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Thread: Quick, Talk some sense into me!

  1. #81
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    did you ever get the engine running? Also, how is the part-out progressing?
    Factory Five 818c #456

  2. #82
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    I did the leakdown and discovered a bent valve on the first cylinder I tested (front driver side, not sure of the numbering scheme yet) so I quit there.

    The part out has netted me $197.95 in seats, floormats, and gasoline (yes, I drained the tank and used it). I still have a bunch of parts, but no joy. I lowered the price on some of the stuff last night, but the smaller things not getting in the way deserve a little more patience from me. I'm really surprised nobody wants the rear strut bar, but I'll probably have better luck when I move it to ebay.

    Frankly, I'm surprised to have not gotten any traction on some of this stuff at NASIOC, but I'll bet my super low post count has something to do with that. Either way, at the price I paid for the wreck I'm still in pretty good shape, overall.

  3. #83
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    try saab92x.com. apparently, that rear hatch is a hard to find item. Also, the front drivers side is cylinder #2 driver rear #4 pass front #1 and pass rear #3.
    Factory Five 818c #456

  4. #84
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    Thanks for the heads up. My harness got stuck in the hatch, so I kinda wrecked it, lol. But the glass is still good!!

  5. #85
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    Actually got some stuff sold on the saab forum!! Not getting rich, but helping me stay on budget.

    Disassembled all the brakes and they look good, just dirty, so rebuilding them should be CHEAP = good.

    Started in on the engine today and got the intake/tgvs off. The intake valves don't look visibly bent, but I hooked up my air hose and only the #1 cylinder is tight. All the rest leak a bit. Forgot to verify that the valves were shut on #1 and it blew a bunch of black crud at me, so the inside isn't in great shape either. Probably ready for a rebuild whether it bent valves or not.

  6. #86
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    20170326_123646.jpg20170326_123704.jpg

    This was the first cylinder I tested with my homebrew leakdown. Funny enough, I could hear the intake valves leaking, but it's the exhaust valves that got marked by the piston.

    Pretty clear to see which valves got smacked. And if you look closely at the pistons, you can see those valve reliefs are the cleanest part of any of the pistons. Also a ton of carbon buildup in the intake ports, probably from the leaky valves. I can't believe this engine was possibly running well when the car got wrecked. So I guess it's just as well to tear it down now.

    Here are some pictures of the others.
    20170325_170238.jpg20170325_170249.jpg20170325_170254.jpg

  7. #87
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    Carbon buildup is normal with these engines.

  8. #88
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    I'll take your word for it because this is my first boxer engine. But I promise you I was SHOCKED.

  9. #89
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    Work picked up (how many times have I read that here?) but I finally got around to dropping my heads off at the shop. I was just going to have it surfaced and get the valves/seats cut, but there isn't much of a price difference for them to reassemble it and set the lash, too. So, I'll move on and let them do it. Upside, the guy says he has a valve or two he can pop in since one valve is definitely bent and another one might be. Cool guy, and he has considered building an 818. Hopefully it won't take me 3 years to finish and I can stop back by to show off

  10. #90
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    cool! Can't wait to see it back in one piece
    Factory Five 818c #456

  11. #91
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    I would never let a machine shop set the valve lash unless they are one of a very few Subaru high performance shops. Even then I'd do it myself. A lesson learned many times on the NASIOC and Legacy Forums.

    Almost all standard machine shops don't use the Subaru FSM procedure. They will not use the correct buckets. They don't stock them and it takes too long to mess around with them. So their answer is to cut the tops off the valves to get the correct clearance. We have also seen shops that use a reference guide for determining the clearance that is wrong, it is not the same clearance as in the Subaru FSM. You can debate whether "tipping" the valves is bad for them or not. Some people say it's fine, many others are adamant that it ruins the valve in the long run and accelerates wear on the bucket. If you're interested in that debate you can search nasioc, iwsti,or legacy gt forums and see lots more info. I don't know for sure one way or the other. There is no debate that tipping procedure is not the way Subaru does it. Personally I like knowing the valves are exactly as manufactured, so I would never let a shop cut them down.

    Also you can be 99% sure that if they are cutting the valve tops that they didn't measure each bucket to see if it is still within spec. Buckets have worn thru and failed. It's a miserable failure when that happens. Cobb no longer re-uses old buckets at all after one very expensive failure they had to cover. If you take your engine to Cobb for a rebuild you get all new buckets.

    In the least each old bucket must be measured and documented to be in spec. Then use a permanent pen to mark the "new" thickness on the bucket. If they are used you can be positive they are no longer as thick as the mark inside the bucket says it was when new. Never go by the mark inside the bucket for used buckets, and I even check brand new ones. Although I've never had a new one measure different than Subaru's mark, I still check.

    Finally it is documented many times that heads that set their valve clearance on a bench almost always are out of the correct valve clearance when they are torqued down to the block, even if the shop has used swapped/bought new buckets. Some folks claim that you even have to measure after the timing belt is installed.

    Note that in the Subaru FSM procedure the heads are on the block and the timing belt is installed. You adjust the valve lash by using the correct thickness bucket for each valve. If your shop is cutting the valve stem I can almost guarantee that when you get everything bolted back together and do your own valve lash measurements 9 out of 10 valves will not be within Subaru spec.

    You might want to drop by the shop and ask them what procedure they are using to set your valve clearance. If it's the "tip" the valve method I would tell them you'll just do it yourself.
    "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
    Owner: Colonel Red Racing
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    818R ICSCC SPM
    2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
    Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer

  12. #92
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    Not exactly a race shop, but they have a Subaru guy. I disassembled, cleaned, and inspected the heads, and I'll do the same when I get them back. I already talked to the guy about the service, and they will tip the valves. I'm comfortable with that. I still hadn't decided whether I was going to cut the buckets(not exactly comfortable with that, and relieved that I don't have to make that decision) or build something to tip the valves myself.

    I'm not building a 9000 RPM 500hp engine. This is a stock rebuild, and I haven't even convinced myself to look for the bigger injectors and turn up the boost. If the engine can't take a regular rebuild at stock levels, then it's garbage to begin with.

    Thanks for the heads up (so to speak) on torquing down the heads and re-checking the lash. I'll be sure to post my experience when I get that far. Might be a while, though. Apparently the only semi-local shop that machines Subaru blocks has a 2 month lead time.

  13. #93
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    You really can't blame Subaru for the engine skipping timing and bending a valve due to a front end collision, they aren't garbage but the stock tuning leaves a lot to be desired. These engines really respond well to a uppipe, downpipe and a tune with some head room left on the stock fueling. I think that would be ample for most in the 818 but I think the goal should be to get it running first.
    Factory Five 818c #456

  14. #94
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    Don't take me wrong. I'm not saying the engine is garbage because it broke. I'm saying if Subaru designed an engine that can't be rebuilt without using brand new parts for everything except the block and head castings (like many at NASIOC insist) THAT makes it garbage. I believe it will be just fine for what I'm doing or I wouldn't spend a dime on it.

  15. #95
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    Been a while since I updated. Got my heads back from the shop. Still have to verify the work, but they sure do LOOK good! Update with some blasted/painted parts.
    FormatFactory20170607_054635.jpgFormatFactory20170607_054641.jpgFormatFactory20170609_144724.jpgFormatFactory20170609_144733.jpg

  16. #96
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    Uh... Unless you have some sort of voodoo lowering kit or something your rear lateral links are muy ****arito.

    Both those links in your first picture are supposed to be dead-nuts straight.

  17. #97
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    All four? Bad news then. I meant to look it up at one point, and just...forgot. Somewhere along the line I just started thinking Subaru did that because the bend was so SMOOTH. Guess I'll be looking for some new ones. And hey, why replace when I can upgrade?

    Seriously though, I know diddley squat about suspensions. It's my only real concern about this build. Thanks for the heads up.

  18. #98
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    Yeah, all four should be straight. You're far from the first on here to get a donor with bent ones. It typically happens when the guy at co-part (or wherever) picks up the donor with a fork lift.

    If it's any consolation yours are probably 2 or 3 times more bent than any others I've ever seen.

  19. #99
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    Which makes it all the more embarrassing that I cleaned them, painted them, and posted PICTURES as proof....
    I guess we can tell where I'm going to have the most build questions, eh? I mean, my body-work is weak, but not THAT weak.

  20. #100
    Senior Member fastzrex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbomacncheese View Post
    All four? Bad news then. I meant to look it up at one point, and just...forgot. Somewhere along the line I just started thinking Subaru did that because the bend was so SMOOTH. Guess I'll be looking for some new ones. And hey, why replace when I can upgrade?

    Seriously though, I know diddley squat about suspensions. It's my only real concern about this build. Thanks for the heads up.
    I had two bent for sure, but replaced all four just in case.
    ~ Mark

    818C S/N 429ES: Start Date 1 September 2016
    2001 NB Miata LS3 V8 440 rwhp
    2004 Miata MazdaSpeed Factory Turbo

  21. #101
    Senior Member DSR-3's Avatar
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    Mine too were toast...
    I see the price has increased since I bought mine, but I think these are still a good deal;
    https://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-45K01.../dp/B0010DPDU8

  22. #102
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    I straightened them out on my press just for giggles and grins. Can't believe how easy they bent. I'm not planning on using them, because it seems like they'd bend EXTRA easy next time around. I won't be doing any racing (I think) but with as soft as they are to begin with...jeepers. I'm going to check in on some part out threads on NASIOC. Plus, seems like a few people over there are upgrading to adjustable bits, so maybe I'll score a deal.

  23. #103
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    I went with the tubes and rod ends.
    P1050497s.jpg

    The 818r-supplemental-instructions from FFR has a parts list and instructions.
    Bob
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 06-13-2017 at 01:51 AM.
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
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  24. #104
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    Bob, I don't think I understand what you're getting at. I have some sort of gap between my bent links and the supplemental instructions. What am I missing?

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbomacncheese View Post
    Bob, I don't think I understand what you're getting at. I have some sort of gap between my bent links and the supplemental instructions. What am I missing?
    Turbo
    I had bent links also.
    Instead of sourcing new lateral links I just went with Swag tubes and rod ends.
    The "R" supplement manual has a list of parts and the procedure you need to do. Page 12 thru 16.
    Bob
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
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  26. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    I went with the tubes and rod ends.
    P1050497s.jpg

    The 818r-supplemental-instructions from FFR has a parts list and instructions.
    Bob
    Bob when and why did you switch from the FFR lateral links?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  27. #107
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynntuna View Post
    Bob when and why did you switch from the FFR lateral links?
    FFR supplied 2 adjustable lateral links per kit. I used all four on my first car as you show in the picture you posted.
    I went with the swag tube on the second car in summer of 2014. They are also much lighter.
    Bob
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

  28. #108
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    So SWAG tube = DIY lateral are those instructions ONLY included in the R manual? I'm planning a C...any reason I might not want to use them?

  29. #109
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbomacncheese View Post
    So SWAG tube = DIY lateral are those instructions ONLY included in the R manual? I'm planning a C...any reason I might not want to use them?
    You have to drill a bunch of holes out to 5/8" including the long bolt in the knuckle, spindle, upright.
    Bob
    fff.jpg

    here is a picture of one of FFR cars.
    IMG-20140703-03920.jpg
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 06-14-2017 at 01:56 AM.
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

  30. #110
    Senior Member flynntuna's Avatar
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    From what I have seen in the R suppmental using these lateral links eliminates the need for the cam bolts and washerst that the S manual calls for, right?

  31. #111
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynntuna View Post
    From what I have seen in the R suppmental using these lateral links eliminates the need for the cam bolts and washerst that the S manual calls for, right?
    Correct, No Cam Bolts.
    Also, it is much easier to make small adjustment to track width for tire clearance.
    Bob
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

  32. #112
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    I looked up swage tubes on Summit Racing. Found what looks like all the other pieces in that picture. Looks like I can put together a DIY kit about $40 a piece, not counting shipping. Sound right to you?

  33. #113
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbomacncheese View Post
    I looked up swage tubes on Summit Racing. Found what looks like all the other pieces in that picture. Looks like I can put together a DIY kit about $40 a piece, not counting shipping. Sound right to you?
    Sorry, my mind is blank when it comes to what everything cost.
    Bob
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

  34. #114
    Senior Member flynntuna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbomacncheese View Post
    I looked up swage tubes on Summit Racing. Found what looks like all the other pieces in that picture. Looks like I can put together a DIY kit about $40 a piece, not counting shipping. Sound right to you?
    From what I saw at summit, it looked like $204-284 for the Rod ends and swag tubes. Not counting delivery, tax or bolts and washers. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/f...commendedparts

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/a...commendedparts

  35. #115
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    Sorry, my mind is blank when it comes to what everything cost.
    Bob
    Found my summit invoice:
    Bob
    Attached Images Attached Images
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

  36. #116
    Senior Member flynntuna's Avatar
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    Thanks Bob for the list, I see the swag link tubes you have listed are 13" . The R manual calls for 12".
    Did you use them at 13" or did you need to cut them down?

  37. #117
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynntuna View Post
    Thanks Bob for the list, I see the swag link tubes you have listed are 13" . The R manual calls for 12".
    Did you use them at 13" or did you need to cut them down?
    I used 13"
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

  38. #118
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    Thanks Bob!

  39. #119
    Senior Member flynntuna's Avatar
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    Bob, how did using the "R" mounting points for the lateral links having a negative affect your alignment ? Don't the lateral links have to be level to avoid " squirrelly " handling ?

  40. #120
    Senior Member flynntuna's Avatar
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    Well with a little digging I found the answer...

    https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...5-818-handling

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