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Sorry... No way.
I think there is a lot of performance potential with electric. Either fuel cell, like Gollum describes, or if someone eventually creates a suitable lightweight, economical, environmentally friendly battery. OR both. There is room for cars built to be electric, but the power source, battery, fuel cell, ICE running a generator, some combination of these) varies based on vehicle target use.
Imagine an electric car, with individual motors for each wheel. Now you can use software to program in 'limited slip' or off-road 4x4 or something like the Honda SH stuff they did, where when cornering, the outside wheel was spun faster than the inside, to the point where less steering was required to maintain the cornering angle. All of these in the same vehicle.
Think of the stability control possibilites. The ability to program in how much to control things would be endless. You could have granny mode and hooligan mode and everything in between.
Today our motors are much the same inside as they were 75 years ago, its just that now computers control fuel delivery, spark timing, even cam profiles. What a difference that has made. I imagine a similar revolution once computers are easily able to completely control the power delivered individually to each wheel.
Originally Posted by bromikl
Good video.Uploaded by tsport100 on Jan 25, 2009
I saw this video a couple of years ago, thanks for posting it. I forgot all about it until they switched out the lead acid batteries, then I remembered it.
my apologies i misread your post and i was under the impression that (combustion) was what you meant, the idea behind hydrogen combustion (as you are already aware i imagine) big picture is the theoretical "hydrogen economy", personally though i like it because the internal combustion engine (as horribly inefficient as it is) already has the infrastructure necessary (finding a mechanic or parts for alternative engines currently is a challenge) and you don't need clean hydrogen, for environmentalists burning hydrogen produces alot of energy with very few by-products and greenhouse gases, trouble is currently we refine it primarily from fossil fuels if i am not mistaken... that is besides the point, internal combustion is too inefficient with roughly 20-30% of fuel energy is converted to useable power the rest of the fuel is a waste though i imagine hydrogen in this application would be even less efficient, so yes your right fuel cells (unless something better comes along) and electric cars are the future...
speaking of fuel cells i love the technology but it may be as far away as the battery technology we need for the electric cars, i know the actual cell that does the converting has a limited useful life and must be replaced periodically though i don't know the MTBF... it is still at its base level an anode cathode reaction and oxidization would occur over time... running the purest possible hydrogen with as near to zero contaminants as possible would make the engine last much longer... but getting hydrogen that clean would be expensive. For a unit big enough for cars the membrane is currently very expensive (6 figures minimum last i saw but that was a while ago). if i had the money though... making a factory 5 fuel cell car would be very cool indeed...
maybe a Stirling or hot bulb style engine? that might be a fun one to try......ICE running a generator...
interestingly fuel cells have been around since the 60's, electric cars since the mid 1800's (will be 2 centuries in 10 years!!!!) and hybrid cars in the early 1900's... have we really come that far?Today our motors are much the same inside as they were 75 years ago
it is now late and i am out of beer...
EDIT...
http://gas2.org/2008/12/05/revolutio...-inside-wheel/
with small cheap components inside the wheels that looks promising... cruising on the freeway you could cycle only 2 of these to pass the wind resistance to maximize range since the thing is so damn light i imagine... or run all four at 100%+ output levels for fast (10.6 0-60 is not really that fast) accelerations... weight is a huge factor as well as the drive shafts and everything (except the wheels themselves) that have a rotational inertia..
Last edited by Ks2; 06-16-2011 at 02:44 AM. Reason: i didnt even realize this thread had two pages... havnt had enough beer yet i guess
Ks2, no need to apologize really, I wasn't offended or anything. Just needed to clarify myself obviously as you showed me.
I do realize the problems facing hydrogen, but really it's the same problem facing humanity. As much as I think the "oil crisis" is just a governmental red herring, I do believe we need to find an energy source that just makes more sense than the oil process. In my humble opinion, the future is in Wave an Solar technology. But that's just my opinion. If you want to know why, I say that because if we could just capture a fraction of a percent of the energy beating on our coasts we'd be well set. And solar panels seem to be improving on a constant basis so they can't be ignored. The sun is a giant ball of energy. To dismiss it as a serious contender for our energy would be foolhardy.
The big reason I think this subject DOES apply to us car-folk here, is that electric motors are just plain BOMB! As much as I love a good loud engine (was just at the Sonoma Historics at Infeneon a few weekends ago) the instant torque of an electric motor is very appealing. Electric motors are already at an efficiency that reciprocating motors will NEVER reach. They provide nearly perfect efficiency across a HUGE operating range, and the BEST of all, is that even a 500+hp electric motor can still propel a car down the highway with nearly the same efficiency as a 50hp electric motor. They're absurdly scalable and when you consider the benefit of removing the transmission from the complexity of the drivetrain.... It's just a plain good motor option.
[QUOTE=CdnCobraGuy;20790]
Price target is in the same range as you would expect to pay for a good old fashioned internal combustion drive line. Power and range are targeted to be what one would expect from a car with the looks of any of the FFR offerings.
QUOTE]
Question: Is this price (similar to internal combustion) not including the battery? If so, that sounds realistic. The battery would cost maybe another $12,000. The total cost would definately be higher than a typical ICE setup, but with such an blooming interest in EVs and battery technology gradually getting better and cheaper, I think that there would definately be a good market for such a product.
i see benefits more of wind then solar and wave (but then again i live in the midwest) hydrogen gas as a fuel is the best choice in the short term, we don't have to risk miners to dig it up or soldiers to fight over it, i believe internal combustion will be around for a long while (since every other technological option is decades away) it is just making internal combustion less wasteful while still retaining the qualities that have made it iconic...
however i agree electric motors are a blast and if we had a sufficient method of powering them they would be the future, the squirrel cage induction motor in particular is by far one of the most versatile in the industry since it can switch from motor to generator regardless of it's direction of rotation nearly instantly, and they make these motors capable of surviving just about anything since they are completely sealed in the casing, perfect for automotive use.. the controls for AC motors have come a long way.
but i have always been intrigued by DC shunt motors, you can 'reverse plug' the motor by effectively shorting the field current, the motors speed increases exponentially since the field current is near zero. adapting this you can for extremely short bursts have a 5 hp motor delivering speed and power equivalent to 3-400hp gasoline motor on methanol just by altering the field resistance (granted the motors speed is nearly uncontrollable and it's speed will at some point cause it to fail catastrophically... but that is what drag racing is about)
Yes!!! I am def interested!!! I was planning on trying it myself. But, if there is a plug and play I would be very interested. Like most in the Midwest my commute would require a range in the 75 mile round trip range. I personally think that carrying enough batteries for acceleration and having a small generator that keeps the charge up and allows highway driving is the best option. I know more engineering. I am very impressed that someone wants to electrify the 818.
BUMP! Any progress when it comes to this motor? I'd love to have a green licence plate! What company will provide these kits?
I would not be interested in an EV kit for any vehicle in the near future. Overall range and re-fueling (or re-charging) needs to be simple and fast. Waiting for batteries to charge would make long distance trips impossible, or even trips to nearby cities.
There is also something wonderfully gratifying about being able to shift and work within an engines power band that captivates me. With an EV, there is no shifting and that would make my experience with it very dull.
ZeroDrift, Electric isn't for everyone. But if you commute less than 30 miles a day or so (that's 80% of the country), and you could rent or borrow a ICE vehicle twice a year for longer trips, then electric would do you just fine. Yes, batteries are more expensive, but electric power is cheaper then gas. For performance, we're NOT talking about a golf cart with a 20 MPH top speed. Electrics could easily have quicker acceleration and higher top speed than gas. At this point, few cars exist that were designed to be electric. You wouldn't compare a Model T to a Porsche Boxter - we have only begun to develop the possibilities of electric.
You can still shift if you set it up that way. Most electric motors have a massive power band, so there's really no need for it. But several home built EV conversions use a DC motor from a forklift. You get maximum torque at zero RPM and decreasing as you get into the thousands. In this case they often leave the manual transmission in the donor vehicle.
You're absolutely right about EV not sounding like gas, and it wouldn't reek of fossil fuels, but you could always use 96 octane aftershave and put a speaker under the hood to go VROOM VROOM for you.
Bromikl, I respect where you are coming from, but I think you misunderstand. Electric is ideal for commuting, but this kit car isn't exactly a commuter. Personally, should I decide to buy one, I'd like to enjoy day trips and take it to the track occasionally. Electric is not capable of this for the time being, due to the shortcomings of batteries. If you toss in a highly efficient generator that recharges the batteries, you'd peak my interest, but until then, a pure EV is just not cut out for a sports car. Now please don't misunderstand, I know full well the advantages that electric motors are capable of compared to combustion, but the shortcomings of re-charging are just too inconvenient for now.
As far as comparisons, EV has more potential for quicker acceleration; however top speed is restricted to the same laws of physics that a combustion engine is. Statements of top speed are vague at best.
Right. An electric racing a gas wouldn't be a fair fight; unless it's a short sprint.
Interest in EV's brought me to FFR just before they announced the 818. I've been here since.
Zero / Brom... It looks like both of you are looking for a light, quick handling car that you can modify to suit your own needs. I'm enthused about this car and how it develops for the same reason. I know that one car can't be all things for all people. That's why I'm interested in this one. If I have to put the engine/motor in myself, I can choose what I want. The basic car is engineered with a great suspension, brakes, (I'm really hoping that it has a roof) and I can modify it the way that I want it...
The 818 is indeed ideal to alter as you have a potentially great foundation to start with, not to mention its a kit that you build. I already a pair of Impreza models in my household and would be planning to put my current engine in the 818, assuming I like the design of the final model. The roof topic will immediately decide if I pass on the car though (no roof means I won't buy it).
On the EV side of things I would be very keen to follow some build threads on the matter. Reading and watching someone build either an EV (or gas) kit car would be most interesting !
You know what, I've changed my mind and I'd be delighted to see an electric drivetrain available and would consider it.
AC, DC doesn't matter as long as it is well done, well priced and fast as hell.
Obviously the engine, controllers and battery pack should be well suited to each other and performance goals.
New here but I have been following Factory Five for a long time. Reason I'm chimming in on this thread is I work in the electric vehicle field and would be happy to shed some light on some of the issues that have been brought up. I don't want to come on and list all the cars, motorcycles ect that I have a hand in since listing them off will show who I work for unless it is ok.
Hate when people just spam a thread trying get business.
I will list the specs of one of the motorcyles I have been working on and you can judge if the power output is anywhere near where you would want your 818.
240 HP at the rear wheel (this motor and controller setup is pretty exspensive right now but we have been told that in volume the price for a single could go down below $6k or so)
Batteries 12kwh (fyi kw is a measure of power, kwh is a measure of capcity) with a weight of ~180 #. We have an electric Fiero that with 24kwh can cover a good 75-95 miles at freeway speeds. I'm not talking driving at 50 we cruise it at 65-70 with anything but ideal rubber on it. Batteries really are where your major funds are going to go. Big thing is to define what is your list of priorities. (Power, density, price and pick 2) If you tell me you want 300+hp and it to do 300+ miles and charge in 5 mins you better not say money is an issue. If on the other hand your happy with a car that will flat out stuff you back in the seat when you want to but still get you 75-100 miles, no problem.
The bike has topped out over 190mph and should be good for 215 or so.
Love seeing the great builds that people have done with the Factory Five cars and look forward to seeing these 818 when they are out.
Have a great day all,
FYI: I went to the Ann Arbor Rolling Sculpture Auto Show last Friday evening and spoke with a guy named Keith who has converted an X 1/9 to electric drive.
He gave me a couple of business cards including one with a link to this:
http://sites.google.com/site/michiganelectricautos/
He said it only cost him $2.00-$3.00 a day to drive to work (I recall it being a good hike too). I asked if his conversion cost around $7,000, he said yes but it could be less for others.
I told him if I ever blew up the engine in my 1977 911 I would go electric. He said using an old 911 body is a popular choice. I also told him about my friend John with a 1973 911T with a seized engine and that I would be contacting him with additional information.
Now the X 1/9.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...cpZZ2QQtppZZ20
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...cpZZ3QQtppZZ20
Keith is braking systems engineer and joked if we all went electric that he would still have a future because he installed regenerative braking on this vehicle and knows something about it.
George; Architect, Artist and Designer of Objects
1977 Porsche 911 Targa, 2.7L CIS Silver/Black, owned since 2003
1998 Chevy S-10 Pick-Up Truck 4x4 4.3L V6 Black with front and rear spoilers
1989 Scat II HP hovercraft with Cuyuna two stroke ULII-02, 35 hp with experimental skirt and sound control
A few more images:
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...cpZZ8QQtppZZ20
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...cpZZ9QQtppZZ20
EDIT: Most electric cars are DC, this one is AC.
Last edited by kach22i; 07-10-2011 at 09:58 AM.
George; Architect, Artist and Designer of Objects
1977 Porsche 911 Targa, 2.7L CIS Silver/Black, owned since 2003
1998 Chevy S-10 Pick-Up Truck 4x4 4.3L V6 Black with front and rear spoilers
1989 Scat II HP hovercraft with Cuyuna two stroke ULII-02, 35 hp with experimental skirt and sound control
nice clean instalation......what i find interesting about this thread is that on both forums with the same threads in every catagory, we have not heard once back from the poster............Steven
FFR Daytona Type 65 Coupe
67 427 Cobra
57' Belair
72 Pinto Wagon ,306" 1/4 miler
34 5 window coupe Ford
2003 Mustang GT
99' ZX9
85 Goldwing
All toys still in the Scuderia!
Every Saint has a past..................every sinner a future
Don't take yourself so seriously........no one else does.
You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrists office.
http://youtu.be/jWSgZc8cP8w lots of fun information here. great series with real world builds, problems, resolutions. enjoy!
evtv.me is building a cobra replica for another vendor, but for a FFR it would be great! starting at 0:50:20
I went to an electric car club meeting last Saturday for about 2-1/2 hours (missed the 2,000 person autoshow couple of weeks ago). It was a small meet up, sort of a round table discussion which I found very enjoyable. For example; a couple who owns a Chevy Volt was there, so we got to hear some interesting aspects and stories. GM is very big on collecting data, and the owners get text messages form their car, maybe too many from the sounds of it.
After the meeting in the library parking lot I got to see Keith's red Fiat X-1/9 again, two Volts, an 1989 electric Ranger pick up truck - rust free and low miles. This part was fun too, really looking and going over the cars/trucks with the owners.
If you are in Michigan, take advantage of the organization.
Michigan Electric Auto Association
http://sites.google.com/site/michiganelectricautos/
Here is a car I found in a link off the site, might be of special interest here.
ElectroLite Roadster
“EL-R”
http://www.evalbum.com/1479
1479b.jpg
Yep, based on a RCR Superlite kit car...........10k, 20k and 40-50k packages depending on model. Looks to be competition for the 818 in some respects. However, I expect the 818 to be the value supreme king.
Last edited by kach22i; 07-25-2011 at 03:28 PM.
George; Architect, Artist and Designer of Objects
1977 Porsche 911 Targa, 2.7L CIS Silver/Black, owned since 2003
1998 Chevy S-10 Pick-Up Truck 4x4 4.3L V6 Black with front and rear spoilers
1989 Scat II HP hovercraft with Cuyuna two stroke ULII-02, 35 hp with experimental skirt and sound control
^ i was actually in RCR's shop about 6 weeks ago when i was down by Detroit for work. I got to sit in the new "SL-Razor", the "SL-Nemesis", as well as the "SL-Coupe" very cool shop and they were very friendly and nice about showing me around.
I'm pretty sure they had the electric SLR sitting on the lift while i was there too.
It was all a pretty sweet experience as i have been following RCR since i first heard about the SLR a few years ago. If your in the Detroit area, i would say it is certainly worth a visit, Fran was a very nice guy.
Sadly the price point on the SLR and Nemesis is still a little steeper than what i would like to see, which is why I'm so excited about the 818.
I also wouldn't be shocked if you could find more info about the electrolite over at exocars.net
Last edited by StatGSR; 07-25-2011 at 04:10 PM.
05 Outback XT - DD
94 Integra GSR - Track Car
97 Legacy Brighton - EG33 Swap Project
03 Silverado 2500HD Duramax - Tow Rig
97 Integra GS - Future Track Car
Ann Arbor to Clinton Township is a pretty good cruise. It takes family (wife's side) or special event to get me out that way. If they post an "open house" I'll have to consider it.
George; Architect, Artist and Designer of Objects
1977 Porsche 911 Targa, 2.7L CIS Silver/Black, owned since 2003
1998 Chevy S-10 Pick-Up Truck 4x4 4.3L V6 Black with front and rear spoilers
1989 Scat II HP hovercraft with Cuyuna two stroke ULII-02, 35 hp with experimental skirt and sound control
i'm interested FFR 818. but what the cost?
It's interesting that this thread got pulled out of the hole. I think that 818 just begs to be electrified. Unfortunately right now, the costs of all of the electrical components would exceed the cost of a new, complete Nissan Leaf. Maybe this will be a great EV one day when batteries have gotten a bit cheaper and have a higher energy density.
I would def. have some interest.
The question is would it be indipendant eDrive hubs or would it be a bolt up system to say the subaru running gear?
I think the main concern of course is cost.
I am still interested. Not just battery also solar, hydrogen, wind and regen braking to recharge the battery packs
You're not going to get much energy from solar or wind. (Solar is cost prohibitive for the tiny amount of power generated.) Wind is for homes. Pushing a turbine through the air will never recover the energy lost to drag. Hydrogen fuel cells are ungodly expensive, high maintenance items. They do generate electricity, but not enough to drive in traffic. Regen works, but it only increases efficiency - doesn't generate power. You should plan on charging your batteries from the grid each night.
You can get away with fewer batteries if you have an onboard diesel generator (constant speed, highly efficient), and charge as you drive (called series hybrid.)
Someone else mentioned a through-the-road hybrid. (Gas engine moves the car, front wheels regenerative-brake while driving to charge the batteries.) Allows you to shut off the gas engine sometimes. I haven't investigated that; not sure how it would work. On first glance, it seems to be a very complicated waste of energy. And it could also make driving very dangerous.
I don't think that any of the currently feasible batteries can take a charge fast enough for regenerative braking to be anything more than a bogus fantasy. You would have to banks of capacitors to really do anything with that idea.
Somebody smarter than me is gonna have to make that call. I once tried to calculate the amount of kinetic energy converted to heat when stopping a car, and tried to relate that to a capacitor size. I got lost in the units and never came to a conclusive answer.
This through the road hybrid design is how the West Philly car works to get up to 160 mpg with pretty good performance.
I think this is a smart idea, especially considering the $2-$5k investment for a WRX. If someone had an 818 kit that included everything else that was needed to build the 818 as an electric for $7-$8k I think it would sell well. When you consider production electric vehicles being in the $30k+ range for something like the Leaf or the Focus Electric $18k looks pretty good.
Obviously this would fit well into the "green" model, but I assume we're 2-3 years away from seeing that, as I am imagining that that will be last of the three models completed.
Even putting this into the performance car would be pretty sweet. If we could get 50-60 miles of range at highway speeds and a top speed above 100 it would hit the spot (maybe a 0-60 in the mid 5 seconds)? Maybe I'm just crazy, but I could see myself building a second 818 as an electric.
1997 Jeep XJ (Cherokee) : Apocalypse Vehicle, 4.5" lift, ARB locker, 34" tires
1983 Lotus Turbo Esprit : Mid-engined, turbocharged 4 cylinder... remind you of anything?
Current hybrids absorb about an average of 20% of the kinetic energy in braking to recharge the batteries. The other 80% is lost to heat through the conventional friction brakes and a little bit through the electrical components. The biggest limitation to how much deceleration power can be absorbed to recharge the batteries in regenerative braking is the size of the battery. The standard Prius battery, for example, is only around 2 kw*hr, with a rated output of 21 kw. An EV will have a much large battery than a hybrid and therefore be able to absorb much more regenerative braking. The Leaf, for example has a 24 kw*hr battery pack, rated at 80 kw output. It stands to reason, that it can absorb 4 times as much regenerative braking power as a Prius battery, which would probably work out to be most of the braking energy in daily driving. If you're building a race car, though, you're probably best off recapturing that energy with a different system like a flywheel KERS.
I would like to see the sources for your information. I do not think that batteries can be charged at too high a rate or their life span is seriously degraded. The EV companies' PR departments will make all kinds of CLAIMS but that doesn't equate to the real world.
I don't really know of any advertized manufacturer specs for regenerative braking wattage. What I stated was just standard storage capacity specs, and used those to make some educated guesses. Here's another way to look at it: See how fast a charger station can put energy into a battery. The Ford Focus EV, like the Leaf, will have a 24 kw*hr battery. Ford claims that their level 3 quick charger will bring the battery from depleted to full charge in less than 30 minutes. 19.2 kw*hr in 30 minutes comes to an average energy absorbtion rate of 38.4 kw, or 51.5 hp. You can decelerate a car fairly quickly at 51 hp.
http://www.gizmag.com/ford-home-focu...station/17601/
Thought I'd add some figures to this thread so you know what is currently possible on a reasonable budget. In a years time there would be more options of course. Maybe cheaper, lighter, more powerful batteries as well.
First up DC gives you loads more bang for buck at the moment, if you are wanting AC and 0-60 < 6 seconds forget it on sensible money.
Given that here's some numbers for two builds aiming for performance for value.
Build 1
Motor - Kostov 9" 220v (45kg) $1750
Controller - Soliton Junior (?kg) $1800
batteries - 80*100ah Calb (200kg) $5500 (heavy for ah, but good peak power, easy to put together)
= $9050
torque from motor - 0 to 4000 rpm - 105 ft lbs
peak battery input to motor 135 kW (180hp)
Difficult for me to give accurate range but would fall between 60-80 miles depending on speed/aero
Build 2
Motor - Kostov 11" 250v (81kg) $2500
Controller - Soliton 1 (?kg) $2800
batteries - 720 10ah headways (216kg) $8650 (excellent peak power, hard to put together)
= $13950
torque from motor - 0 to 3500 rpm - 210 ft lbs
peak battery input to motor 250 kW (335hp)
Range 90 to 120 miles.
0-60 times would depend on gearing and traction but I'd aim for 4.5 or better for build 2. Maybe in the 3's.
Now I could do a build 3 for $5k more and give 25% more power using different components. Definately in the 3's
And you could go nuts and spend around triple but you'd double to 500kw and actually weigh less than above. You'd need to be an expert to build it as well. But you'd be in the 2's.
The first three builds are possible by a DIYer.
Last edited by drgrieve; 11-17-2011 at 05:14 PM. Reason: Forgot to covert nm to ft pound for 11" option
At 10k for the kit, 1k for a non turbo Impreza, and 14k for the electric stuff. After selling the donor parts, the total investment should be in the low 20's. I would be in with both feet, and I am a die hard fossil burner type guy.
Government tax credits anyone?
What about retrofitting using a crashed Insite or Other hybrid, they have been out for nearly 10 years now.
Last edited by Kalstar; 11-17-2011 at 08:04 AM.
Thanks, drgrieve. It's good to have an expert on this thread. I was wondering if you have an EV dyno to show us; as I know ICE HP /= EV HP. Though 180 HP is enough to burn rubber all day long, to get equivalent 1/4 mile times from an ICE, you'd need closer to (my guess) 220 Hp. Is that right?
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