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Thread: Front LCA Ball Joints holding up well

  1. #1
    Senior Member Buzz Skyline's Avatar
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    Front LCA Ball Joints holding up well

    I have about 1000 miles on my 818 with the donor ball joints that came with the donor front lower control arms (LCAs). I replaced them with some Moog ball joints yesterday, and cut off the boots to inspect the old joints for wear. I'm happy to report that there is no visible sign of wear. Here's a picture with the boot and most of the grease removed.



    I swiveled the ball around and could not find any wear marks or any sign of looseness in the joint. I will cut one open to make certain the cup is in good shape too, but based on how smooth and tight it is, I don't expect any surprises.

    Considering the critical role theses joints play in holding up the car, I plan to replace them annually. I will post the status of the joints again when I swap in a new set in a year.
    Last edited by Buzz Skyline; 04-11-2016 at 10:48 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Nice initiative to let us know.

    You replaced your excellent condition OEM balls (I mean joints lol) with Moog's cuz you want to replace them annually? You didn't replace them cuz the OEM failed so I believe your reason is preventive only?

    This is the ball that you sit the spindle onto, right? And then bolt a pinch bolt at 37lbs.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

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    I must of missed it, but did your OEM ball joints fail?

  4. #4
    Senior Member Buzz Skyline's Avatar
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    Yep, those are the ones.

    It was preventative, primarily because I have no idea how old the donor joints are, and all ball joints wear out eventually. In the stock WRX application, they become noisy and steering gets bad. In the 818, the joints are constantly under tension (unlike the stock application) so I don't know what the symptoms of a failing LCA ball joint would be other than catastrophic separation.

    Moogs, I'm told, are better than OEM. So I figure I'll start with a good set, and find out how they hold up with a known amount and type of use.
    Last edited by Buzz Skyline; 04-11-2016 at 01:20 PM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Buzz Skyline's Avatar
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    Also, the donor ball joint boots were torn and leaking.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Buzz Skyline's Avatar
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    No, they didn't fail. The ball joints carry the full weight of the front end, so failure would mean the chassis will hit the ground. At anything besides a standstill, I assume that would effectively destroy the car. In other words, you can't wait for failure to replace these. You have to find a way to inspect them, or regularly and proactively replace them. The Moogs are $50 each, so if I'm going to take one out to inspect it, I figure I might as well replace it with a new one.

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    Senior Member Buzz Skyline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NevaLift2Shift View Post

    I must of missed it, but did your OEM ball joints fail?
    No, they didn't fail. The ball joints carry the full weight of the front end, so failure would mean the chassis will hit the ground. At anything besides a standstill, I assume that would effectively destroy the car. In other words, you can't wait for failure to replace these. You have to find a way to inspect them, or regularly and proactively replace them. The Moogs are $50 each, so if I'm going to take one out to inspect it, I figure I might as well replace it with a new one.

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    Senior Member wleehendrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Skyline View Post
    The Moogs are $50 each, so if I'm going to take one out to inspect it, I figure I might as well replace it with a new one.
    FYI, Amazon has the Moog ball joints <$30 each with Prime shipping. I put new Moogs on when I built the suspension, but it's good to see that the originals were holding up fine. I agree, with the 818's change from struts to wishbones, these joints go from compression to tension, which makes the failure mode much more dramatic, so periodic replacement is probably a good thing!

  9. #9
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    I remember reading a thread that explained the difference between OEM<s use of the joints and FFR's use (comp to tension). Was pretty alarming and I think no one found joints that work better under tension than Impreza-like's.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  10. #10
    Senior Member Buzz Skyline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    I remember reading a thread that explained the difference between OEM<s use of the joints and FFR's use (comp to tension). Was pretty alarming and I think no one found joints that work better under tension than Impreza-like's.
    I was also alarmed when I saw how the joints were being used in the 818. That's why I'm so glad to see how well the joints have held up for 1000 miles (plus an unknown amount of mileage on the donor before I tore it down). I still plan to pull them out to replace them annually and to check for wear. Especially now that wleehendrick clued me into the $30 Moogs on Amazon, I figure it will just be routine annual maintenance.

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    2 Moogs plus USPS shipping is even cheaper on Rockauto. I just did a clutch on my Saabaru and decided to replace the ball joints at the same time.

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    Yea I wonder why factory five designed it the suspension this way? Its the exact same in the Roadster design as well and that carries a lot more weight in the front from the motor. I am hoping that with the lesser amount of weight in the front of the 818 that this will be a non-issue but thanks for the update and I think I will be doing a replacement interval of mine as well.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Buzz Skyline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iblackwe View Post
    Yea I wonder why factory five designed it the suspension this way? Its the exact same in the Roadster design as well and that carries a lot more weight in the front from the motor. I am hoping that with the lesser amount of weight in the front of the 818 that this will be a non-issue but thanks for the update and I think I will be doing a replacement interval of mine as well.
    As I recall, you're correct that it's the same design as the Roadster, but those use ball joints that are much heavier duty that are actually intended to support the weight of the car. The WRX ball joints are called locator joints because they hold the LCA in the right position but carry relatively little weight in the stock application. The 818 suspension design turns them into supports, but they seem to handle it OK, in part because the car is so light I assume.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Buzz Skyline's Avatar
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    I think the ball joints in the Roadster also come with grease fittings and, more importantly, wear indicators so that you can check to see if they need to be replaced without removing them from the car.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Is it worth torquing the joints a little more cuz they carry more weight or that would have no probable effect at all?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  16. #16
    Senior Member Buzz Skyline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    Is it worth torquing the joints a little more cuz they carry more weight or that would have no probable effect at all?
    Do you mean torquing them past the WRX specified 22 foot-pounds on the castle nut? I don't think that would effect much. The ball joint shaft is designed to fit the LCA hole tightly (I needed a pickle fork to pull mine out). So tightening the nut doesn't affect the ball joint, which is the part that would wear.

    There's also a pinch bolt that holds the body of the joint in place. I think the torque on that is about 30 ft-lbs. I don't believe over-tightening it would have any effect on ball joint reliability either. Although it could potentially damage the threads in the iron of the knuckle. I tend to stick with WRX torque specs myself.
    Last edited by Buzz Skyline; 04-13-2016 at 10:59 AM.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Yeah that's what I meant. No effect most probably, tnx.

    About the pinch bolt on the spindle, torque is 37lbs and yes the threads within the spindle can be damaged by overtorquing, also your bolt will bend, even 12.9class.
    My mech overtorqued to 100-150lbs on these and when I bolt my new bolts, I see the threads on the bolt flatening a little. Luckily, it still works fine.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  18. #18
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    I'm happy to see I'm not the only one that is concerned about the way the Ball-joint is "exposed" differently to forces.
    I've been told regulators here have a tendency to question that kind of mechanical design issue... Let's hope they are not too much concerned with this one... Frank, when will you summit your kit for inspection?
    Last edited by Coolspot; 04-13-2016 at 07:01 PM.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolspot View Post
    I've been told regulators here have a tendency to question that kind of mechanical design issue... Let's hope theay are not too much concern with this one... Frank, when will you summit your kit for inspection?
    Oh no don't tell me that, plz. loll I've gone through enough pain already I really don't or can't support regulation pains on top of that, especially for something I didn't build myself. If I need to fix FFR's core design (suspension design is core on a car) just for regulations, I'm dead already. I have absolutely no expertise to solve the ball joint tension issue. I can fix a lot of crap on the car lolll, but that one, as of now, no.

    Am I the closer to street driving around here or what? I know someone who completed his kit 1.5 years ago but I haven't heard any news if it's approved yet or not.

    When do I go to inspection? Realistically speaking, Spring 17. Aggressively speaking but still mathematically possible, Autumn 16. It all depends on how bad my body panels will line up.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Skyline View Post
    I think the ball joints in the Roadster also come with grease fittings and, more importantly, wear indicators so that you can check to see if they need to be replaced without removing them from the car.
    Yes they do infact come with grease fittings but I don't recall wear indications.... I'll have to check thanks

  21. #21
    Senior Member flynntuna's Avatar
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    Does anyone happen to know the size of the pinch bolts for the lower ball joint? Mine were missing and the ball joint is in good shape.

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