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Thread: Wow!! FF really dropped the QC Ball here!

  1. #81
    Senior Member flynntuna's Avatar
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    The TVR t350 has a similar door too..
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  2. #82
    Senior Member flynntuna's Avatar
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    The one change you might concider is extending the a pillar to the frame and trimming the hood to the end of the extended a pillar.
    I'd be fearful of breaking off the tips of the hood when it's off the car.
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  3. #83
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    That Opel has a problem with tire color.

    Yeah the TVR has very very very very similar doors to the 818! Is that the same TVR featured in Swordfish movie?

    I think Flynn is right, the hood is very pointy.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
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  4. #84
    Senior Member Blwalker105's Avatar
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    mikeford & flynntuna, I now think I know what you meant by either bringing the A-pillar down, or the fender up, to create something kind of like the Audi or the WRX pictures that Craig posted. Truth is, once I saw the elegance of that extended fender line going all the way back, kind of like the TVR t350, I stopped thinking about any other alternatives. I had never seen a t350 before, but the look kind of resonated with me, so I went with it. For anyone considering those other options, it should be no more difficult with the exception of the possibility of the metal A-pillar structural support being in closer proximity to the blend line the farther up the pillar you go. Bringing the A-pillar down would definitely be a more doable option. My hood points, while appearing very delicate, are anything but. I had already built-up the under structure by filling it with reinforced resin and 3 plies of fiberglass to point about 4" back from the points; the white filler above is reinforced with milled fiberglass so it is quite strong but I even glassed over this so the final effort would probably be stronger than the factory points.

  5. #85
    Mechie3's Avatar
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    Having seen Bill's pieces in person, I'd wager they're stronger than the original FFR pieces because of how he constructed them.
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  6. #86
    Senior Member Blwalker105's Avatar
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    Hang with me, everyone, I'm working on a post to help anyone interested in modifying their coupe fenders.

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  8. #87
    Senior Member Blwalker105's Avatar
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    I'm just about done with the fender point additions. I would like to encourage anyone wanting to attempt this mod that fiberglass work is a very forgiving medium and if you don't like your results, just grind them off and start over. If you are gutsy enough to build your own car, then this project is WELL within your reach.

    Unlike other more expensive mediums, fiberglass work is relatively cheap; you only need a few basic materials and products to be off and running. The real secret lies in the combinations of these goodies.

    Here is my list of the basic ingredients needed to complete any fiberglass project from these fender points, to hard point fillets, to panel layups. I get most of my supplies through USComposites.com (no affiliation) because it is almost one-stop shopping. The two exceptions are the adhesive-backed sheet wax which is used to create molds, dams and uniform panel gaps and the peel ply. Just go to eBay and search "Sheet Lining Wax for Carbon Fiber Molds". I recommend having 2 thicknesses: 1/16" and 1/8" inch. The thinner stuff is good for areas where you need minimum clearances and the thicker stuff is great for making uniform final panel gaps if you have to build-up surfaces for finish body work. A 12" x 24" sheet of each will probably last forever unless you do a lot of fiberglass work. Everything past the Peel Ply section is hardware store or Amazon available.



    Resin

    700 Vinyl Ester Resin - This product is similar to what F5 uses for the body itself. It is strong and very tolerant of mix ratios but has a relatively short shelf life of about 3 months, so don't buy large quantities. The recommended mix ratio IMO is inadequate: you will be waiting forever for it to cure. I use 16 drops hardener per half-ounce and it gives me about 30-45 minutes of working time. I give it a good long time to fully cure cause I hate clogging my sand paper. Plan on doing the 'glass work one day and sanding & shaping the next. You may have read about the addition of wax but I NEVER use it and see no reason to add the additional step of removing it later to prepare for more layups or body work. Wax is used to isolate the resined area of low-mass layups from the atmosphere to help them cure. If I have any areas that are still tacky 8 hrs or so later, I just use a heat gun to lightly warm (140-150 degrees F) them for about 4-5 minutes. In warmer climes, just placing them out in the sunlight for a couple hrs will get the job done.


    Fiberglass

    Style 7725 Highly Comformable Fiberglass Cloth - This is the best all-around cloth from my experience and I could probably make a pinkie ring for Barbie with it. There are probably places where thicker, hardware store stuff would work, but with this fabric, I just add layers for extra stiffness and strength. It's very lightweight so 2 or 3 plies will usually get the jobs done. Be advised that that more plies or layers you have, the less it wants to conform to tight radii. A couple yards will probably be more than enough for our projects.


    Modifiers

    Here is where the magic begins and the best part is that it is easy! I routinely use only 2 modifiers: 3M Glass Bubbles and 1/32" Milled Fibers. When I am making slurries or body fillers that have to be sanded down to existing gelcoat, these get the job done without having to resort to Cabosil as a thickener. Cab is great if you want something you can drill and tap later, but for our purposes it cures much harder than the surrounding gelcoat, making final sanding very difficult. The Bubbles and Milled Fiber mixes are easy to sand, shape and are very sturdy on their own. There were plenty of places on my plane where I simply sanded, primed and painted pretty large areas of these mixes and they held up to daily cruising speeds of 225 mph and +4 and -2 G's. (the plane could take +8 and -4, but the pilot couldn't :/). Stout stuff. More on mix ratios later. With these, you can also make the best body filler that money can't buy.



    Peel Ply

    This product isn't a strict necessity, but it makes for nicer layups by deleting the next sanding step in preparation for body work and it gets rid of those micro grams of extra resin. When cured, just peel it off and you will have a surface ready for body filler or additional layups without the need for any sanding. When doing layups, I simply cut pieces slightly larger than the resined area and apply them directly onto my wetted-out fiberglass as the top layer. Be sure to leave dry perimeters of at least 1" or you won't have anything to grab and peel. It can be found on eBay: something like "Airtech Econostitch Peel Ply 54" for about $4. Peel ply doesn't like to bend and shape itself around corners like the fiberglass, so you sometimes have to get tricky and cut relief slots and/or use multiple pieces to cover your layups. I also have to come back more often with my stipple brush to make sure the peel ply is staying attached to bends and corners until the resin starts to set up, but that is a small price to pay.


    Visqueen

    One of the first things I learned building my plane was how to prepare layups off-site and be able to carry them to the work area for attachment. If you've ever attempted to make multiple layer layups and transport them even 2 feet away, you will know it is almost impossible to have them keep their shape. The secret is to use a nice medium-to-heavy thickness Visqueen as the bottom and the top layers of your layup. More on this later.


    Chip Brushes

    I use 1" and 2" chip brushes from Amazon for wetting-out areas with resin and for stippling, then throw them away after each use. They are cheap enough to not have to hassle with cleaning them.


    Scissors

    Invest in a good, dedicated pair of scissors or shears. Fiberglass is tough on metal. Something like these: https://www.amazon.com/Wiss-W20-8-In...eywords=shears


    Painter's Tape

    Resin does not stick to either side of painter's tape, or wax paper, or anything greased or oiled, but will cure just fine while touching it. Use this to your advantage when making molds and dams for slurries.


    Stir Sticks

    Standard 1/16" stir stick/tongue depressors. Buy a big box for pennies. Use them for everything from the obvious uses to covering them in painter's tape for mold and dam sides, etc.


    That's about it for supplies. Stay tuned.

  9. #88
    Senior Member Blwalker105's Avatar
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    Fender Mod Procedures and General Fiberglass/Resin Techniques


    I am going to have to describe how I would have done some of this had I not opted to try it from the A-pillar down first, but here goes.


    A lot of what I do here involves the use of resin mixes and slurries, and some of it is just basic fiberglass techniques.


    Slurries and Fillers

    I use generic clear plastic cups for mixing my resins. For any size cups I buy, I always take one and successively fill it with 1/2 oz water and mark the level, then 1 oz water and mark the level, then 2 oz and so on to about 4 oz. Measure up from the bottom of the cup and record all the measurements. This way you can accurately mix your future resin/hardener blends without having to resort to a tiny measuring cup for each batch. For instance, if I want to use 1/2 oz resin, I use my calipers to measure up 0.3" and mark my fill line. If I want 1 oz, I measure up and mark 0.5". Since you may be new to these processes, I would suggest using 2 cups for each batch. Mix your initial resin/hardener batch in one, then transfer about 1/4 of that into the other cup. The first cup is where you will be blending your slurry and the second cup will be for thinning the first cup back down in case you thicken it with modifiers too much. Add modifiers in small amounts, as they will have very little effect at first, then a very big effect as you near your desired viscosity.

    For our purposes, we will concentrate on 4 basic viscosities: honey, honey/mayonnaise, mayonnaise, and peanut butter.

    Honey - useful for squeezing into voids, vertical holes and not much else. To each ounce of resin mix, I would aim for a ratio of 1 part Milled Fiberglass and 1 part Glass Bubbles: Start with a half teaspoon of each product, stir thoroughly and continue adding half teaspoons until reaching your desired viscosity.

    Honey/Mayonnaise - this is the in-between viscosity best suited for molds like the fender points. Same ratio as above, just mix a little thicker. You want it to be able to flow to the corners but not overflow the mold before you can get get painter's tape over it and it should look something like this.



    Mayonnaise - this consistency is useful for making your own high quality body filler, but be advised: 1 ounce of resin mix will make about 6 or 7 ounces of filler so don't mix up too much! For each ounce of resin mix, aim for a ratio of about 1 part Milled Fibers to 3 parts Glass Bubbles, half teaspoons full at a time. After a little practice, you won't need to go so slowly, but things thicken quickly toward the end. If you have vertical surfaces to fill, thicken a little more toward peanut butter.

    Peanut butter - this consistency is good for hard point fillets, vertical body fillers or free-forming.


    Do's and Dont's

    * Before adding any modifiers to your resin/hardener mix, brush some on every surface you want the slurry to adhere to. This will strengthen the chemical bond.
    * Do use painter's tape to keep slurry from flowing out of your mold. Just think of it as the mold's ceiling.
    * Never use any modifiers between layers of multi-ply layups...they will significantly weaken the structure. Resin only here.


    For starting the fender point mod, I would want to create a sheet-wax mold attached to the rear of the fender. I would first sand the upper rear of the fender area and the wheel well edges to allow the resin to bond with it; resin will not stick to any shiny surfaces very well. Then open the associated door all the way to it's stop and cut a piece of 1/16" wax sheet, sticky side up, to attach under the rear of the fender and form a nice gentle curve up over the door and continue under the a-pillar. This will be the floor of the mold. Now I would cut strips of wax sheet to form the rest of the mold's sides. Use painter's tape if necessary to keep everything together and seal up any corners. Make everything oversize now, cause you will sand it down to finished form later.
    Here are some pictures of what the basic mold would have looked like if you can ignore my already-formed points being there.





    Mix up a batch of slurry starting with an ounce of liquid. This should be enough for both fender points. Mix more if necessary. Pour into your molds and use tape if necessary to keep it in there. Let cure.
    Remove the wax and tape and carefully grind/sand them down to near your finished profiles. They're tougher than you think but use some caution. If you break one off, just epoxy it back on (kind of what I did) and keep going. You're going to be adding a lot of filler material toward the front of the fender so don't worry about perfection there. Do, however, try to be very precise in forming your new compound-curved wheel arch from the bottom of the points up to their trailing edge: this part will get fiberglass skin and not much filler. You should now have something like this.


  10. #89
    Senior Member Blwalker105's Avatar
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    Glassing the fender points

    Remove the fenders and place them so the area ready to glass is mostly horizontal. At this point, you can do one of two things: either apply the fiberglass directly onto the surface, one ply at a time or pre-make the layup and apply it as one piece. Either will work just fine. Sometimes, especially if you are doing long, thin layups you may want to choose the latter process, so I'll share it with you.
    First, make a paper template of the area you want to glass then transfer it to a piece of Visqueen that's at least 3" larger in each dimension then the template. Turn the Visqueen over so the marker's ink doesn't contaminate your resin and tape it to your work area. Cut out 2 or 3 plies of fiberglass fabric to match your template and prepare some resin mix. Use a chip brush to coat the inside of your template on the Visqueen (it will bead up quickly but don't worry), then add each ply, one at a time slightly staggering any edges that have to be sanded down to existing gelcoat areas. As each ply is applied, use your brush to press it down into the existing resin and coat it entirely. I was taught a "stippling" technique whereby one keeps the tip of the brush in contact with the fiberglass while bobbing the rest of the brush up and down and moving slowly along your work piece. After your last ply is thoroughly wetted-out, place another piece of Visqueen over the entire thing.
    Now, cut out your template area, carry it to the car, peel off whichever is going to be the bottom, place the layup down, then peel off the top. I have noticed that vinyl ester resin makes the Visqueen want to roll up more than epoxy resin, so stay with the thicker stuff. Be sure to clean your scissors and prep area with alcohol or acetone before it cures. You WILL forget the scissors sometime, but a razor blade will easily slice the cured resin off the next day.






    I left this layup long to help it pull down onto the curve of the fender lip, but it really wasn't necessary.

  11. #90
    Senior Member Blwalker105's Avatar
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    If you want to use Peel Ply, now is the time.







    The rest is pretty self-explanatory. You will need a fair amount of resin filler or body filler to build up the area in front of your points to get rid of the "ski jump" trailing edges of the points, and some filler to blend the lower A-pillar to your new area, but it should be pretty easy by then.

  12. #91
    Senior Member Blwalker105's Avatar
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    I decided to extend my A-Pillar down to better fit with the hood point, so yesterday I made up a quick mold and filled it in. Here's how it turned out.







    Good Luck and feel free to PM me if you need any specifics answered.

  13. #92
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    Thanks for doing this. I'm new to fiberglass, but I think I can follow along. Good work.

  14. #93
    Senior Member wleehendrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blwalker105 View Post
    Fender Mod Procedures and General Fiberglass/Resin Techniques]
    Awesome write-up. This NEEDS to be a sticky!

  15. #94
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Thanks! I have no fiberglass experience but now have to fix my triangle gap and a hole in the rear bumper due to changing my exhaust. Thanks!
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

  16. #95
    Senior Member Blwalker105's Avatar
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    Thanks all, that took most of yesterday afternoon. This is why my car is progressing so slowly! Lol

  17. #96
    Senior Member Canadian818's Avatar
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    What did you use to glue the stir sticks to the hood after you cut it? And how does it affect the gelcoat?
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  18. #97
    Senior Member Blwalker105's Avatar
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    Hot glue...easy to get off and it doesn't hurt a thing.

    The underside has a 3-ply, 3" wide layup along the entire length.

  19. #98
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    So you use sheet-wax to form molds? And these are sold at the same places where you buy resin?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
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  20. #99
    Ol Skool
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    Bill,

    This really should be a sticky. Extremely good info. Thanks for posting!

  21. #100
    Senior Member Blwalker105's Avatar
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    Frank, eBay. "Sheet Lining Wax for Carbon Fiber Molds"

  22. #101
    Senior Member Blwalker105's Avatar
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    And yes, that's how I form the molds and dams. The only thing to be careful of here is to use wax that is very thin, like 1/16" for the floor of this mold because you want as little height above your door as possible when it is in the opened position. The reason for this is to keep the finished height of the points as low as possible and not look like little ski jumps where you have to add a ton of filler to the A-pillars to visually match the interface.

    I use the 1/16" stuff for molds and the 1/8" stuff for final door gaps.
    Last edited by Blwalker105; 11-23-2016 at 09:56 AM.

  23. #102
    Senior Member flynntuna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erlihemi View Post
    Bill,

    This really should be a sticky. Extremely good info. Thanks for posting!
    I agree great info, here comes the but... I don't think the moderators will make a sticky of this thread with this title.
    If a new thread was started with a different title and move everything from post 87 foward on to it, then it would make a great sticky or Wiki.

  24. #103
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Bill, thanks for the detailed description of fixing the tringle gaps, but before I started that project I thought I'd try reinstalling the new front fenders in hopes of closing the triangle gaps. I removed both front fenders and the grill piece, bolted the fenders to the grill, and the fenders to the side sails which is the only specific attachment point. By not attaching the front I was able to raise the front and pull the fenders back, in hopes of closing the triangle gaps. This worked on the driver side but not on the passenger side where the fender is shorter. I thought I was making progress but I had to move the fenders inward to close the triangle gap, which then made the fenders too close for the hood to fit, by nearly 3 inches. I then tried raising the center of the hood with a brace underneath to curve the hood reducing its width, but to make up the 3 inches the hood is so high it blocks vision and looks weird. So, after many hours I have learned that there is no solution other than extending the fenders with fiberglass, as Bill detailed, or cutting/patching/refinishing the hood as someone else did recently.

    I'm writing this in case you also are thinking of re-installing the new front fenders to solve the triangle gaps, so maybe this will save you the time trying. Tomorrow I'll put it all back the way it was with the hood fitting but with the triangle gaps . . . and plan on Bill's fender fabrication.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
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  25. #104
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    Thanks Pete!!

  26. #105
    Senior Member Blwalker105's Avatar
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    Thanks Pete. I can't tell you how many things I tried to no avail. In the end, after both the hood and fender mods were done with the front end at it's highest position, I loosened the front fender outriggers and diagonal braces to see if I could lower it. Surprise, it worked! I was able to get it down maybe 3/8" or so, with the only side effect being that the hood points are now a little tight to the A-pillars. Kind of strange, as one would think the opposite would occur. Like you found out, even with flexible stuff and working in 3-dimensions, sometimes you just can't get things to do what you want. Or worse, they do just the opposite.

  27. #106
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Now it is 6 months later - June 2017 - and I'm back studying Bill's tutorial so I can fix my A pillar gap and also fill a hole in the right rear bumper where my previous exhaust was. I also noticed that the newer hard top has fiberglass much further down the A pillar than mine:

    April 2017 hard top.jpg

    I think I'll try extending the A pillar like this 4/2017 version, then if that doesn't solve the gap I can extend the fender like Bill did. A least that's the plan . . . after I finish a few other projects, anyway. Don't ask for pics because I have no schedule and work slowly.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

  28. #107
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    Kinda wish I wasn't the first hardtop retrofitters... I'm just like you Pete. I was originally gonna work the fenders and gaps like in the other thread. But seeing this I might do this instead. I'm starting on body work for a end of summer paint job. I'll try to post photos as I go.

  29. #108
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    Glad to see they fix fixed things, but I'm rather frustrated with FFR about this because I called them talked to them on the phone they said they would help me out with this top issue if it was actually a "problem" with my top. Both sides were different lengths sounds like a problem to me. I was told they would help. I just need to email in pictures and proof(this was probably just to get me off the phone...). I did all that and of course I never got a single reply back. I have a bodywork friend who told me he can fix the problem. I know he can fix it better then I can, so that's my plan. Still be nice if FFR could email me back or send us a repair patch section idk say sorry its bad. I emailed back on 10/28 and again on 12/6 but of course nothing lol.
    Last edited by redfogo; 06-08-2017 at 02:38 PM.

  30. #109
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    Redfogo call them and talk to Courtnie, she's pretty good. If you get helped and then send something your way then maybe we can all get it.

  31. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by 07FIREBLADE View Post
    Redfogo call them and talk to Courtnie, she's pretty good. If you get helped and then send something your way then maybe we can all get it.
    The problem is you call you talk on the phone and then they ask for pictures of proof to get an idea of the problem you send the email with pictures then you get no response lol. I'm not sure about your top but on my top the left and the right side corner were cut to 2 different lengths one side it bad and the other side is super bad lol. So no matter were I put the fenders they cut my top back so far on one corner there is no way to hide anything. I forwarded my old emails to Courtney just now maybe she can get them to the right person. I have kinda gave up on trying for the fix but your suggestion made me remember to try again haha thanks

    I will post the pictures that I sent them when I get home
    http://imgur.com/a/6D5PP
    Last edited by redfogo; 06-08-2017 at 06:40 PM.

  32. #111
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    Looks mildly worse then mine. I had one of the first retrofits shipped. I had a similar problem with my inner door cards being different lengths. I was told that when they got correct ones they would send them to me but that was almost a year ago.

  33. #112
    Senior Member UnhipPopano's Avatar
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    It does not look like they [F5] have computer applications in place to track commitments and missing parts. You probably should send them monthly reminders asking if there is an update.

  34. #113
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    i'm at the very beginning stage of fiberglass work.

    what is being used to create the shape you went with prior to fiberglass?
    and is that wax strips used for the borders?'

    I guess I need help with the steps 1,2,3

  35. #114
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    I’m sorry I didn’t see the 3rd page with all the answers. lol

  36. #115
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    This is a great thread and great instructions. Has anyone thought about using or have used Urethane Foam.. Since there is no structural support needed wondering how it might work...

  37. #116
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    Does anyone have photos of this on an 818C to show how it looks where the fendor, door, and A pillar meets?

  38. #117
    Senior Member Blwalker105's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpforyou View Post
    Does anyone have photos of this on an 818C to show how it looks where the fendor, door, and A pillar meets?
    Look at post #44 on page 2 of this thread

  39. #118
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    Any photos completed? Maybe from a couple feet back as well as closeups?

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