Rob T's 818R Build Thread

[Rob T]

The Cobb unit is plugged into the OBDII port at it is reading voltages, throttle position, etc. I assumed that means the ECU is powered. Is that an accurate assumption?

[STiPWRD]

Yes, that's correct. Since the ECU is functioning but the engine still won't start then it's getting a reading from a sensor it doesn't like and will not create spark (or you don't have any compression). If the timing belt did skip, it could have bent a valve and you would have lost compression - you could try doing a compression test. On the other hand, if the ECU is picking up a bad signal, it may prevent the engine from starting. Try looking at the OBD telemetry to see if anything looks out of place. For instance, if your engine coolant temp sensor is malfunctioning, the ECU will not let the engine fire (this happened to me, which I found out was a break in the wiring). Try verifying some of the other sensors are working properly (crank pos, cam pos, etc...).

[Rob T]

Thanks...

[Rob T]

Update on the engine not running....just to catch everyone up....I started the car on the trailer with the wheels blocked with 2X4's. Thought the car was in neutral and let out the clutch. Car was not in neutral, but not at high revs. Car killed. Would not re-startstart. Took the car in Saturday as I am not a motor guy yet and I wanted to get it diagnosed. Timing belt skipped 4 teeth and at least there is some damage as there is 80% leak down on two cylinders. Until the autopsy, we will not know if there is damage to the pistons or anything else yet, but there is at least some valve damage. Bad news. As the tear down continues, I will provide updates. When Chad built the car, he put on a new Gates racing timing belt, etc. This seems crazy that this could happen, but it did. More to come....

[Hindsight]

Oh man, sorry that happened! Hope the damage is minimal.

[Zach34]

Ugh, that's a bummer.

Is this a common thing with these engines? I know I've done the pop-the-clutch-thinking-it-was-in-neutral on my daily driver a bunch of times. I figure a lot of people have. Bob mentioned some sort of anti-jump guard. Any way to check if those are not there, or something?

[Frank818]

Oh no, what a bad news. I hope everything gets fixed without too much trouble.

[Rob T]

Thanks. I've stalled it before, too, with no issues. The only difference this time was I had the wheels chocked with a 2X4 both behind and in front of the driver's side rear tire. Another possibility, now that the car was in gear and I didn't know it, was that I trailered it to the track in gear. I use good tie downs and the straps are tight so the car does not move, much. As for what really happened, hopefully, more will become evident as the autopsy proceeds.....

[C.Plavan]

Like we discussed, you (we) get to see if the AJW block has everything in it that I was promised and paid for. Still sucks though. Maybe it did run backwards for a sec.

Double check all this is in there. This is what I paid for.

AJW Special 2.5L
2013 STI Shortblock
Balanced/Printed
JE Forged Pistons
STI Nitrated Crank
OEM Bearings
ARP Headbolts
Gates Timing Belt Kit
STI Heads (Single AUCS)
Port/Polish
Upgraded 272 Cams
OEM Head gaskets
Torque Solutions Air Pump Delete
Cobb V3 Accessport
Cobb SF Short Ram intake

[FFRSpec72]

Thanks. I've stalled it before, too, with no issues. The only difference this time was I had the wheels chocked with a 2X4 both behind and in front of the driver's side rear tire. Another possibility, now that the car was in gear and I didn't know it, was that I trailered it to the track in gear. I use good tie downs and the straps are tight so the car does not move, much. As for what really happened, hopefully, more will become evident as the autopsy proceeds.....

Anything happen to any of the idler pulleys or the timing belt guide ?

[C.Plavan]

Anything happen to any of the idler pulleys or the timing belt guide ?

Everything was new as of last January. I'm curious also. I replaced all pulleys, tensioner, and belt after finding that AJW gave me a used/rusted water pump and what looked like a used timing belt. This is when I installed the new 10mm oil pump that fixed the oil overheating problem.

[Rob T]

Thanks, Chad. When I know the answers I will share them. I am sure nobody wants this to happen to them. Rob

[Rob T]

OK...Here is an update with Pictures. Bad News. As a quick reminder. Three weeks prior to the incident, I drained the oil from the separator tank (dry sump) using the plug on the bottom of the tank and added about 5 quarts of Mobil 1 15W 50. I did not change the filter or disconnect any other hoses. I started the car and ran it for 10 minutes or so to warm things up. Pressure came up immediately. Ran the full range of RPM's, in neutral, with the clutch out, sitting in the drive way. Put the car on the trailer. The day of the incident, I trailered the car for 1:15 at about 34F. I started the car on the trailer -clutch in. At about 10 seconds, I let out the clutch thinking the car was in neutral. It wasn't. In addition, the back driver's side wheel was chocked front and back with 2X4's. The car killed. I think I heard a bang. Tried to restart the car and it was lopey - it sounded different and would not run.

I didn't have the time, equipment or skill to pull the motor (yet), so took it to the shop. Here is what he said.

[I][I]It was not a best case scenario for your motor. Something caused the right intake camshaft to seize. It snapped off the drive pin on the cam in the cam gear. So basically, the crank was spinning 3 of the 4 camshafts. There are bent valves in 2 cylinders as expected based on the leakdown test. The issue is determining what caused the cam to seize and if the damage to the head casting and the cam are repairable now.


From the looks of the other cam journals, it looks like there was foreign object contamination/oil starvation present. If that was bad enough to make something as lightly loaded as a camshaft to seize then I have some serious concerns about the condition of the rod and main bearings in the shortblock. I'm going to have my machinist evaluate the heads and cams but I would think it prudent to at least split the case halves and check the condition of the main and rod bearings and service as needed.

I know that when the car started its last time the oil pressure came up...I also know that I spent many minutes cranking the engine (not all at once) hoping it would run. Also, I'd see the oil pressure come up when the engine was cranking.

So this is a bit of a mystery. I need some suggestions about what might have gone wrong so it doesn't happen again. Here is what is happening next. Keep in mind that this motor has many hours on it. I have run 12+ 20 minute sessions myself, not to mention whatever Chad had done.

1) cutting the filter to look for any foreign materials.
2) Looking at the bottom end for any clues.
3) Looking at the other cam shafts.

We just can't figure out what caused the cam to seize and then cause the damage to the journal. If I dead stopped the crank by letting out the clutch on a chocked car, could the cams, or this cam have kept rotating and broken the pin?

I am looking to this experienced group for some insight. The engine builder(builds serious race motors in LA) has only seen this kind of damage from a total oil failure OR when the bearing caps are not aligned/torqued properly - which usually results in early engine seizure. This is a mystery.

Here are the pics.....

[Rob T]

IMG_20170116_134653830-small2.jpgIMG_20170116_134707054-small.jpgIMG_20170116_134714314-small.jpgIMG_20170116_134724390-small.jpgIMG_20170116_134733119_TOP-small.jpg

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Rob,
This doesn't sound or look good.

Were the belt guards in place? See post 31 in this thread.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post260746

I wonder if the cam damage happened when the pistons hit the valves.
Maybe one of the Subaru motor experts will jump on here.
Bob

[Zach34]

So, if I follow, popping the clutch with the wheels chocked stopped the engine violently enough to cause the timing belt to skip on one of the cam shafts (probably on whichever cylinder happened to be firing) which caused the valves to impact the piston, bending the valves, binding the cam, and snapping the pin on the cam drive gear. Is that what we're concluding?

You said there was evidence of oil starvation/FOD on the OTHER cam journals, too? Before we go gathering our pitchforks, remember that Chad had several track sessions where the oil temperature spiked while he was troubleshooting the DS. We also now know, since he later found out and shared with us, the oil was probably aerated and foamy during these temperature spikes. That's probably the most likely source of the galling. Chad knows what he's doing and I'm certain he was lifting and shutting it down to avoid any damage as best he could, but sometimes you just don't know until the autopsy.

[Rob T]

I have no way of knowing whether or not there was previous damage from before. I do know that I drove a 13 session autocross day and 4 half day open track sessions with no obvious issues. The galling could have happened before or right during failure. There is no way to know.

Chad and I have been talking through this whole thing and are friends. He has been a great help to me. I am interested in figuring out what exactly caused the issue to make sure whatever it was, if it is more than me dropping the clutch on a chocked wheel, is fixed so that I do not kill another motor. The autopsy is not done yet. I have shared what I know so far.

I am grateful for any help or suggestions. Rob

[Scargo]

Who tore down the engine? Did they find it difficult to remove the cam pulley bolts? It takes two people, cheater bars etc. to tighten~untighten them. I just tore down a "built" motor where I found bolts under-tightened, over-tightened and a lack of Loctite having being used. Timing belt guides were gapped way too wide. An idler pulley was loose...

When I got to the cam pulley bolts they were not a be-atch, like they should have been. We fairly easily broke them loose! If you combine under-torquing and that violent crank/clutch seizure it could have caused the locating pin to snap. The other wear and galling is probably unrelated.

Before I bought the right tools and knew what I was doing I listened to an idiot suggesting that you could use vice-grips on the cam and hold the cam while you tightened the cam pulley bolt. I did that on my first motor build. When I tore it down I found two of the pins sheared. However, the pulleys did not spin.

I not accusing anyone of doing anything wrong; just a thought. I just finished helping a buddy build a Subie XT motor and I brought him a DAVCS gasket set I had. We were not too much further along in the build when the head gaskets became a question when the cam seals were not correct for his motor. We had to pull the heads and put the right gaskets on it. My dumb assumption. They were missing one little hole.
Also, when you go back together use these Turn-in Concepts FU bolts! Link and image is of non-AVCS bolts. Others, for AVCS have holes in them. Available from a few sources.
1001-03-0032.jpg

[C.Plavan]

Yeah- this is a head scratcher.
1. Only one cam shows galling, all the others are fine (Edit- waiting on confirmation)
2. I would like to see the pistons on that side
3. I remember AJW saying there was an issue with the used heads prior, but that they fixed it- wondering if that was it and it's unrelated- remember the used, rusty water pump they installed.
4. The shop that has the motor is the place I wish I knew about when building the motor. They are top notch and run very fast time attack WRX's

So let's see what Yimisport finds in there. My gut tells me AJW just tried polishing the galling, and it is unrelated to the cam pin break since other journals are fine.

[Scargo]

Yeah- this is a head scratcher.
1. Only one cam shows galling, all the others are fine (Edit- waiting on confirmation) ... My gut tells me AJW just tried polishing the galling, and it is unrelated to the cam pin break since other journals are fine.

Another item sometimes overlooked is the fine screen basket inside the banjo bolts. If they are clogged or get clogged the you are screwed for oiling of the cams. Some take them out entirely. If they exist then they should be examined for fouling. They and their cleaning could have been easily missed.

[Rob T]

It's been a long time....but time for an update. First the good news. I heard the car running doing a break-in on the dyno yesterday. YimiSport has had the car and has been rebuilding the engine. (I'm too busy with my current job to take this on). There was some significant scoring in the engine and some loose metal, but the bearings never spun. Best theory at this point is that a piece of metal got loose and jammed one of the intake cams right after I started the car. It basically twisted off the cam pulley and allowed interference, and the engine to be completely out of time. We'll never know exactly. There was also some scoring on the crank. So....the engine is basically new: cams, bearings, crank, pistons, valves, heads. We kept the crankcase and the connecting rods. New oil cooler core, flushed lines, rebuilt dry sump pump, and eliminated the two front oil coolers (never got oil to temp even at 104 ambient). Engine is being broken in on the dyno and then tuned. I have asked for two tunes - about a 280hp as Chad had it, and a 325 - 350 (safe, for when I get better). Hopefully tuned next week and I can pick it up. Hearing the car made me realize how much I've missed being out there on the track. When I get it home, I'll need to go through the whole thing, bleed the brakes and get ready to drive.

[longislandwrx]

Glad you are back at it.

In the long run you dealt with the inevitable sooner rather than later. I'm surprised this engine lasted as long as it did. Have fun out there.


If the coolers are salvageable let me know if you decide to sell.

[Rob T]

I'm closer now....I'm going to leave the coolers in for a bit. I know they add weight, but with the three tunes, if and when I get to the higher HP, I may need some additional cooler. I spoke to Paul (the tuner) at Yimisport yesterday. He said the engine is running strong and making better power than before. He said that he did several 60% dyno pulls during engine break-in and that cooling looks really good. Water temps were 190-200 and oil temp was great with just the back cooler and no airflow other than the fan. I am hoping to pick it up Saturday after he gets the tunes done. Hopefully a track day in September.

[Mitch Wright]

Great news Rob, it sounds it going to be a great runner.

[Rob T]

Paul at Yimisport completed the tunes yesterday. Three different versions. A 17psi, a 19.5psi and a 22psi. He tuned them for 91 octane, but recommends a little 100 octane if I run the top two at the track. I am picking up the car Saturday. I can't wait. There was an issue with a steady tach reading, so there are two graphs. One has mph on the x axis (4th gear) and the other has rpm, like normal to show the torque. I am going to start on the 17psi tune and really learn this car first....Rob T P818 RPM.jpgRob T P818 All.jpg

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hey Rob
Great to hear your getting the car back.
Your dyno curves are much different than Chad's.
I believe Chad had a very flat HP curve so he could run in a particular class.
Here is a copy of that chart so you can overlay yours.
Bob

MGz87Tsl.jpg

[Rob T]

Bob: Thanks. You are correct. Chad was programmed to maximize for ST2. As of right now, I do not have any plans to run in a particular class. Just run and get better with the car. I have a lot to learn and will do open track days to improve my skills while learning the car. The plan is to stay at the lower power level for a while. It was simple to add the other, higher power tunes, while the car was at Yimisport.

[Mitch Wright]

Rob it looks to me like you will be having some fun, the engine looks strong. I am doing the same thing limiting my boost to 18psi, the car is still fast.

[Frank818]

You've got a lot more power sooner in the power band, compared to what Chad had.

[DanielsDM]

Dyno #'s look good Rob. Should be fast. You would have to detune to stay in ST2 or TT2 if you go there eventually.
BTW, Nasa has changed the way they calculate HP for ST + PT classes since the car was built. Now they take the average HP over a 2000 rpm range instead of the peak number. Reduces the benefit of having a tune like Chad did.

[Rob T]

Frank: I looked at the charts and had not compared the rpm ranges where the torque comes up. You are right....peak torque comes on about 1000rpm sooner. This is good. I will also being limiting the revs on the top end. May mean shifting a little more, but better in the long run....I guess it will depend on the track.

[Mitch Wright]

Rob you might also be shifting less, with a fat torque curve may allow you to run a gear up compared to your original engine.

[longislandwrx]

Rob it looks to me like you will be having some fun, the engine looks strong. I am doing the same thing limiting my boost to 18psi, the car is still fast.

you guys are funny. I run 16psi in my DD wrx and it's a fast car. 18psi in an 818 is going to rip.

[Frank818]

18psi in an 818 is going to rip.

Now you tell us? loll

[Rob T]

Picked up my car today. Sounds awesome. Next track day planned for October 6. Need to go through everything and bleed the brakes. Also need to reinstall the bottom pan. I can't wait to get back out.

[C.Plavan]

Picked up my car today. Sounds awesome. Next track day planned for October 6. Need to go through everything and bleed the brakes. Also need to reinstall the bottom pan. I can't wait to get back out.

It would be a great idea to do a complete nut/bolt check on everything. You don't know what they touched or did not touch the 8 months they had it. I don't know if they will remember what they touched. Pay special attention to the Drysump parts and engine related items.

Other than that- have fun!

[Rob T]

Good Advice. It's run a couple hours on the dyno, but I already found some loose trim bolts. I'll be going through it tomorrow.

[Rob T]

A few developments.....First track day is Friday on the new motor. I am pretty excited to get back out. I have been through the car a few times to double check everything. Second, Sgt. Gator stopped by on his way back to Oregon after picking up Brando's car in LA. For a short time, we had two R's within 100ft of each other, both on trailers. It was great to meet Sgt. Gator in person and put a face with a name.

[RetroRacing]

Please keep us informed! Retro and Dragonfly are both planning to be at the enduro in Portland on the 14th IF I can get an engine that works! Gator is on our pit crew! Can't wait to see his new toy.

[Sgt.Gator]

It was great meeting you Rob! Good luck with the new engine, rock the track!