BluePrint Engines

Visit our community sponsor

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 41

Thread: design of FFR fuel tank

  1. #1

    design of FFR fuel tank

    I am considering getting the Boyd tank cause I do not like the design of the FFR tank from a safety standpoint. Almost all fuel tanks I am aware of have the connections on top and where
    O rings are used to seal a flange, they are subject to fuel splash, not full immersion in fuel like the FFR design. anyone else bothered by this or can offer some advise since I have not seen
    tank yet for a closeup study.

  2. #2
    Moonlight Performance
    Hindsight's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    3,272
    There are two FFR tanks. One re-uses the Subaru pump assembly and secondary fuel level sensor. This style is fine to be immersed, and this is the newer design.

    My beef with the FFR tank is that it has no real effective baffling, and the filler neck attaches to the middle of the tank instead of to the top of the tank which makes filling it an exercise in frustration and spilled fuel, even if you had a large-diameter secondary fill breather like I did (which helps but doesn't fully solve the problem).

    I like the boyd tank and would buy it if I had it to do over again. It's inexpensive for what you get.

  3. #3
    The new ffr tank still has the filler neck entering near the bottom of the tank. A leak there would drain everything and dump it all right in front of or on top of the exhaust.

    The pump is also in the corner and my car has horrible slosh issues even as much as 2/3 full. If the boyd tank has proper pick-ups then it'd be a no-brainer to go with that.

  4. #4
    Senior Member TouchStone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    499
    Blog Entries
    1
    I was very unhappy with the FFR fuel tank. It leaked from day one, picked up air in the fuel lines under moderate acceleration and turning (which killed my fuel pump). I attempted to use Seal All to fix the leaking but it did not help at all. I used Seal All around the entire gasket area and then applied a second layer after it was installed. Turns out fuel was leaking underneath the power-coating. Worst of all the garbage man wont even take it.

    I had a custom tank made by Boyd that has an integrated a surge tank and fixes other issues with the fill tube, air vent, and fuel level sender. I even put in a sensor to detect if the surge tank is less than 100% full. Its easy to install and it works great!

    Last edited by TouchStone; 12-22-2016 at 05:36 PM.
    818S Chassis #288 2.5L 323hp
    Ordered: 9/19/14 Received Kit: 11/2/14 First Start: 5/31/15 First Drive: 6/7/15 Registered: 3/10/2016 Completed: 2/10/2017
    Status: Complete Build Thread Sold 9/22/2017

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Andover, MA
    Posts
    476
    Surely FFR is working on an improvement to rectify these issues? They already improved the tank design once, so if it is as compromised as people say I am sure they will release a further improvement. I just hope it is sooner rather than later! The issues being raised sound like reasonable criticisms.

    -Ben

  6. #6
    I wouldn't hold your breath. There is a constantly growing list of small-yet-significant issues with the 818 that FFR doesn't seem to want to address. I'm sure they'll get to it eventually, but it could be years.

    I could go on lengthy rant of all the design issues the car has but anyone who semi-regularly follows this forum is already aware of most of them. It'd be great if FFR would publish and keep updated a list of ongoing improvements (maybe even with a Reddit type up-vote system) so that we at least know somebody there is listening. As others have mentioned, it's not so much the issues themselves that bother me, it's that there is no acknowledgement of them, and a good deal of them could have been solved with a small amount of foresight in design and would have cost no more to implement properly the first time.

  7. #7
    Thanks everyone for the replies. Seems like a no brained to go to Boyd tank but
    it makes me mad to have to pay for a crappy design tank , then pay again to
    replace it. Why does not FFR monitor this site. They only seem to monitor the
    much less used FFR.com forum

  8. #8
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Cincinnati OH
    Posts
    3,287
    Quote Originally Posted by frankc5r View Post
    Thanks everyone for the replies. Seems like a no brained to go to Boyd tank but
    it makes me mad to have to pay for a crappy design tank , then pay again to
    replace it. Why does not FFR monitor this site. They only seem to monitor the
    much less used FFR.com forum
    Frankc5r,
    Before you jump to the Boyd standard 818 tank. Do your home work on what baffling it has to prevent fuel starvation during high g turns.
    The tank that Touchstone posted above, is not the typical Boyd tank.

    http://www.fueltankparts.com/replace...fuel-tank.html

    The description doesn't talk about any baffling for the $525 price.
    I know a lot of people went with this tank. I would like to hear how this tank is working out during aggressive high g turns.

    Touchstone, How much was your tank?
    Bob
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

  9. #9
    I believe if you call FFR and tell them not to include a tank they will take most of the cost off your bill.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by phil1734 View Post
    I believe if you call FFR and tell them not to include a tank they will take most of the cost off your bill.
    I did not take the FFR tank as part of my build when I picked up my kit and I got that amount refunded.

  11. #11
    Wish I'd have know this when I picked up my kit in July. I'm at the go cart stage and won't be getting much more done until after winter. My car has the "newer tank" and will only be used on the street. I'm tempted to go for the Boyd as it would be fairly easy to swap it in at this point. Just not sure yet. How many out there are satisfied with the stock FFR tank?

  12. #12
    Moonlight Performance
    Hindsight's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    3,272
    I talked with Boyd about their tank and they said it does have internal baffling, but warned it wasn't really intended for race-duty use. So, I would say their baffling is better than the FFR unit, and probably fine for street, but if you want to auto-cross or track it, I would strongly suggest a surge tank. The unfortunate thing is that all this really starts to add up. A fuel surge tank with pump is like $800 not counting the cost of all the hose and fittings you'll need. Add on another $525 for the Boyd tank and you are looking at around $1500, all said and done.

  13. #13
    [QUOTE=Bob_n_Cincy;261372]Frankc5r,
    Before you jump to the Boyd standard 818 tank. Do your home work on what baffling it has to prevent fuel starvation during high g turns.
    The tank that Touchstone posted above, is not the typical Boyd tank.

    Thanks. I may add baffling to my order. Pretty hard to add later. For street driving, a layer of the proper fuel cell foam on both sides of pump may retain enough fuel for typical turn but not a turn
    like carousel at Road America.

  14. #14
    Hmm, sounds like a hydromat might be sufficient for a street car as far as fuel slosh/starvation is concerned. plus a lot cheaper and easier. It won't fix the issue of the filler neck. Darn, more decisions. At least I have a few months of snow before I need to decide.

  15. #15
    Well I called to see about deleting the fuel tank and you can do it but you can't delete just the tank. You lose the system including the cap, tube , fittings and ground strap. You get a $210 credit.
    Don't care about piping etc cause I need to redo it with Boyd tank but do care about Fuel inlet/cap which is mounted on body for which they want $150 for a measly $60 net credit for tank. Be better
    off selling it to someone who wants a new style tank for more legroom. Ok , Tank For Sale!! (if you are not in a hurry)

  16. #16
    I see that Boyd has 2 extra options, a rollover vent which I should probably get and hope I never need it. Plus a fuel sending unit which I don't know if I will need. I'm guessing the factory sender in the FFR tank won't fit the Boyd. Is this correct and that I will need this as well. More $$$!

  17. #17
    Senior Member fastzrex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Oklahoma City
    Posts
    151
    TouchStone, is this custom Boyd built tank the same thickness as their standard Boyd replacement tank? If I wanted one similar, how could Boyd identify your design spec to duplicate? Approximate cost?

    Thanks!

    ~ Mark


    Quote Originally Posted by TouchStone View Post
    I was very unhappy with the FFR fuel tank. It leaked from day one, picked up air in the fuel lines under moderate acceleration and turning (which killed my fuel pump). I attempted to use Seal All to fix the leaking but it did not help at all. I used Seal All around the entire gasket area and then applied a second layer after it was installed. Turns out fuel was leaking underneath the power-coating. Worst of all the garbage man wont even take it.

    I had a custom tank made by Boyd that has an integrated a surge tank and fixes other issues with the fill tube, air vent, and fuel level sender. I even put in a sensor to detect if the surge tank is less than 100% full. Its easy to install and it works great!


  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Andover, MA
    Posts
    476
    It doesnt look like this tank will fit with the new firewall sheetmetal that gives the driver's seat additional rearward clearance, no? I assume this means custom firewall is also necessary to make this tank work?

    I have used the FFR OE gen2 tank, with all its warts. It would be nice to identify all the reasonable cost fixes that can be implemented to improve its function. From what I have read, these include:
    - addition of vent line up to fill pipe to allow improved vapor escape during fill. ($10 guesstimate, Question: who has documented a good solution to this?)
    - addition of Holley hydramat ($150-$200, need to spec. the best fitting version, I think I have read of someone implementing this with promising result?)

    Any other 'reasonable' improvements (i.e reasonable cost AND reasonable to implement?)

    -Ben
    -

  19. #19
    Ben, I'm with you on this plan, seem reasonable. I'm only 2 hours away from you and would like to compare notes and follow up on possible mods.

  20. #20
    Senior Member fastzrex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Oklahoma City
    Posts
    151
    Ben, thanks for your thoughts on this since you have already fitted the gen2 fuel tank. We just finished the donor disassembly and are deciding how to store the body components prior to real assembly and this is a good time to see everyone's input on the best way forward.

    ~ Mark



    Quote Originally Posted by ben1272 View Post
    It doesnt look like this tank will fit with the new firewall sheetmetal that gives the driver's seat additional rearward clearance, no? I assume this means custom firewall is also necessary to make this tank work?

    I have used the FFR OE gen2 tank, with all its warts. It would be nice to identify all the reasonable cost fixes that can be implemented to improve its function. From what I have read, these include:
    - addition of vent line up to fill pipe to allow improved vapor escape during fill. ($10 guesstimate, Question: who has documented a good solution to this?)
    - addition of Holley hydramat ($150-$200, need to spec. the best fitting version, I think I have read of someone implementing this with promising result?)

    Any other 'reasonable' improvements (i.e reasonable cost AND reasonable to implement?)

    -Ben
    -

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Andover, MA
    Posts
    476
    You are welcome to see what I have done and I can send photos as well. I am feeling my way through this project, definitely no expert! Just seems like there should be reasonable ways to make the FFR OE tank work well. Feel free to PM for anything I can help with.

    All things considered, the tank I have fits and integrates pretty nicely. That said, I have not driven the car much at all, so no performance testing! I'd hate to find out it quits in the corners!

    Anyone else have some good modifications to improve function? It would be nice to have them all in one thread.

    -Ben

    A link to Holley Hydramat....though I dont know which part will fit tank best given fuel pump and level sensor.:

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/h...FQ9WDQodIsYA5w

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Andover, MA
    Posts
    476
    https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...s/parts/16-203

    Seems like the 8" x 15" rectangle with the magnet mounting system would be straightforward to install. Or maybe even the 15" x 3" which is $135.

    I will post if/when I buy and install. Has anyone else installed hydramat?
    Last edited by ben1272; 12-24-2016 at 12:41 PM. Reason: changed 8"x3" to 8"x15"

  23. #23
    Senior Member fastzrex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Oklahoma City
    Posts
    151
    The hydramat sounds like a good idea no matter what is used as a fuel tank (except for those with an internal surge tank).

    A buddy of mine has a 'street' car with about a three gallon custom tank. During 'normal' uses, a hard launch caused a sudden power loss with an immediate return to power. After much work in reviewing his data, he saw a momentary fuel pressure drop during the power loss time. A hydramat in the fuel tank was the quick solution to the problem until he rebuilt his fuel tank.

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    QC, Canada
    Posts
    5,079
    Did FFR have that problem when they tested their concept 818?
    Also did they have it with the blue R while racing?

    If yes to any of the above, what is the solution they came up with?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  25. #25
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Cincinnati OH
    Posts
    3,287
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    Did FFR have that problem when they tested their concept 818?
    Also did they have it with the blue R while racing?

    If yes to any of the above, what is the solution they came up with?
    I believe most of the 818R testing was done with a fuel cell mounted in the passenger seat.
    To my knowledge, there has not been any comments by FFR addressing fuel starvation. We do know that FFR did put a baffle wall in the center of the Gen 2 818 Tank.
    Bob
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

  26. #26
    Moonlight Performance
    Hindsight's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    3,272
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    We do know that FFR did put a baffle wall in the center of the Gen 2 818 Tank.
    Bob
    The only problem is that the baffle is about 2" high and only on one side of the pickup. I'd love to see the baffles of the Boyd tank, to see if and how much better they are. But one thing to keep in mind is that if you are going to race in any competitive class, you are going to need a full-on Fuel Cell that is certified for use in whatever series you will race in. Think Fuel Safe, etc. Expensive, and you have to replace every 5 years.

  27. #27
    I'm wondering if it would work to put a bung on the sending unit cover( right next to the capped off pipe) to use for a vent line to the filler neck. It looks like there is room and it would eliminate the need to pull and drain the tank to install one on the tank. My welding isn't all that great, but I think I could manage on the sending cover and if I mess up at least that would be easy to replace. Any flaws in my idea?

  28. #28
    Moonlight Performance
    Hindsight's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    3,272
    That should work fine but the only issue is if you filled up and the car was at an angle. I haven't seen any filling stations that didn't have flat pavement so probably would never be an issue for you.

  29. #29
    Thanks, as long as I'm aware of the filling angle I can live with that. I think with the Hydromat and my venting setup, I should be good to go without springing for the Boyd.

  30. #30
    Moonlight Performance
    Hindsight's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    3,272
    Just remember that you will have to remove or smash the FFR baffle flat in order to use the hydramat, most likely. Also, you may want to extend the solid metal fuel return pipe that is part of the pump+bracket assembly so it dumps the fuel out right over the hydramat (as in: an inch or less over it) instead of dumping it out way up high toward the top of the tank (in cornering the stream will fall away from the hydramat).

  31. #31
    Thanks again, good ideas I hadn't thought of.

  32. #32
    That tank that Josh showed is one that I designed. Somewhere is a drawing floating around. Josh made a few changes to it. It is 1/8" aluminum I believe. I made the pump mounts for him and I as Boyd wanted a lot of money for a simple plate with a pump attached to it. It is designed to work with the old style firewall. I think the tank, alone, was $375. It includes internal baffles and mounts for check valves as well as a build in surge tank.
    Zero Decibel Motorsports
    Check out my new website!
    www.zerodecibelmotorsports.com
    www.facebook.com/zero.decibel.motorsports

  33. #33
    Found the thread where I discuss the design, costs, function, etc. The print is linked there too.

    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-Welding/page5
    Zero Decibel Motorsports
    Check out my new website!
    www.zerodecibelmotorsports.com
    www.facebook.com/zero.decibel.motorsports

  34. #34

  35. #35
    Senior Member fastzrex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Oklahoma City
    Posts
    151
    Thanks for digging this out again.

    In order to gain the space in the tank's dimension to allow moving the firewall rearward like the original Boyd tank design allows, is here any reason the internal surge baffle (as shown in your drawing) shouldn't be moved more to the center of the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechie3 View Post
    Found the thread where I discuss the design, costs, function, etc. The print is linked there too.

    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-Welding/page5
    ~ Mark

    818C S/N 429ES: Start Date 1 September 2016
    2001 NB Miata LS3 V8 440 rwhp
    2004 Miata MazdaSpeed Factory Turbo

  36. #36
    I just centered the baffle in the tank on the center of the main tank vs the center of the entire tank+ internal surge. It doesn't really matter all that much where it gets moved as the volume of the surge is quite large. You'd have to be making a turn for a very long time to run the surge dry and by then you'd likely have turned the other way and starting filling the surge back up.

    I think Tony had a fuel cell made (FFRspec72).
    Zero Decibel Motorsports
    Check out my new website!
    www.zerodecibelmotorsports.com
    www.facebook.com/zero.decibel.motorsports

  37. #37
    Hi everyone! Bumping this thread up, I was wondering if anyone has tried using the hydramat in a Boyd standard tank yet? I saw Ben talking about the possibility of using it in a different tank. I finally decided to look at tank ideas after getting angry at never knowing my fuel level haha. I have had okay success in the autocross world so far on the first design FFR tank. No issues to speak of as long as it has been kept full. My friend and I were even able to get out on the track at road America for a familiarity run with a club, (speed was limited but still got going pretty fast in a lot of spots) didn't have any issues with fuel starvation. I'm sure at fuel speed though, things could have gone differently. But all in all, still trying to find a decent tank without spending 2k on something. Anyone find anything further?

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by philly15 View Post
    Hi everyone! Bumping this thread up, I was wondering if anyone has tried using the hydramat in a Boyd standard tank yet? I saw Ben talking about the possibility of using it in a different tank. I finally decided to look at tank ideas after getting angry at never knowing my fuel level haha. I have had okay success in the autocross world so far on the first design FFR tank. No issues to speak of as long as it has been kept full. My friend and I were even able to get out on the track at road America for a familiarity run with a club, (speed was limited but still got going pretty fast in a lot of spots) didn't have any issues with fuel starvation. I'm sure at fuel speed though, things could have gone differently. But all in all, still trying to find a decent tank without spending 2k on something. Anyone find anything further?
    I am surprised to hear you didn't have any issue with the 1st FFR tank. I have a 1st gen FFR tank, and it seems pretty much terrible... I have major power loss around corners, and even when it is 2/3 full under hard acceleration, I still experience full power loss. Couple this with one of my fuel level sensors failing, I am for sure going with the Boyd tank... just a matter of time. I will be trying to utilize the Holly Hydramat as well, as I am trying to prevent power loss while merely street-driving.

  39. #39
    I had major slosh/starvation problems on the track with a modified version of the new FFR tank. I had added some baffling and sponge to try to control it, but it was not enough with that long, skinny tank. I'm just wrapping up my new tank setup. I went with a somewhat narrow/tall 12 gallon tank from rhodes race cars with hydramat to try to fix corner starvation. It fits on the passenger side up against the new rear firewall.

    I'm working on covers for all of this now.

    FuelTank_sml.jpg

    Skip

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by lclevert View Post
    I had major slosh/starvation problems on the track with a modified version of the new FFR tank. I had added some baffling and sponge to try to control it, but it was not enough with that long, skinny tank. I'm just wrapping up my new tank setup. I went with a somewhat narrow/tall 12 gallon tank from rhodes race cars with hydramat to try to fix corner starvation. It fits on the passenger side up against the new rear firewall.

    I'm working on covers for all of this now.

    FuelTank_sml.jpg

    Skip
    Skip, that looks like a great solution! Unfortunately, for 818S guys - we can't go that route. I would have preferred a front-mounted fuel tank that is a larger square... I have seen other do this on the boards here. The long rectangle just creates WAY too much sloshing (and starvation) around corners...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

AJW

Visit our community sponsor