engine choices - research question

[wareaglescott]

So after spending the last couple weeks reading as much as I can about these builds I have progressed from thinking about building a car to knowing I will build a car. I am now transitioning my research to coming up with a build plan. I have a lot of research to go because I have zero experience with cars other than very basic maintenance but I like the challenge of this project.

I am looking for input on a good engine choice and supplier for what I want to do. I am going to list my desires for the car and if you have any recommendations please submit them so I can use those recommendations to research.

My goal is to have a nice reliable driver.
I do not plan to track or drag race the car.
I am thinking somewhere around the 400hp range.
I do not have any engine tuning knowledge. I will have some help installing the engine and transmission and getting it running. After that I would like something with modern reliability that I do not have to do any additional tuning on. With that being said I believe fuel injection would be my preference.
I was interested in a coyote build, however I wear a size 13 shoe and from what I read you could lose some footbox room with the coyote so I am thinking a small block would be the way to go. Still considering a coyote though.

Any recommendations are much appreciated.
Thanks
Scott

[JIMOCO]

The engine options are abundant and you will receive many good suggestions. I asked for the same advice and looked at many vendors. You should check them all out before deciding and ask many questions from the forum members. I chose the Engine Factory. They are a sponsor of the forum and have several selections that could fit your needs. Take a look at their 331 and 347 strokers. My skills are limited but I was able to drop the engine in, make a few electrical connections and the engine started and has run perfectly. They are also good guys to work with.

[edwardb]

So after spending the last couple weeks reading as much as I can about these builds I have progressed from thinking about building a car to knowing I will build a car. I am now transitioning my research to coming up with a build plan. I have a lot of research to go because I have zero experience with cars other than very basic maintenance but I like the challenge of this project.

I am looking for input on a good engine choice and supplier for what I want to do. I am going to list my desires for the car and if you have any recommendations please submit them so I can use those recommendations to research.

My goal is to have a nice reliable driver.
I do not plan to track or drag race the car.
I am thinking somewhere around the 400hp range.
I do not have any engine tuning knowledge. I will have some help installing the engine and transmission and getting it running. After that I would like something with modern reliability that I do not have to do any additional tuning on. With that being said I believe fuel injection would be my preference.
I was interested in a coyote build, however I wear a size 13 shoe and from what I read you could lose some footbox room with the coyote so I am thinking a small block would be the way to go. Still considering a coyote though.

Any recommendations are much appreciated.
Thanks
Scott

You just described everything that a Coyote provides. Earlier versions of the footbox panels did reduce space, and was a stopper for me even with my measly 10-1/2's. I used modified panels that restored the space to within fractions of an inch of my completed SBF Mk4. The latest versions from Factory Five now have similar panels. Size 13's will have you scrambling for space no matter which engine you choose. But can be managed with narrowed and carefully placed pedals, whatever additional bump-outs can be added on each side, and don't overlook the kind of shoes you wear. While not racing shoes, I found some running shoes that are significantly narrower than my usual shoes, and really help.

This is a pic of the footbox in my current Coyote build. Those are Forte's AC pedals which are nice plus slightly narrower than the standard Wilwood pedals. Proper placement of the Coyote DBW is also important. It's a little hard to see, but the sheetmetal is over the 4 inch tube almost exactly in the same location as SBF sheet metal. The newest version of the sheet metal has an additional bump-out on the LH side that I don't have.

[6t8dart]

I also am building a 302 based roadster, with an AOD auto, I was able to expand the drivers side a little and the pass side a lot. I opted for a mild 302 my wife can drive, about 325 hp. The AOD leaves a lot of room for my size 13 wide shoes.

[wareaglescott]

You just described everything that a Coyote provides. Earlier versions of the footbox panels did reduce space, and was a stopper for me even with my measly 10-1/2's. I used modified panels that restored the space to within fractions of an inch of my completed SBF Mk4. The latest versions from Factory Five now have similar panels. Size 13's will have you scrambling for space no matter which engine you choose. But can be managed with narrowed and carefully placed pedals, whatever additional bump-outs can be added on each side, and don't overlook the kind of shoes you wear. While not racing shoes, I found some running shoes that are significantly narrower than my usual shoes, and really help.

This is a pic of the footbox in my current Coyote build. Those are Forte's AC pedals which are nice plus slightly narrower than the standard Wilwood pedals. Proper placement of the Coyote DBW is also important. It's a little hard to see, but the sheetmetal is over the 4 inch tube almost exactly in the same location as SBF sheet metal. The newest version of the sheet metal has an additional bump-out on the LH side that I don't have.

Thank you. I am going to show my ignorance here. Can you tell me what the "coyote dbw" is and also "sbf"? I am seriously starting with minimal knowledge base!

Also reading through your build thread and others it seems the coyote build is more complicated. How would you rate the complexity vs using a small block? I am somewhat intimidated by that aspect as well. The coyote definitely meets my desired end results but I am concerned about getting there! ha

[wareaglescott]

Thanks JIMOCO and 6t8dart!

[Toy4me]

Thank you. I am going to show my ignorance here. Can you tell me what the "coyote dbw" is and also "sbf"? I am seriously starting with minimal knowledge base!

Also reading through your build thread and others it seems the coyote build is more complicated. How would you rate the complexity vs using a small block? I am somewhat intimidated by that aspect as well. The coyote definitely meets my desired end results but I am concerned about getting there! ha

The dbw is drive by wire. There is no throttle cable. An electronic signal is sent from the pedal to the throttle on the engine. Most of your newer cars are dbw.

Sbf. Is small block Ford. Most likely meaning a 302 or 351 based motor.

[edwardb]

Thank you. I am going to show my ignorance here. Can you tell me what the "coyote dbw" is and also "sbf"? I am seriously starting with minimal knowledge base!

Also reading through your build thread and others it seems the coyote build is more complicated. How would you rate the complexity vs using a small block? I am somewhat intimidated by that aspect as well. The coyote definitely meets my desired end results but I am concerned about getting there! ha

Having done both, I agree the Coyote adds some complexity. If you're comparing to a carb'd engine, definitely the wiring and overall installation of the carb'd engine is simpler. But then there's the matter of getting the carb'd engine properly tuned, which isn't always simple. I've had good luck with both of my carb'd builds and they run great. But some don't have the same experience. If you're going to add EFI to an engine vs. a carb, then the gap gets a little narrower and there still can be tuning challenges. The Coyote is already engineered and (in theory) once installed should just go. I believe that's a pretty typical experience. I would say one of the biggest challenges right now is most of the Coyote installations have been the 2011-2014 version, and that's also what the Factory Five instructions show. My build is with the 2015-2016 version, plus this whole Coyote thing is new to me, so I've been learning as I go. There are a few other 2015 builds going on as well. I expect this will smooth out a bit with more experience and hopefully updated instructions. I talk about this a lot in my build thread. I don't rate the added Coyote wiring any more difficult than any of the other wiring required for one of these builds. Just adds more. Also I made a quite a few changes to the stock wiring in my build which is completely optional. Hope that helps.

The dbw is drive by wire. There is no throttle cable. An electronic signal is sent from the pedal to the throttle on the engine. Most of your newer cars are dbw.

Sbf. Is small block Ford. Most likely meaning a 302 or 351 based motor.

Yep, that's what they are all right. Sorry for the acronyms. The DBW signal goes to the PCM (Powertrain Control Module, or sometimes called ECM, Engine Control Module) and it determines the proper throttle position and sends the command to the throttle plate. Completely eliminates the need for a throttle cable or linkage. Kind of cool.

[GoDadGo]

From The Dark Side Guy:

If I didn't already have an engine and transmission sitting around, then I would have gone for a Carburated LS3 with front drive distributor and a TKO-600. These engines are very light, affordable, very reliable plus they really resemble a traditional Ford engine if you opt for one with the front distributor set up. Horsepower is good at 515-550, the weight is minimal since they are all aluminum mills and prices range from about $7,500 - $10,000 from Pace Performance. Also, this company has traditional Ford V-8's too.

Just know that if you go to the Dark Side you will be on your own to make things fit.

Good Luck & Have A Great Build!

[WIS89]

Scott-

Please don't feel intimidated! Ignorance is something that is expected for lots of people (My problem is ignorance AND stupidity -- now THAT'S a problem!), and is fixed by doing exactly what you are doing! Asking questions, doing research, making plans are all the ways to get off to a great start. The build, while complex, is not really difficult! There are challenges to be sure, and some time spent head scratching is to be expected. But, folks from very disparate backgrounds have built beautiful cars, and I suspect you can too!

There are lots of acronyms that get thrown around, and it is easy to get confused. Don't sweat it, just do what you did -- ask. Don't let it discourage you! The rewards far outweigh any initial reluctance!!

I hope I have helped. Best of luck in your planning!

Regards,

Steve

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Don't think you will have anymore difficulty installing a Coyote than a carbed engine. A lot of us were early adopters & had to do some freelancing of parts/sheet metal but even that was well within most peoples capabilities.

The biggest issue as mentioned above was room in the DS foot box so you did not catch your feet on the pedals. Like most breakthroughs a few of us came up with pretty much the same solution of using the Coyote upper inside foot box wall & the lower normal small block wall connected with a piece of triangular sheet metal cut from scrap & riveted together.

FFR which follows these forums now supplied this part already made. On the outside wall some of the guys put in a kickout panel to make more room on the left side of the foot well. This part is also now supplied by FFR ready made.

I am working with two local guys installing the new Coyote version & both their kits have the new pieces of sheet metal in them. There is still some changes that need to be made to the motor itself but by the time you get a kit & are ready to install the engine these things will be worked out. The Coyote is becoming a very popular choice for those who want a very quick daily driver that you just have to turn the key & change the oil to make it go for a 100K miles.



FWIW Dave Smith who owns FFR has a Coyote powered roadster that ran heads up with a Lamborghini Gallardo in a Hot Rod Magazine test at the Las Vegas road course.

[GoDadGo]

1. No matter what engine choice you pick, just make sure that you like it.
2. If it's a 289, 302, 351 FE, Big Block or some other motor that you like, then go for it.
3. If you like modern power, that's A-Okay too, especially important if you live in a Smog Sniffing State!
4. For me it was bringing back to life the Heart & Soul of a car that I loved, but lost in Hurricane Katrina. (August 29, 2005)

My advice is follow your heart and build your dream.

PS: Look at the builds from David Hodgkins, Edwardb, Jeff Kleiner & Ehansen007 for some inspiration.

[Raceral]

I would go with a complete 302 or 351 already setup and tuned WITH the clutch,bell, trans all ready bolted on and shipped to your house. There are many that will do that. I suspect with all new parts, you will be looking at 10 to 15 k , depending how much HP the motor has.. Get the complete kit and a nice ready to drop in rearend from Forte and you will be one happy camper

[Bad Moose]

My input is this. If you are wanting a reliable daily driver keep the HP down below 400. At 2500 pounds that is more than enough horsepower for what you are wanting and you'll be able to get it fairly reliable.

Here's my basis, mine has 530hp/524 torque. It is an intense handful. Would I do it again probably not. But the car was built for the horsepower and the desire to have it, not for daily driving. My weekend driver is a 3/4 2wd diesel with 415HP and more torque than I'll ever need at around 6850 pounds. It still more than enough but easily managed and wild if you want it to be.

These are just my thoughts.

[Garry Bopp]

Scott,

My next build (coupe) will have the Coyote motor. Reliable, powerful, economical and smooth! BTW, non-revved home from LAX today ... attended the Factory Five show at Huntington Beach on Saturday. Yesterday, took in the Petersen Automotive Museum.

Garry

[wareaglescott]

I would go with a complete 302 or 351 already setup and tuned WITH the clutch,bell, trans all ready bolted on and shipped to your house. There are many that will do that. I suspect with all new parts, you will be looking at 10 to 15 k , depending how much HP the motor has.. Get the complete kit and a nice ready to drop in rearend from Forte and you will be one happy camper

A fully assembled setup sounds appealing to me.
Can anyone list some suppliers that do this so I can look into them further?

[wareaglescott]

Thank you everyone for the input and suggestions.

Garry Bopp thanks and I will discuss this with you more when I come to visit.

[edwardb]

A fully assembled setup sounds appealing to me. Can anyone list some suppliers that do this so I can look into them further?

Many engine suppliers will add the flywheel, clutch, bell, trans, etc. Just ask. Crate Coyote comes with a nodular flywheel already installed. But for shipping purposes, likely it will not all be in one piece. Just too big. Probably at least the transmission will be separate. But having said that, if you're using a common block and setup, the parts required are well known and assembly is very straightforward. Assembling these pieces is easier than many of the steps required to actually build the car.

[CraigS]

I love the way the Coyote runs in my wife's 15 mustang GT but personally don't care for the looks in an FFR. I recommend that you call Mike Forte and talk to him about a 351 based engine w/ efi. A very mild engine can be built that will be at or a little over 400hp and it will run forever. The efi will get you the modern driveabliity in an old school engine that looks great in an FFR. He can also supply clutch and trans.
http://www.fortesparts.com/

[Dale Claytor]

So after spending the last couple weeks reading as much as I can about these builds I have progressed from thinking about building a car to knowing I will build a car. I am now transitioning my research to coming up with a build plan. I have a lot of research to go because I have zero experience with cars other than very basic maintenance but I like the challenge of this project.

I am looking for input on a good engine choice and supplier for what I want to do. I am going to list my desires for the car and if you have any recommendations please submit them so I can use those recommendations to research.

My goal is to have a nice reliable driver.
I do not plan to track or drag race the car.
I am thinking somewhere around the 400hp range.
I do not have any engine tuning knowledge. I will have some help installing the engine and transmission and getting it running. After that I would like something with modern reliability that I do not have to do any additional tuning on. With that being said I believe fuel injection would be my preference.
I was interested in a coyote build, however I wear a size 13 shoe and from what I read you could lose some footbox room with the coyote so I am thinking a small block would be the way to go. Still considering a coyote though.

Any recommendations are much appreciated.
Thanks
Scott

After much research, I recently purchased a Blueprint Engines 347 stroker through Summit Racing after dropping a valve in my previous stroker. The reasons I chose a Blueprint Engine is that their engines are built for daily drivers, are sold through Summit among others so you have the Summit backup, come with a 30 month 50 thousand mile warranty, and they have decent reviews. Not to mention the price. The engine came with a dyno sheet showing 411 hp and 421 lb/ft of torque. I have installed the engine and can say it runs much better than my previous one, has the same hp and torque, but is much more suited to daily/road driving conditions. Plainly it is much more fun to drive than before. I am really happy with this engine. Hope this helps.

Dale

P.S. Installed a FiTech EFI in place of my carb and tuning has been a snap

[wareaglescott]

After much research, I recently purchased a Blueprint Engines 347 stroker through Summit Racing after dropping a valve in my previous stroker. The reasons I chose a Blueprint Engine is that their engines are built for daily drivers, are sold through Summit among others so you have the Summit backup, come with a 30 month 50 thousand mile warranty, and they have decent reviews. Not to mention the price. The engine came with a dyno sheet showing 411 hp and 421 lb/ft of torque. I have installed the engine and can say it runs much better than my previous one, has the same hp and torque, but is much more suited to daily/road driving conditions. Plainly it is much more fun to drive than before. I am really happy with this engine. Hope this helps.

Dale

Thanks Dale. I will look into that. Also thanks for your service in the USMC!

[JIMOCO]

I agree with raceral. I bought the complete engine/clutch/bell housing package from the Engine Factory and the trans and rear end from Mike Forte. Installation was straight forward and problem free. Both companies were easy to work with and gave me great advice when matching my goals and equipment choices. Everything is running perfectly. I am an happy camper.

[pcww]

Scott,
A slightly different perspective. First , whatever Paul Boror says ( Edward B) is gospel. You will find he, Jeff Kleiner et al to be absolute authorities. But Paul is now on his third build and if I guess correctly doing a little experimenting and doing something different. I would suggest you consider something more traditional for your build along the lines of a 302 or 351 small block Ford. Not going to be as reliable or easy starting but probably a little cheaper and more fun. Looking under the hood and seeing the Coyote is a little different from seeing a traditional Ford. This is not a one is better deal but one is different deal.
go to the London Cobra show and look and talk. THat helped me make up my mind. Henry

[BEAR-AvHistory]

A fully assembled setup sounds appealing to me.
Can anyone list some suppliers that do this so I can look into them further?

These four have it all covered & they are made up specifically for the roadster

Summit Racing
http://www.summitracing.com/search/b...MK4%20ROADSTER
Forte
http://www.fortesparts.com/search-re...ageID=12906167
JEGS
http://www.jegs.com/v/Ford-Performance/397
Levy
http://levyracing.com/factory-five-cars

[hmoody98]

A lot of solid information here.

My heart wants to do a 302 SBF carbed and putting out around 400hp.

My wallet says just get the motor from a donor and deal with building my own motor later. LOL

[wareaglescott]

Thanks again to all. Now I have some good info to look into. Sure appreciate how helpful everyone in this community is!