what does it take to install coyote

[mikepward]

So, I see these mustang coyote motors on eBay for reasonable prices with low miles from wrecks.

What else should I budget for a MKIV build to wire the motor stand alone. I see ford power packs for like $2k, is there anyone reworking the factory harness for stand alone (I've used several LS1's in other projects and always had factory harness and ECM reworked and flashed for $3-500.

Also I see people swapping out oil pans. Whats wrong with factory oil pan?

I also see a lot of discussion about expensive power steering conversions, whats wrong with the factory unit?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Mike

[2bking]

Unless you get the PCM from the car the engine came from you will have trouble making it run. Ford Racing offers a Controls pack that has the necessary harness and power distribution module along with the O2 sensors and throttle control module that will hook up to any motor. So far there are two versions of the Coyote, pre 2015 and 2015 and later, and will require the correct Controls pack to hook up. FFR provides the instructions for integrating the Coyote Controls pack harness with the kit supplied wiring harness. They also have a shopping list of other components needed such as air intake plumbing and fuel pressure regulators that you can find in their parts catalogue.

The oil pans need to be switch to get the ground clearance needed and keep the oil pan even or above the frame rails.

When you buy the crate engine it comes without accessories such as AC and alternator. I'm not an Mustang expert but I think the Coyote powered Mustangs used an electric power steering pump and some builders use an aftermarket one while others prefer the engine mounted one. I don't think Ford offers the brackets and pump for the Coyote hence the use of the expensive after market ones. If an AC compressor is used, it is mounted on the passenger side toward the lower part of the block thus forcing a power steering pump to be mounted on the front of the engine. There are some brackets available to mount a power steering pump where the AC compressor goes.

[edwardb]

I can't add too much to what King said. Pretty much nailed it. As stated, very important to know which version of the Coyote you're buying. There are significant differences and the electronics aren't compatible. The referenced controls pack (around $1500) includes everything necessary for either version including wiring harness, PCM, power distribution, O2 sensors, etc. Just have to get the right one. I've read a little about efforts to get these engines running with the donor PCM, harness, etc. Maybe some are getting it to work, but not something I personally would try. Another major difference is the crate version of the Coyote uses a return style fuel system where the factory installations use a returnless setup. There are aftermarket electronics possibilities (AEM Infinity is one) but for me personally the Ford Performance controls pack route is what I chose.

Also maybe you're aware there are Mustang versions of the Coyote and also F150 (truck) versions. Both have been used for builds. But there are differences. Mainly different cams and lower compression for the F150 version. It's designed for more torque. But a completely viable option.

Regarding power steering, King is right. There are no factory options for engine driven power steering with a Coyote. All factory installations use electric power steering. Ford Performance sells a bracket that allows an older mod motor pump to be used. There are various other aftermarket possibilities, including Mike Forte, and KRC (the one I'm using). Factory Five also has a Coyote PS option that I believe also uses a mod motor pump. As mentioned, if you're thinking about A/C, then that enters into the discussion because the A/C pump is on the same side of the engine where the PS pump is usually installed. Of course there are other options for PS. Electrically driven pumps are available. There's also the possibility to put the assist directly on the steering shaft. Not sure how that would fit in the already tight engine bay with a Coyote though.

You don't mention which Factory Five build you're considering. Roadster, 33 Hot Rod, Coupe. Each has some differences. My experience is with a Roadster. Check my #8674 build thread for my experience with installing a 2015 Coyote crate in a Roadster. Link is in my signature line.

Getting the Ford Performance and Factory Five Coyote installation instructions are another good source of information. The latest ones from Factory Five have both the previous and new Coyote versions included.

[H R Lucky]

Mike,
The reason you need to get the controls pack from Ford is because the original ECM has an anti-theft circuit which to the best of my knowledge has not been defeated by any tuners yet, the anti-theft is tied to the VIN of the original vehicle. ( ask me how I know) I thought i had saved a chunk of money when I bought my Coyote engine out of a wrecked mustang, I got all of the wiring harness's & the ECM but it wouldn't work so I had to purchase a controls pack from Ford for a crate motor which does not have the anti-theft feature. If you are building a roadster the oil pan needs to be swapped because the stock one will scrape the ground so you need a shallower one.

Nevin

[11markgibson]

Does anyone know if a GT350 motor would work in a FF car?

[11markgibson]

They have such a great sound. That would be interesting...

[charlesshoults]

Ok, so I've got to ask. It's said that a crate engine and PCM does not include the anti-theft circuit that is included as part of the system when taken from a vehicle. It seems to me like an anti-theft circuit would be a pretty handy thing to have. If a person buys a crate engine and harness, is there a good way to regain that functionality?

[2bking]

Ok, so I've got to ask. It's said that a crate engine and PCM does not include the anti-theft circuit that is included as part of the system when taken from a vehicle. It seems to me like an anti-theft circuit would be a pretty handy thing to have. If a person buys a crate engine and harness, is there a good way to regain that functionality?

The Ford Racing PCM has been dumbed down to include only the functions necessary to run the engine and cooling fan. It doesn't check VIN codes. I assume you could use a PCM from another vehicle and have a Ford dealership program the PCM so it would control the crate engine. I suspect it would be constantly throwing codes because of inputs it is looking for from equipment that is absent. A call to Ford Racing should answer all your questions.

[edwardb]

Ok, so I've got to ask. It's said that a crate engine and PCM does not include the anti-theft circuit that is included as part of the system when taken from a vehicle. It seems to me like an anti-theft circuit would be a pretty handy thing to have. If a person buys a crate engine and harness, is there a good way to regain that functionality?

As King said, PATS (Passive Anti-Theft System) is one of many things that are disabled in the Coyote crate PCM. In production cars, it's tied to the VIN, and one of the reasons why OE PCM's don't like to be used anywhere but the car they were born in. There are a number of ways to address security concerns. Personally I would look somewhere else other than the Coyote crate PCM.

[Dave Howard]

Ok, so I've got to ask. It's said that a crate engine and PCM does not include the anti-theft circuit that is included as part of the system when taken from a vehicle. It seems to me like an anti-theft circuit would be a pretty handy thing to have. If a person buys a crate engine and harness, is there a good way to regain that functionality?

I'm not concerned with NOT having anti theft functionality with my crate Coyote. The battery disconnect is coupled to my roadster keychain and the keys go with me everywhere. Besides, if a pro wants the car, he's going to get it one way or another. I've had no issues after countless nights parked outside small town motels and big city hotels. Good insurance coverage will put your mind at ease if you have any theft worries.

[boBQuincy]

I am looking for a Coyote for my planned Gen 3 Coupe and talked with Ford Performance yesterday. They told me the 2015 and up F-150 engines will not work with the controls pack, it has to be a Mustang engine. They also said it would be next to impossible to use the original F-150 PCM. I was leaning toward the F-150 engine so it would have to be 2014 or older.

boB

[boBQuincy]

The big problem with using the Ford controls pack with the 2015+ F-150 Coyote appears to be that Ford changed the firing order from that in the Mustang engine. Some tuners can apparently change the programming to correct that but...

couldn't the connectors for the fuel injectors and the ignition coils be moved to the appropriate places to provide the correct firing order?

[edwardb]

The big problem with using the Ford controls pack with the 2015+ F-150 Coyote appears to be that Ford changed the firing order from that in the Mustang engine. Some tuners can apparently change the programming to correct that but...

couldn't the connectors for the fuel injectors and the ignition coils be moved to the appropriate places to provide the correct firing order?

Technically I don't know if that would work or not. What impact, if any, it would have on other sensors, programs, cam phasing, etc. I just don't know. But from a pure wiring aspect, it would take a re-wire of some sort. The pigtails attached to each coil-on-plug and injector are very short and purpose made for each location.

[Dave Howard]

Technically I don't know if that would work or not. What impact, if any, it would have on other sensors, programs, cam phasing, etc. I just don't know. But from a purely mechanical aspect, it would take a re-wire of some sort. The pigtails attached to each coil-on-plug and injector are very short and purpose made for each location.

Not to mention a mechanical change to the valve timing.

[q4stix]

Does anyone know if a GT350 motor would work in a FF car?

Assuming you could get your hands on one, you'd need the ECU from the car or a stand alone ECU like the AEM Infinity. Dimensionally it should work.

[q4stix]

The big problem with using the Ford controls pack with the 2015+ F-150 Coyote appears to be that Ford changed the firing order from that in the Mustang engine. Some tuners can apparently change the programming to correct that but...

couldn't the connectors for the fuel injectors and the ignition coils be moved to the appropriate places to provide the correct firing order?

I've emailed both SCT and DiabloSport about changing the firing order on the FRCP ECU and both responded as if they had no idea what I was referring to. Even when they looked over the other thread (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...engine-harness), there was no direct response on their capability to change the firing order, just the tables within the tune. Not saying it isn't possible with them, but I couldn't find someone in their company that knew about that capability.

An F-150 Coyote can be used with the controls pack if you swap out the cams with the Mustang GT ones (see the other thread for this info too). A tune will pretty much be necessary anyway due to the change in intake and exhaust of a Factory Five kit even if you use a crate engine. The tune will be able to compensate for the .5 lower compression.

I also answered your question of the wiring change in the other thread.
Good luck with everything whichever way you choose!

[edwardb]

Not to mention a mechanical change to the valve timing.

The question was about a newer F150 Coyote which apparently has different timing. The cams would already be different than the Mustang cams. But as I stated, I personally have no idea if it would really work. My response was only to point out that the wiring itself would have to be redone. It's not a like a SBF where you can just unplug wires and move them around when switching from a standard cam to an HO cam.

Assuming you could get your hands on one, you'd need the ECU from the car or a stand alone ECU like the AEM Infinity. Dimensionally it should work.

There are a couple builds on the other forum using the GT350 engine. Pretty awesome actually. But there were some chassis mods involved. I don't think real extensive, but it's not a drop-in. If you search over there you should find them. There also was a new GT350 engine for sale. Maybe is still available. I checked a couple months ago, and the Ford Racing harness and PCM control pack looks like it's still available.

[q4stix]

There are a couple builds on the other forum using the GT350 engine. Pretty awesome actually. But there were some chassis mods involved. I don't think real extensive, but it's not a drop-in. If you search over there you should find them. There also was a new GT350 engine for sale. Maybe is still available. I checked a couple months ago, and the Ford Racing harness and PCM control pack looks like it's still available.

Interesting, I hadn't seen an actual GT350 build ('Voodoo' with a flat plane crank). I have GT350 heads and I know there is a new 5.2L "GT350 style" crate engine but with the same cross plane crank and firing order as in the Mustang GT, but that's all I'm aware of. Ford has said specifically that they won't sell the engine out of the GT350. It's only listed on Ford parts web sites for owners and lists between $18,000 and 20,000 for the setup.
Can you link to the threads you found so I can take a look at what I missed?

[edwardb]

Interesting, I hadn't seen an actual GT350 build ('Voodoo' with a flat plane crank). I have GT350 heads and I know there is a new 5.2L "GT350 style" crate engine but with the same cross plane crank and firing order as in the Mustang GT, but that's all I'm aware of. Ford has said specifically that they won't sell the engine out of the GT350. It's only listed on Ford parts web sites for owners and lists between $18,000 and 20,000 for the setup.
Can you link to the threads you found so I can take a look at what I missed?

Sorry. Bad info. What I remembered seeing was actually a GT500. Not the newer GT350 with the flat plane crank. Memory (or not...) is a wonderful thing. Here are some links FWIW. Searching will probably find a few more.

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/19-part...brand-new.html
http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-fact...-up-video.html
http://www.ffcars.com/forums/45-ford...ct-update.html

[boBQuincy]

Thanks, it is probably worth a try since at the worst I have to install Mustang cams and then it will work ok.

I've emailed both SCT and DiabloSport about changing the firing order on the FRCP ECU and both responded as if they had no idea what I was referring to. Even when they looked over the other thread (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...engine-harness), there was no direct response on their capability to change the firing order, just the tables within the tune. Not saying it isn't possible with them, but I couldn't find someone in their company that knew about that capability.

An F-150 Coyote can be used with the controls pack if you swap out the cams with the Mustang GT ones (see the other thread for this info too). A tune will pretty much be necessary anyway due to the change in intake and exhaust of a Factory Five kit even if you use a crate engine. The tune will be able to compensate for the .5 lower compression.

I also answered your question of the wiring change in the other thread.
Good luck with everything whichever way you choose!