Hey Maudi, checking your corner weights with a driver in the seat is Ok, but we usually don't. The driver position in the GTM is probably close to the C/G front to rear, so may not affect the F/R balance too much. Of course the driver will add left side weight, but not a lot you can do to a street car to balance that out. Adding a passenger would even the balance out. For street cars set your chassis without the driver, its easier to balance that way, & just accept that the driver will add left side weight. On a Road race car, move weight around to the right side in the vehicle to balance the drivers weight, & then always set the chassis with the driver or equivalent weight in the seat. On a oval track car you generally want as much left side weight as you can get, so they stack as much weight as they can on the left side, sometimes up to 60% left side or more as rules allow.

    Just did more work on Ron's car today, so will post some updates soon.

    Thanks

  21. #61
    Member Ron565's Avatar
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    Just wanted to give you a little update. Ted and I finally had some time to play with my suspension. We started with installing the rear custom Bilstein coilovers with the 600 lbs springs on the back. It's the first time that the car has the Bilsteins on all four corners.
    We took it out for a spin. WOW I can't put it in words. It handles like a ultra high performance production sports car. You put in a turn in third gear and you think that your at it's limits and then you grab 4th and you keep on going and going and going! GONE.
    Sorry Ted old buddy, you can't have your shocks back LOL. With the racing shocks and lighter springs it's perfection on wheels. We took some videos today and as soon Ted edits them he will post them. It's pretty go stuff about how to check and setup your rear chassis. Hope you guys and gals will like it. Happy Building, Ron
    Last edited by Ron565; 06-09-2011 at 11:28 AM.

  22. #62
    Junior Member Hitechmotorsports's Avatar
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    Cool....good info.
    Last edited by Hitechmotorsports; 09-29-2011 at 06:23 PM.

  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitechmotorsports View Post
    Cool....can't wait. Like most mine handles like poop above 60 mph.
    I want a GTM badly, but when I read about the handling I get a bit nervous. I understand it can be corrected, but it seems to add more time and more money. In the end, how well can they be made to handle with other coilover kits, alignment shims, changes, etc? Good luck to all....

  24. #64
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    Take your Honda Civic, or whatever you drive daily, randomly "adjust" the suspension and then tell me how well it performs at high speeds!

    Point is that this is not an inherent flaw of a GTM. It is a flaw that builders are not setting them up correctly.

    Set a stock GTM up correctly and it will beat the pants off of just about anything. If you then want things to be more comfortable in the 100 MPH range because you really think you will be spending quite a bit of time up there, then start making all these performance changes.

    I see nothing here that I wouldn't want to do to my daily driver to get more high end performance out of it.

    Does this mean that FFR built the GTM wrong? NO!

    Does this mean that Ted's products are not needed? NO!

    It means that we build these cars for different purposes and different items are needed depending upon what we are building for, and no matter what you are building for, if the alignment is off, then the car, whatever car you have, will not be fun or comfortable to drive.

    I do believe Ted is trying to address both issues with this thread. He is helping builders out by suggesting settings and showing you how to do the alignment, at least I think he is going to, and he is also offering items to help the GTM at higher speeds perform better. Same as any local tuner shop does for the ricers, but Ted is focused on GTMs and more meat than bling as far as solutions are concerned. At least that's what I understand from working with the guy.
    Last edited by crash; 06-09-2011 at 11:12 AM.
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  25. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by crash View Post
    Take your Honda Civic, or whatever you drive daily, randomly "adjust" the suspension and then tell me how well it performs at high speeds!

    Point is that this is not an inherent flaw of a GTM. It is a flaw that builders are not setting them up correctly.

    Set a stock GTM up correctly and it will beat the pants off of just about anything. If you then want things to be more comfortable in the 100 MPH range because you really think you will be spending quite a bit of time up there, then start making all these performance changes.

    I see nothing here that I wouldn't want to do to my daily driver to get more high end performance out of it.

    Does this mean that FFR built the GTM wrong? NO!

    Does this mean that Ted's products are not needed? NO!

    It means that we build these cars for different purposes and different items are needed depending upon what we are building for, and no matter what you are building for, if the alignment is off, then the car, whatever car you have, will not be fun or comfortable to drive.

    I do believe Ted is trying to address both issues with this thread. He is helping builders out by suggesting settings and showing you how to do the alignment, at least I think he is going to, and he is also offering items to help the GTM at higher speeds perform better. Same as any local tuner shop does for the ricers, but Ted is focused on GTMs and more meat than bling as far as solutions are concerned. At least that's what I understand from working with the guy.
    .

    Agree with you, as long as it is not a flaw of the GTM that's cool. Everyone has different goals. Mine will be best handling and high speed stability for the street. Looks like it can be done.

  26. #66
    Member Ron565's Avatar
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    Cool Going fast

    Suspension setup is just another step in completing any build. Make no bones about it the GTM is thoroughbred and needs a little more attention to detail than most. With that said, We have a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum that are willing to share their Racing knowledge like Ted. It's the stuff no one tells you like using a two pieces aluminum two tape measures and a piece of string to set up your chassis. That's brilliant stuff.

    I can say with no reservations that my car can now go over 100 without any el effects regarding handling.
    It's smooth even going down a old and bumpy country road, If I was to go that fast.

    Happy Building, Ron
    Last edited by Ron565; 06-09-2011 at 11:35 AM.

  27. #67
    LS MAN's Avatar
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    Checking the front toe settings on Ron's car.


  28. #68
    Senior Member VD2021's Avatar
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    This thread makes me curious as to how much R&D FFR put into the suspension. I don't care about wind tunnel testing. Few would see a GTM and not know it’s more aerodynamic than a SUV. Redirect those resources to the drivability.

    Maybe we can get Dave to contract Ted to really turn out GTMs into a driver's dream.


    JMO.
    R/s
    Vidal
    CURRENT STATUS: Interior Rework and Bodywork.
    GenII GTM #331. Delivered (23/9/10)
    BUILD LOG AND WEBSITE:
    http://gtmbuild.weebly.com/ .

  29. #69
    Member Ron565's Avatar
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    Hi Vidal,

    I think FFR has addressed the issue. This is normal chassis tuning stuff. Factory Five Racing builds street legal race car's like the name implies.
    I agree that FFR leaves a lot of stuff to the builders. That's the reason for the Forum. If anyone is in northern California and needs Ted and I to set up their car we would be happy to do so.

    Happy Building, Ron

  30. #70
    Senior Member VD2021's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron565 View Post
    Hi Vidal,

    I think FFR has addressed the issue. This is normal chassis tuning stuff. Factory Five Racing builds street legal race car's like the name implies.
    I agree that FFR leaves a lot of stuff to the builders. That's the reason for the Forum. If anyone is in northern California and needs Ted and I to set up their car we would be happy to do so.

    Happy Building, Ron
    Ron,
    No worries. How about you bring Ted to the "happiest place on earth". I'm just dont the street from there.
    R/s
    Vidal
    CURRENT STATUS: Interior Rework and Bodywork.
    GenII GTM #331. Delivered (23/9/10)
    BUILD LOG AND WEBSITE:
    http://gtmbuild.weebly.com/ .

  31. #71
    Member Ron565's Avatar
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    I can't tell you how much I have learned from Ted, Jim and Prototype development. It's a big learning curve. Ron

  32. #72
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    Where is the video for the rear, or is rear done the sameway?

  33. #73
    Member Ron565's Avatar
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    Hey sv650s,

    Yes it is. We will post the numbers soon. Ron

  34. #74
    LS MAN's Avatar
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    Here is the video for setting the rear toe


  35. #75
    LS MAN's Avatar
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    Here is a video on using HP Tuners - scanner.


  36. #76
    Senior Member VD2021's Avatar
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    Ted,
    Had you been able to access the PCM what perimeters would you have adjusted? I still get the P0171 and 74 codes every so often during my karting. I would just set them to not set a code, but I would prefer to tune as a resolution. There is a lot to the HP Tuner and it seams the more I read the more questions I have.
    R/s
    Vidal
    CURRENT STATUS: Interior Rework and Bodywork.
    GenII GTM #331. Delivered (23/9/10)
    BUILD LOG AND WEBSITE:
    http://gtmbuild.weebly.com/ .

  37. #77
    Member spytech's Avatar
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    This is a great thread, very informative.

    Not to divert the thread, but I thought I would post my GTM's suspension setup, as many that follow my build log have messaged me for 'details' now that I've fixed my high speed stability problems. Ride height is 4.25" at all four corners. Front has 3/16" toe-in, rear has 1/8" toe-in. Using the FFR black koni and no sway bar yet. Bump steer is set with 5 washers on top of the tie rod, one on the bottom. Right now I can drive one-handed at 120 on rough pavement. Driving on the highway at 80 is effortless, and it takes a pretty severe pothole to really make the car jump. Tire pressures are at 30 front, 26 rear. Fronts tires are 245/40/18, rears are 335/30/18.

    I want to get the rear up to 4.75" but I need to get a tool to compress the springs as I can't get more adjustment out of my passenger rear coil without compressing the spring to get a few more turns. For what it's worth, it seems that one full turn on the FFR koni coils equates to a 1/4" difference in ride height for that corner. I plan on adding the sway bar, but need to figure out how to reroute the brake lines around it...Probably a winter project.

  38. #78
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    Thanks spy for posting up your final specs. Since I don't want to fight the alignment guys I'm just gonna tell them to get it as close to what you have and go from there. I noticed that you said that you have 5 washers on top of the tie rod now. In your build log you have a pic with three on top of the tie rod it looks like. I assume that this was your inital setup and you changed to 5 fr a better feel.

    Thanks to LSman again for bringing this to my attention with this thread. I have found a guy with a setup like yours, he is going to help me do the weight bias.

  39. #79
    Administrator David's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer86 View Post
    hey Stig, remember if you mount a shock upside down, your bump and rebound settings in the shock are aLso reversed. Not a great idea unless the shock is set up to handle this
    If im reading this right, you are saying that if you invert a shock it changes the valving(inverting it as well)?

    If Im reading your statement correct, that is incorrect/not accurate. Shocks are valved based on compression and rebound and that does not change based on how the shock mounted(body or down)

    If I miss ready your statement, please clarify.
    David
    Mk4 Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?141-David-s-Mk4-Build-Thread

    GTM Project Build site: http://www.gtmbuild.com

    Few Cool GTM Parts: http://www.gtmbuild.com/parts.htm

  40. #80
    Junior Member Racer86's Avatar
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    David,, your correct,, I need to slow down a bit and think before I post, sorry about that,,my bad

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