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  1. #1
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    Bump steer

    A few questions about bump steer.

    At S ride height, can I use the tapered bolt that comes with the Baer kit or will it be too short?

    I watched a video demoing the Longacre bump steer gauge and one thing I don't understand is how the gauge reading is not impacted by camber change induced by suspension travel. As the suspension compresses, doesn't negative camber increase and wouldn't this impact the reading?

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    If you have the single dial indicator there is a wheel on the other side that rides on the plate as the suspension travels up and down. The effect of camber gain is the same on the idler roller and the dial indicator so camber will not show up as bump steer, only toe in or out will be indicated. The change in toe is what creates bump steer.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Canadian818's Avatar
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    Is bump steer an issue at S ride height?
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  4. #4
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    Thx Naz.

    Adam, I believe it is. My alignment is good but when hitting bumps in the road it is quite darty. I am sure it would be worse at R height but I plan to buy the longacre gauge and test it on my S at S height to see. I would bet there is more than an ideal amount but we shall see. I don't think anyone has tested a stock suspension S setup yet.

  5. #5
    Senior Member UnhipPopano's Avatar
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    Hindsight, There was a post on this site somewhere that made the point that the hinge between the inner and outer steering rods needed to be in the plane created by the upper and lower control arm hinges. To me this sounded easier said than done, as adjusting the caster would move the plane. Did you verify that this hinge is along this plane after setting the caster?

  6. #6
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    Hmmm, I am not sure I follow. My understanding is that if you traced a line that followed the angle of the upper control arm, the lower control arm, and the tie rod, that they should all intersect at a point. Like this diagram:
    https://goo.gl/images/F0nlP5

    Is this the same as you are saying?

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    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    To test my bump steer.
    I blocked the front car at 1" higher than ride height.
    I removed the front coil overs.
    I tie wrap a laser level to my front wheels spokes.
    then raised my front wheel to measure the horizontal movement of the dot on my garage door.
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  8. #8

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    That won't work. As said above, as the wheel moves through it's arc, camber changes. You need to measure the distance that the front of the tire moves and the distance the rear of the tire moves. The difference between the two measurements is bump steer.

    I made a simple adaptor to measure it. It was almost free, since I used stuff left over from other projects.



    Move the hub through it's arc up and down, and measure the distance it moves. Then flip it around and do the rear. Subtract one from the other, and there you are.
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  9. #9
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    Thanks for the replies. Seems like no one with a stock suspension S has mearured bump steer yet. I will do it and report back results in a couple weeks.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Canadian818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    Thanks for the replies. Seems like no one with a stock suspension S has mearured bump steer yet. I will do it and report back results in a couple weeks.
    You're contributions are appreciated. Looking forward to seeing the results.
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  11. #11
    Senior Member Junty's Avatar
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    Hey crew, my 818s (although RHD) absolutely suffered bump-steer. I have standard S shocks, and initial setup was following precisely FFR specifications for ride height. I purchased the WhiteLine bump steer correction kit KCA313 http://www.whiteline.com.au/product_..._number=KCA313 - these are available from eBay. Due to the changes FFR have made between the coli over WRX setup - I didn't use the lower arm modified joints - I just used the WhiteLine tie rod ends, these lower the rack end pivot to the front hubs, improving the geometry as suspension raises and lowers. Easy fix...

  12. #12
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    Thanks Junty. Did you happen to measure the bump steer before and after to see how bad it was and how close to 0 the whiteline tie rod ends brought you to?

  13. #13
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    Thanks Junty. Did you happen to measure the bump steer before and after to see how bad it was and how close to 0 the whiteline tie rod ends brought you to?
    That kit looks odd as it seems a fixed height and something you can't adjust. I would also like to see before/after
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    Senior Member Junty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFRSpec72 View Post
    That kit looks odd as it seems a fixed height and something you can't adjust. I would also like to see before/after
    Hey Tony, I'll endeavour to locate the alignment printouts with bump-steer. You are correct these are fixed height. The kit was specifically designed to correct the imminent bump-steer so common in WRX Subaru's that have been lowered. In NZ we have very strict compliance for custom, modified or built cars, the baer style kit does not comply.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Junty's Avatar
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    Hey all, sorry for the delay but I've finally located all my alignment printouts...
    This was all completed more than 12 months ago, the 818s is driven most days, and has now done more than 5500miles. The first image is the full wheel alignment, then next is the 'Bump Steer' test with the standard FFR specification for the build. The final image is the same 'Bump Steer' test with the only change being the swapping of the standard Subaru 'Tie Rod' ends to the new 'Whittline' Subaru bump steer correction ones.
    I trust that this helps others correct bump steer...
    Note the 818 is setup to exactly what FFR recommends, the car has 818s shocks and springs and ride height is to FFR specification. Overall the car handles superbly well and appears to riding on tracks around corners at phenomenal speeds...alignment.jpegFFR bump.jpegwhiteline bump.jpeg

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    Alignment was -3 camber, +6 caster and 1/8 toe out (1/16 each side)

    Tony, I am curios on the toe out spec,the manual specs toe in 1/16" front wheels. Not toe out??

  17. #17
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMC7492 View Post
    Alignment was -3 camber, +6 caster and 1/8 toe out (1/16 each side)

    Tony, I am curios on the toe out spec,the manual specs toe in 1/16" front wheels. Not toe out??
    I always race with a toe out or 1/16 to 1/8 total as I run a high caster.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMC7492 View Post
    I am curios on the toe out spec,the manual specs toe in 1/16" front wheels. Not toe out??
    Most race cars run toe-out. Helps with turn-in.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Junty's Avatar
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    All my alignment, ride height, camber caster etc including bump steer was measured on a machine. I have computer sheets - somewhere? My car has now completed 8000+km and the bump-steer was corrected more than a year back... I'll endeavour to locate the printouts...

  20. #20
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    So finished up the bump steer this weekend, I was able to get .

    Driver side .0020 on compression
    Driver side .0040 on droop
    Passenger side .0010 on compression
    Passenger side .0030 on Droop

    Alignment was -3 camber, +6 caster and 1/8 toe out (1/16 each side)

    The passenger side did not need as tall of a spacer as the drivers side did
    Last edited by FFRSpec72; 01-22-2017 at 09:42 PM.
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    We measured toe at height, then dropped the ride height by 1.5" (to mirror compression) and measured toe again. What's wrong with my theory? (we ended up with 1/8" different, 1/8th toe in to 0)

  22. #22
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetroRacing View Post
    We measured toe at height, then dropped the ride height by 1.5" (to mirror compression) and measured toe again. What's wrong with my theory? (we ended up with 1/8" different, 1/8th toe in to 0)
    Nothing, that is basically what the Longacre gauge does http://www.longacreracing.com/instru...ge%20-%2079000
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  23. #23
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    And it works great, this is the gauge that I have been using for years http://www.longacreracing.com/produc...port%2fCompact

  24. #24
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    I'll be buying the Longacre gauge as well. They have a new one with billet plate and digital gauge. All this "race stuff" though.... for my "street car". Kind of afraid my next move is going to be selling my daily driver and replacing it with a tow vehicle then buying a trailer and, and, and....

  25. #25
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    I'll be buying the Longacre gauge as well. They have a new one with billet plate and digital gauge. All this "race stuff" though.... for my "street car". Kind of afraid my next move is going to be selling my daily driver and replacing it with a tow vehicle then buying a trailer and, and, and....
    See if they have one in their "refurbished" catalog" as they usually do. they are just up the road from me, they basically grew business from the local circle track here
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  26. #26
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    I'll be buying the Longacre gauge as well. They have a new one with billet plate and digital gauge. All this "race stuff" though.... for my "street car". Kind of afraid my next move is going to be selling my daily driver and replacing it with a tow vehicle then buying a trailer and, and, and....
    You should look at the Longacre refurbished list as all the stuff on this list has just been used at shows, and it can save you lots on $$$$. I live somewhat close to Longacre as they do most of their testing at the Monroe circle track about a mile away from them so they have some great products that actually work.
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  27. #27
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    Hindsight, you will be glad you purchased a bump steer gauge as it makes checking the bump steer much easier than some of the home made tools I've seen in use (including my own cobbled together ones). Most of the ones I've seen will do the job but are a bit cumbersome to use. Keep in mind that when you start adjusting out of the condition that caused bump steer you will be checking each side numerous times as the adjustment process is iterative. And because the steering system is a "system" every time you make and adjustment to caster, camber, ride hight, etc you may be affecting bump steer. Also, don't just check bump steer with the wheels straight ahead. Even if you achieved zero bump steer with the wheels straight you may find that toe changes at a different rate when the wheels are turned as when cornering. I use a Longacre single dial bump steer gauge and find it works reasonably well but I modified mine to stiffen the tubular frame for improved repeatability. I don't trust a reading if the indicator doesn't zero when returned to the starting position. Good luck and have fun.

  28. #28
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    Thanks Naz and Tony.... very helpful!

  29. #29
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    Thanks for posting this junty. If I'm reading that right, it appears that the white line tie rod ends reduced the bump steer from an average of 10 degrees to an average of about 8.5 degrees?

    Ideally, you want to shoot for 0 degrees total.

  30. #30
    Senior Member Junty's Avatar
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    Hey there Hindsight. Its actually better than that. I'll get information tomorrow - but as I understand it we need less than 0.5. The number in the centre is what they are using to rate the Bump Steer. My final is 0.4.... I'll post more information tomorrow...

  31. #31
    Senior Member Canadian818's Avatar
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    I was just checking out some DIY bump steer gauges and came across this guys idea. Similar to Bob's idea with the laser pointer, but it very clearly separates steering changes from camber.

    http://www.pro-tourings10.com/index.php?topic=1110.0
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  32. #32
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    My 818S had a major problem with bump steer and for New Zealand compliance we need to eliminate all bump steer. At the standard S ride height it was impossible (although I know Justien managed to achieve it) but I had use the R mounting with the top A arm on top of the mounting.

    Some pics ...

    2016-09-02 20.32.45.jpg2016-09-02 20.33.09.jpg

    Probably the only major engineering issue with the kit - and the conversion to right-hand drive too.

  33. #33
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    Thanks for sharing gpatterson. That's very interesting about using the R mounting location for the upper control arm. I assume you did not use the R mounting location for the lower arm?

    Now I am REALLY curious to measure my bumpsteer with the gauge I bought.

  34. #34
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    I've used Smart Strings for years to do my setups. They are a little expensive but vs a couple of alignments at a shop they pay for themselves. And they are the only way to do it at the track.

    However I've never considered using them to check bump steer. I think they would work fine in that application too but I'm no suspension guru.
    As long as I already have them all setup for the usual 4 wheel toe and thrust check it seems like it would be easy to put a floor jack under each wheel one at a time and do a 4 wheel bump steer test.
    Can anyone think why they wouldn't work for bumpsteer?

    Here's the manual if you aren't familiar with how they work: http://www.smartracingproducts.com/s..._manual_v1.pdf
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  35. #35
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    I use a string alignment as well (though just via jack stands, fishing wire, and conduit pipe). How do you use it at the track though? You need a perfectly level surface for the car and that is hard to find at a track.

    The issue with using strings to check bump is that you want the string on the center line of the rotor and as you raise or lower the suspension, the string will no longer be in the right spot. In addition, as you raise the suspension, the wheel/rotor camber will increase, and it will also move inward away from the string. You could account for this in your measurements by measuring from the front and from the rear and then doing the math but the height of the string is still going to be a problem. Bottom line - I'm sure it would work but it would be quite a pain. A nice Longacre bump steer gauge can be had for like $150.

  36. #36
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    Ahh, good point about the center of the rotor/hub. I'll get the Longacre gauge.

    Regarding at the track, for perfection I've seen guys using a roll on leveling tracks. However I'm not using it for finding the perfect alignment. I use it for "oh crap I just got smacked by a another car during qualifying" or I just smacked an immovable object in practice and I have to get things close enough to finish the race / weekend. For "good enough" you just need to find a relatively flat space.
    Last edited by Sgt.Gator; 09-02-2016 at 11:15 AM.
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  37. #37
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    Got it, that makes sense.

    I've been planning out some "alignment leveling pads". I need them to do alignment in my own garage anyway because my cement garage floor is not level. Lots of high and low spots. You could take these to the track as well.

    Basically like this but without the scales:
    170133.JPG

    Would be easy to weld up a lower-rent version of that using 2" steel tube, some steel plate, and some 1/2" diameter leveling feet from McMaster. I like that they are rectangular to give you enough space to roll the car back and forth a bit to un-jack the wheels after you make an adjustment. You would want these high enough that you could get under the car to adjust the suspension. This also means you'd have to jack the car up, place these under the tires, then lower the car down on them (one end at a time). No big deal.

  38. #38
    Senior Member Canadian818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    Got it, that makes sense.

    I've been planning out some "alignment leveling pads". I need them to do alignment in my own garage anyway because my cement garage floor is not level. Lots of high and low spots. You could take these to the track as well.

    Basically like this but without the scales:
    170133.JPG

    Would be easy to weld up a lower-rent version of that using 2" steel tube, some steel plate, and some 1/2" diameter leveling feet from McMaster. I like that they are rectangular to give you enough space to roll the car back and forth a bit to un-jack the wheels after you make an adjustment. You would want these high enough that you could get under the car to adjust the suspension. This also means you'd have to jack the car up, place these under the tires, then lower the car down on them (one end at a time). No big deal.

    I found some cement patio stones and a pack of door shims worked great for making a level surface in my garage. I'm going to try the laser pointer method to check mine. I don't have enough threads on my tie rod on the passenger side, right now I just split the difference and the wheel is way off center. If I need bump steer adjustment I'll just replace the outter section with a longer threaded collar and a hiem joint.
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  39. #39
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Has anyone measured the rear bump steer to see where that stands ?
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  40. #40
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    I assume FFR has the entire 818 digitized and modeled in Solidworks. If so, shouldnt they be able to obtain the expected bump steer effect by moving the suspension through its motion and measuring the effect on the suspension geometry? This would be nice to have to compare to measurements made on actual assemblies, which presumably FFR has also done. Any chance they would report the values that they see? Jesper, does FFR have these values and if so can they be published? I may not understand what is involved and if so please disregard.

    -ben

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