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Thread: Rob T's 818R Build Thread

  1. #81
    TRACK DAY UPDATE: Buttonwilow #25 CCW. It is a VARA race weekend, so lots of cool cars to see. Sunny, light wind, 80 - 85. I did the afternoon session. 3X's on the track. It's been 11 months since I have been out and this was the first time out on the "new" motor. 320HP, 300ft-lb tune with speed density. WOW...the car was amazing. Engine is smooth and the acceleration is fantastic. I was not pushing too hard yet. The sessions were 30 minutes, on the hour. First session: Oil 190F, Awic 102F, Water 190 F, Average Heart rate 131 (a bit nervous - peaked at 151). Oil pressure was 85+ and rock steady - even through the long left hand sweeper. 45 psi when idling/hot. Second session: Oil 215F, Awic 106F, Water 190F, Average heart rate 129 (getting more relaxed - peaked at 144). Oil pressures about the same. Third session - I was pushing harder and it was warmer: Oil 240F, Awic 108, Water 210, Average heart rate 122 (more in the groove - peaked at 137). I will post data/video later. 240F on the oil is at the limit for me. A cool down lap brought the oil back to 200 and the Water back to 190. I was running a single oil cooler in the back, with air intakes from the side scoops. I am planning on re-establishing at least one of the front coolers, especially for when it is 100F here. I know the car is running more boost than before, so the AWIC temps are not surprising. I used to get ambient +10F. Now it looks like ambient +20F.

    I also used an IR to get tire temps before its battery went dead. I am running Hoosiers. On the second session: LF 121F, RF 115F, LR 123F, RR 127F 28psi when I started the session.

    I still have a lot to learn as a driver, but it was a good day.

  2. #82
    Great report Rob. I'm glad to hear your car is running so well.
    A little surprising on the oil temp. After looking at your car last weekend I thought your oil cooler setup was pretty slick. Before you run oil lines to the front and add a cooler I would try two things.

    A) Block off one of the two air scoops feeding the common plenum for the cooler. When there is more than one intake feeding a common plenum you can actually lose pressure out the other intake unless they are balanced perfectly.
    B) Add a fan inside the plenum to force air thru the cooler even when there's not enough speed to pressurize the air by the scoop alone. Mount it directly on top of the cooler, like a radiator fan. Be sure you get a pusher or puller style depending on which side of the cooler you mount it!
    Edit: Now that I look at the pics I took, is there already a fan on the cooler? Is it working correctly?

    And when reading your tire temps try to get three readings per tire, in the middle and about an inch inside each sidewall, that will tell you a lot more about your setup. The IR reader is ok for occasional use, when/if you get more serious a real temp probe with a needle you stick in the tire will be much more accurate. But for now the IR reader will work fine.
    Last edited by Sgt.Gator; 10-07-2017 at 09:51 AM.
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  3. #83
    Gator: Thanks for the pointers. There are puller fans on the back side of the oil cooler. I don't know if they were running or not. They were not when I got back there, but by then the oil was "cooler". I am not sure what the thermostat temp is for the fans to run. I need to do a little bit more investigation. I will also take a look to see how the plenum is set up on the intake. Right now, the "dryer hose" is just mounted in the scoop and a lot of air can bypass it to the rear wheels. I was thinking a little larger scoop might improve the flow. The other thing I was thinking of was doing a three way valve arrangement in the oil lines so that, based on conditions, I could route the oil to the forward coolers or not. My challenge is going to be many available track days when the ambient temp is 100 - 105.

    Certainly a few things to work out, but running well. Rob

  4. #84
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    Sounds like a fun day Rob, congrats.

  5. #85
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    Rob, I had to go bigger on the radiator to keep the water temps in check. You should be running 27-28 psi HOT tire temps with the Hoosier A7's. start with 24 cold. you need a tire temp gauge that has the pointy tip, much better readings than an IR. You need to check the tire temps in the outside edge 1" from the tread edge, the very middle of the tire and 1" from the inside edge.
    Wayne Presley www.verycoolparts.com
    Xterminator 705 RWHP supercharged 4.6 DOHC with twin turbos

  6. #86
    Thanks, Wayne. I was ending up about 31 Hot and the letting some are out back to 28 before the next series.

    Who has a found a tire temperature gauge (with the tiny point) that they really like?

  7. #87
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    http://www.longacreracing.com/products.aspx?itemid=1721 I have had a Standard Memory Pyrometer for years but really the Accutech gauge does a great job.
    https://www.summitracing.com/search/...pe/Pyrometers/

    Rob have you thought about adding a water-oil cooler in addition to the air to oil you have? Would eliminate a lot of the plumbing and they are nice and compact. Here are some examples https://www.summitracing.com/search?...0oil%20coolers
    Anyway there are a number of options, I think Bob is using a marine heat exchanger.

  8. #88
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    Ah man I'm happy it finally worked!!! Keep it on going! And smoke all those cars! Only you can finish 1st!
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  9. #89

  10. #90
    Screen Shot Traq Studio.jpg

    Best Lap From Friday. Buttonwillow 25 CCW. About 4 seconds faster than the last time I was there. Still learning and a lot more in the car.

  11. #91
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    Can you send me your Traqmate files so I can see what you are doing? [email protected]
    Wayne Presley www.verycoolparts.com
    Xterminator 705 RWHP supercharged 4.6 DOHC with twin turbos

  12. #92

  13. #93
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    Awesome Rob - glad you are getting it dialed in.

  14. #94
    Spent the weekend cleaning up the front oil cooling circuit: 12 AN line, and a cooler ducted in two intakes in the front. After the engine rebuild, I went with just the back cooler. Oil got to 240+ at 6/10 driving, so I am going to bypass the rear cooler and hook up the front two. They should get better airflow and can be taped off depending on temperature conditions. They have not been used since the engine died. I used compressed air to backflow the oil out of the lines. No Metal....whew? The lines have been "washed" using hot water and some Dawn. They have been dried with compressed air. I will keep drying them for a while, but there is no water flowing out like when I started. I am doing 1-minute blasts at about 100 psi, until my compressor is bled down. Probably did 30+ cycles today.

    Now for the question. Does anybody have a good idea how to pre-charge the lines and the coolers with oil? I used a little HF pump to circulate the soapy water (worked awesome), but they are not for oil. Pressure? Vacuum? I'd like to get them mostly full before I connect them to the dry sump circuit so I don't starve the system for oil. I'd also like to be doubly sure all the water is gone. I have an adapter fitting to go 1/2NPT to the 12AN fitting. From that, I can do just about anything. Ideas? Thanks,

  15. #95
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    I'd probably feel OK with what you've done if you have a filter before oil goes into the engine. A buddy just lost a second engine because he forgot to replace or even attempt to clean his oil cooler. I have my cooler after the filter but in this instance a filter last might be wise.
    I have been using air pressure to push Torco out of its five gallon can. A fitting in the lid or a continuous hose to the bottom of the container and then a small hole for blowing in air is all it takes. That and pretty low air pressure. I also use an old pressure cooker and vacuum/pressure for similar tasks such as refilling shocks.
    "Scotty, give me all the TRACTION she's got!" Pictures of what I drive till 818R is finished

  16. #96
    Thanks. I was thinking about modifying a garden sprayer. Any down-sides? I'd start with a new one. I like the idea of it being re-fillable and the hose with a shut-off.

  17. #97
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob T View Post
    Thanks. I was thinking about modifying a garden sprayer. Any down-sides? I'd start with a new one. I like the idea of it being re-fillable and the hose with a shut-off.
    Should handle motor oil. Only thing I can think of is that it might be rather small ID'd for oil's viscosity and might aerate the oil if not plumbed well. I'm sure you can deal with that and possible upgrade to a different valve/other tubing.
    "Scotty, give me all the TRACTION she's got!" Pictures of what I drive till 818R is finished

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob T View Post
    Now for the question. Does anybody have a good idea how to pre-charge the lines and the coolers with oil? I used a little HF pump to circulate the soapy water (worked awesome), but they are not for oil. Pressure? Vacuum? I'd like to get them mostly full before I connect them to the dry sump circuit so I don't starve the system for oil. I'd also like to be doubly sure all the water is gone. I have an adapter fitting to go 1/2NPT to the 12AN fitting. From that, I can do just about anything. Ideas? Thanks,
    Which side of the scavenge pump is the oil cooler on? If it is on the pressure side you can disconnect an inlet hose, drop it in an oil jug, pull the belt off and turn the pump by hand to push oil through.
    818R Build date 10/31/15

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielsDM View Post
    Which side of the scavenge pump is the oil cooler on? If it is on the pressure side you can disconnect an inlet hose, drop it in an oil jug, pull the belt off and turn the pump by hand to push oil through.
    The pressure pump is still the OEM crank driven pump so that won't work
    Wayne Presley www.verycoolparts.com
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  20. #100
    Since the motor did not have a catastrophic failure while running, you should be fine with the cleaning you did. Hopefully, Yimi replaced the the OEM "Oil Cooler" that the oil filter spins on. When we had motors that really blow up, we send the oil coolers to aviation shops to have them ultrasonically cleaned. That was with expensive Porsche oil coolers- Might be cheaper to buy a new Setrab in that case- But I really think the coolers are ok since the car let go while cranking the motor on the trailer and not running at speed.
    Thanks- Chad
    818R-SOLD!!!- Go Karted 7/20/14/ Officially raced NASA ST2- 2/28/15
    2016 Elan NP01 Prototype Racecar Chassis #20
    1969 Porsche 911ST Vintage Race Car
    1972 Porsche 911T (#'s matching undergoing nut & bolt resto in my garage)

  21. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Presley View Post
    The pressure pump is still the OEM crank driven pump so that won't work
    I know his system uses the internal pump for pressure, but where are the coolers in the layout? If I remember correctly they are between the scavenge pump and the reservoir, or were, Chad was changing things up trying to chase down the oil temp issue.
    Last edited by DanielsDM; 10-16-2017 at 11:47 AM.
    818R Build date 10/31/15

  22. #102
    The coolers are in the correct loop. Keep in mind that with the old motor, and all the coolers hooked up, it was a struggle to get the oil temps to 180 degrees after the fix. Now the new motor is creating alot more power (heat) than what I had.

    1. I would just hook them all up and go from there. All the oil lines are there and would connect easily. Don't forget to account for the extra lines and coolers when adding oil. Make sure to check level after it gets to operating temp.
    2. The thermostat switch for the rear cooler fans is near the top of tank- They come on at 180 degrees. You can easily test with a heat gun and ignition on to make sure fans are coming on.
    3. The oil temp sender is near the bottom of the oil tank.
    Thanks- Chad
    818R-SOLD!!!- Go Karted 7/20/14/ Officially raced NASA ST2- 2/28/15
    2016 Elan NP01 Prototype Racecar Chassis #20
    1969 Porsche 911ST Vintage Race Car
    1972 Porsche 911T (#'s matching undergoing nut & bolt resto in my garage)

  23. #103
    I verified the back coolers yesterday. They come on at 180. I was able to get to 180 idling/revving in the garage.

  24. #104
    I did a bunch of work on the oil system this weekend. After a lot of talking with a number of people, I decided to take a stepwise approach. When I got the car back from Yimisport, the dry sump was plumbed as follows: 2 Scavenge lines to the discharge of the pump to the bottom of the Spintric. From the Spintric, the liquid exit went to the rear Setrab 16X6 oil cooler mounted in the back of the car. This unit has two Spal fans rated at 342cfm and thermostatically controlled at 180F. The exit of the cooler went to the oil tank. Remember, I am using a gravity feed to the OEM oil pump in the car. Pressure is rock steady, always. In this configuration, I got to 240F oil temp my last session at about 7/10 driving with an 85F ambient air temp.

    I talked to John at Aviaid, who built the pump. Each of the two scavenge elements is rated for 16gpm. The combined discharge can go as high as 275psi, if restricted (will not be possible with my set up). John said that with a scavenge system, 80% of what is pumped can be air. I then talked to Marv Beals at Setrab. He said that the oil cooler would not have an issue with the air and they did not get air bound like a pressurized radiator system. He suggested trying the spintric after cooler. He also said it did not matter which side of the cooler was supply or return

    So today, I re-piped everything. Now the two scavenge pumps combine and discharge to the inlet of the Setrab oil cooler on the side with the thermostat. From the discharge side of the cooler, the oil/air goes to the inlet of the spintric. Both the liquid line and the air line from the spintric go to the tank.

    I ran the car on the trailer and I can say that it appears to take longer for the oil to heat and I was not able to get it as hot as I did before I made the change (both tests run on the trailer). Today, the fans came on and were doing a great job of removing heat from the oil. Obviously, I won't know the full score until I get back to the track, but I don't see how it will hurt having 100% of the oil (with some air) go through the cooler. My working theory at this point is that the spintric may have been bypassing a significant amount of oil to the tank through the air line and effectively bypassing the cooler. I know that the cooler was hot before, but not how efficiently it was running. So some oil was getting to the cooler. Now, everything is going to the cooler.

    If this new set up does not provide adequate cooling, it will be a simple matter to add back in the front coolers. The are clean, dry, plugged and lashed down pending the next step.

    I also built my first braided AN 12 line today. A hot rod friend of mine told me about a fitting that is made by Koul Tools. You clamp the nut in it and twist in the braided line. Practically magic. No stuck fingers. No hassles. They sell kits with all the different sizes. Awesome.

  25. #105
    I was told to run nothing between the scavenge lines and the tank. We run pressure through the cooler to the engine. Would rather run it tank, cooler, filter, pump, engine, scavenge, tank, etc. rather than tank, pump, filter, cooler, engine, scavenge, tank.

    Thoughts?

  26. #106
    Jeff, I think the usual is Pan>Scavenge Lines> DS Pump> Cooler > DS Tank > gravity feed line from Tank to OEM Pump > then either thru the OEM Cooler/Heater or use a sandwich plate to an additional cooler, or just the filter > Engine, back to pan and repeat. I believe part of the reason for the cooler between the DS pump and the tank is to cool the oil before it hits the tank so the air will come out of the oil better. Hot oil entrains the air more than cooler oil.
    See: https://www.drysump.com/index.php/te...ry-sump-system "The remaining stages "scavenge" the oil out of the dry sump pan and return the oil (and air) to the top of the tank or reservoir. If an oil cooler is used usually it is mounted inline between the scavenge outlets and the tank."

    DS LS system diagram from ARE, not a Subaru, but is utilizing the OEM oil pump like a Subaru system does:



    Rob had his setup with the spintric as suggested before, but maybe his new routing will help. The way ARE suggests the Spintric:

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  27. #107
    Gator is right. I had it like the diagram shown last above. However, after talking to Gary at Spintric, the pressure drop through the cooler on the separated liquid side of the spintric may have been too large. So, by going through the cooler first, then to the spintric, the spintric can remove the air with virtually no pressure drop as both the liquid and "air" discharges of the spintric go right to the tank. One other thought I had was that a little bit of back pressure might help me keep the oil cooler full. When lookin at elevation, the bottom of the cooler is about even with the bottom of the spintric, which is mounted vertically. A trip to the track will answer this.

    Chad thinks he remembers moving the spintric "last" as his last adjustment before I bought the car. In this configuration, with all three oil coolers on, I could only get the oil to 190 on a 105F day. Now I just have the one cooler, which I hope will give me 200+ so I can evaporate the condensation, etc. out of the oil.

    After my 15 minute trailer test, with revs up to 6,000rpm and sustained about 3,000, there were zero bubbles in the oil.

  28. #108
    interesting. I don't like running the pickup oil through the cooler, even without the air being and issue, just in case you lose a bearing. I do like the thought of running the oil through the filter first, how much air removal can you expect out of a filter?

  29. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by RetroRacing View Post
    interesting. I don't like running the pickup oil through the cooler, even without the air being an issue, just in case you lose a bearing. I do like the thought of running the oil through the filter first, how much air removal can you expect out of a filter?
    Do you mean thru the Spintric first? It's not a filter, it's a way to spin the oil/airstream to separate out the oil from the air before it hits the tank. ARE claims it makes a big difference and some of the guys on the Corvette forum says it lowered their oil temps quite a bit. I don't know if any of the NASCAR guys are using them or not.
    Owner: Colonel Red Racing
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  30. #110
    No, just wanted to know if you could run a filter between the DS pump and the cooler/tank to keep them clean in case of a failure. Looking into it, I don't think there is enough pressure to push the oil through the filter. The spintric looks interesting, but we don't have oil cooling issues (40 row cooler) now, but if you push half air half oil through the oil cooler, I can see it becoming one.

    Maybe a lower restriction screen filter?

  31. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by RetroRacing View Post
    No, just wanted to know if you could run a filter between the DS pump and the cooler/tank to keep them clean in case of a failure. Looking into it, I don't think there is enough pressure to push the oil through the filter. The spintric looks interesting, but we don't have oil cooling issues (40 row cooler) now, but if you push half air half oil through the oil cooler, I can see it becoming one.

    Maybe a lower restriction screen filter?
    Usually, there are screens on the AN fittings that screw into the DS pan in front of the scavenge lines to the DS pump. They are really large though, they might catch pebbles! They are supposed to keep the DS pump from being destroyed. You could put a larger screen size filter on the pump to tank line. Like a 140 micron size Earl's filter. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/e...2erl/overview/
    Owner: Colonel Red Racing
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    818R ICSCC SPM and HPDE Rental at Oregon Raceway Park
    2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM, NASA ST3
    Palatov DP4 - ICSCC & SCCA Sports Racer and HPDE Rental at Oregon Raceway Park
    Race Videos at www.facebook.com/ColRedRacing

  32. #112
    We do have screen fittings in the ds pan to grab the big stuff, I do have a dash 12 inline filter hanging out on the bench doing nothing, so that sounds like a winner.
    Going to totally redo the plumbing and put the filter back in the stock location, run the ds return through the cooler. That gets rid of over 10' of dash 10 line under pressure.

  33. #113
    Here's a quick update: Spent yesterday replacing the shifter cables on the K-tuned shifter. After the car had the motor rebuilt, the shop ran them under the motor (bad) and they got scorched on the header. They worked one time at the track. I got the new cables and some pointers from Wayne at Very Cool Parts (Thanks Wayne). With a little help from my wife snaking them through, the job is done. WOW - the shifter is really amazing now. I can't believe how bad the old cables were damaged. Very smooth. I did what Wayne suggested and paid careful attention to the locations of the nuts and how far down the threads the spring clips were (not sure of the technical name). I threaded the cables from the front to the back, left them hanging in the back and connected everything up front first, then finished the back. They went in easier than I expected. Next track day in December.

  34. #114
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    Glad it worked out for you!
    Wayne Presley www.verycoolparts.com
    Xterminator 705 RWHP supercharged 4.6 DOHC with twin turbos

  35. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob T View Post
    I just acquired Chad Plavan's 818R on 1/31/16. After his excellent work, and the advice from others on the forum, I am starting my own "build" thread. While the car is "built", I have a lot to learn, both mechanically and from a driving perspective. I plan to share my journey here and to learn from those who already well versed.
    Rob, Hey trying to find a built car or a builder in my area ---Erie PA ----Have you heard of anyone. in the PA , Cleveland, Buffalo or Pittsburgh area?

  36. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by psitter View Post
    Rob, Hey trying to find a built car or a builder in my area ---Erie PA ----Have you heard of anyone. in the PA , Cleveland, Buffalo or Pittsburgh area?
    I can build you one, a very nice 818R. What did you have in mind?
    Wayne Presley www.verycoolparts.com
    Xterminator 705 RWHP supercharged 4.6 DOHC with twin turbos

  37. #117
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    Rob, which cables are you using, VCP's race (brownish) cables?

    Crossing fingers next run you can have a perfect one!
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  38. #118
    I am using the brownish ones I got from Wayne at VCP. The other ones were the same, but did not live well next to the manifold. I routed the new ones high like Chad had it originally. The guys who did the engine for me didn't really pay attention, but the cables were toast from the dyno break in and the tuning. I moved them off the manifold and managed to get one track day, but the damage was done. These new cables are sweet. Thanks for the well wishes. I hope it goes well, too, and it is dry (it never rains in southern CA). Two things to figure out (other than my driving skills) at the track: how the new shifter cables work AND if my recent changes to the oil routing (scavenge pump->cooler->spintric->tank) gives me enough cooling for higher loads.

  39. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob T View Post
    I am using the brownish ones I got from Wayne at VCP. The other ones were the same, but did not live well next to the manifold. I routed the new ones high like Chad had it originally. The guys who did the engine for me didn't really pay attention, but the cables were toast from the dyno break in and the tuning. I moved them off the manifold and managed to get one track day, but the damage was done. These new cables are sweet. Thanks for the well wishes. I hope it goes well, too, and it is dry (it never rains in southern CA). Two things to figure out (other than my driving skills) at the track: how the new shifter cables work AND if my recent changes to the oil routing (scavenge pump->cooler->spintric->tank) gives me enough cooling for higher loads.
    Hey Rob- I'm sure you noticed but just making sure. Make sure you secure the cables near the DS belt. They tend to move around and the motor moves a bit. You don't want them close to the belts and start rubbing.
    Thanks- Chad
    818R-SOLD!!!- Go Karted 7/20/14/ Officially raced NASA ST2- 2/28/15
    2016 Elan NP01 Prototype Racecar Chassis #20
    1969 Porsche 911ST Vintage Race Car
    1972 Porsche 911T (#'s matching undergoing nut & bolt resto in my garage)

  40. #120
    Thanks Chad. I had a bunch of clearance, but will check again. I appreciate the help. Rob

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