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Thread: Help with first start

  1. #1
    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    Help with first start

    To start with, I have the Ron Francis chassis harness along with the Ron Francis EFI front harness for the 5.0 HO. I can hear the fuel pump working. I heard fuel in the rail. When I pulled a spark plug, no fuel was getting into the cylinder and it was dry. The engine was turning for a while, but never caught. After a short time the battery died. I tried to jump the car, but that didn't work. I am a little unsure about whereto I have a bad battery, alternator, or starter. And then after that I am unsure as to why I wasn't getting any fuel. Any thoughts?
    5.0 HO from a '93 Mustang, SVE heads, Trickflow stage 1 cam, Trickflow Street Burner intake manifold, T-5 w/mid shift, IRS
    Delivery 9-10-16, First Start 12-28-16, First Go-Kart 2-18-17
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Walt's Avatar
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    Make sure you have your fuel lines hooked up correctly you reverse them she will not run ,ask me how I know.

  3. #3
    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    haha, ok will do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Make sure you have your fuel lines hooked up correctly you reverse them she will not run ,ask me how I know.
    5.0 HO from a '93 Mustang, SVE heads, Trickflow stage 1 cam, Trickflow Street Burner intake manifold, T-5 w/mid shift, IRS
    Delivery 9-10-16, First Start 12-28-16, First Go-Kart 2-18-17
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...MK4-8951-Build

  4. #4
    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    Ok, I got it to kick, but my battery ran out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlosnj1UF6Q

    I am charging the jumper pack and will try again tomorrow.
    5.0 HO from a '93 Mustang, SVE heads, Trickflow stage 1 cam, Trickflow Street Burner intake manifold, T-5 w/mid shift, IRS
    Delivery 9-10-16, First Start 12-28-16, First Go-Kart 2-18-17
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...MK4-8951-Build

  5. #5
    2bking's Avatar
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    Obviously the battery needs a full charge but the back fire in the exhaust seems to indicate the timing is off. If so, most likely it's 180 degrees out. It's a typical mistake because when the alignment marks on the timing chain and sprocket are aligned, it's the beginning of the intake stroke on cylinder one.
    King
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  6. #6
    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    If I am reading this right, the way to fix that is to rotate the cam 180 degrees in relation to the crank - right?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2bking View Post
    Obviously the battery needs a full charge but the back fire in the exhaust seems to indicate the timing is off. If so, most likely it's 180 degrees out. It's a typical mistake because when the alignment marks on the timing chain and sprocket are aligned, it's the beginning of the intake stroke on cylinder one.
    5.0 HO from a '93 Mustang, SVE heads, Trickflow stage 1 cam, Trickflow Street Burner intake manifold, T-5 w/mid shift, IRS
    Delivery 9-10-16, First Start 12-28-16, First Go-Kart 2-18-17
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...MK4-8951-Build

  7. #7
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    No, 180 out usually refers to the distributor being timed to the incorrect TDC of the crank. IE. the crank tdc fires #1 plug every other crank rotation.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
    No, 180 out usually refers to the distributor being timed to the incorrect TDC of the crank. IE. the crank tdc fires #1 plug every other crank rotation.
    That sounds about right. I was doing some research and I realized I never found TDC. I was thinking that I would set the timing with the timing light after it was running. A serious Newbie mistake!
    Either way, I am VERY glad I don't need to remove the cam!
    5.0 HO from a '93 Mustang, SVE heads, Trickflow stage 1 cam, Trickflow Street Burner intake manifold, T-5 w/mid shift, IRS
    Delivery 9-10-16, First Start 12-28-16, First Go-Kart 2-18-17
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...MK4-8951-Build

  9. #9
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lahrs37 View Post
    That sounds about right. I was doing some research and I realized I never found TDC. I was thinking that I would set the timing with the timing light after it was running. A serious Newbie mistake!
    Either way, I am VERY glad I don't need to remove the cam!
    You do need to set the timing once it's running. But it needs to be in the ballpark to begin with. When you're finding TDC for #1, you need to make sure you're on the compression stroke and not the exhaust stroke. Easy enough to do either by watching the rocker arm/valve actions or you can feel the compression with your thumb over the sparkplug hole. Once you're at the right TDC, you should see the timing marks lining up. Then set your distributor rotor to be pointing at #1. Usually that will get you started.

    BTW, if your cam was somehow not timed properly to the crank (called degreeing the cam) it's not necessary to actually remove the cam. But it is a pretty major teardown of the water pump and front timing cover and adjusting via the sprocket on the cam and chain linking it to the crank.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    You do need to set the timing once it's running. But it needs to be in the ballpark to begin with. When you're finding TDC for #1, you need to make sure you're on the compression stroke and not the exhaust stroke. Easy enough to do either by watching the rocker arm/valve actions or you can feel the compression with your thumb over the sparkplug hole. Once you're at the right TDC, you should see the timing marks lining up. Then set your distributor rotor to be pointing at #1. Usually that will get you started.

    BTW, if your cam was somehow not timed properly to the crank (called degreeing the cam) it's not necessary to actually remove the cam. But it is a pretty major teardown of the water pump and front timing cover and adjusting via the sprocket on the cam and chain linking it to the crank.
    That is super helpful! Thanks! The only question I have at this point is how do you know which way your distributor rotor is facing? Do you take the cap off and physically pioint the rotor at the contact for cylinder 1? (I might have answered my own question there)
    5.0 HO from a '93 Mustang, SVE heads, Trickflow stage 1 cam, Trickflow Street Burner intake manifold, T-5 w/mid shift, IRS
    Delivery 9-10-16, First Start 12-28-16, First Go-Kart 2-18-17
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...MK4-8951-Build

  11. #11
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lahrs37 View Post
    That is super helpful! Thanks! The only question I have at this point is how do you know which way your distributor rotor is facing? Do you take the cap off and physically pioint the rotor at the contact for cylinder 1? (I might have answered my own question there)
    Yes. Remove the cap and note the position of the rotor at #1 TDC. SBF's typically have the #1 post at about 11:00 if your plug wires are the typical configuration. Although it's not mandatory for it to be that way.
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  12. #12
    Out Drivin' Gumball's Avatar
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    You need to make sure that the No.1 cylinder is at TDC, meaning the piston is at the top of it's travel. That's easy to do by pulling the plug from that cylinder and putting your finger on it, then bumping the engine over until you feel pressure in the cylinder. The timing marks on the balancer will also get you close, but will be in the range of 6 - 10 before TDC if set correctly when installed. The problem, though, as pointed out above, is that unless you have the valve cover of and can see the valve actuation, you won't know if you're at TDC on the compression stroke - i.e., when the valves are both closed and the spark is supposed to fire in that cylinder - or if you're TDC on the exhaust stroke - i.e., when the exhaust valve is opened and expelling gasses. If you're rotor is pointing to the No.1 cylinder at TDC (or within 6 - 10 degrees before TDC) on the exhaust stroke, then it's what is referred to as 180 degrees out of phase.

    So, make sure you find TDC on the compression stroke and then have the rotor pointing to the cap terminal that has the No.1 spark plug wire. For first start, go with that measurement of 6 - 10 degrees before TDC on the balancer as indicated by the timing mark and you should be good to go.

    Best of luck!!!!!
    Later,
    Chris

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  13. #13
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    You have efi, so everything I have read says it does matter how the distributor is oriented. My info says the #1 should be at your 1 oclock as you look at the engine from the front of the car. Google '91 (or whatever year your engine/efi is) mustang distributor position' to get some details. To back up a bit in general. W/ a carb engine, if you are out by 180 degrees, you could just rotate the dist 180 deg. Might run into clearance w/ the vac unit on the dist but otherwise could just rotate it. On an efi engine, the position matters. Also, in reality, this is a colossal pain in the a$$. You will be pulling the dist out of the engine, moving the rotor a little, and sticking it back in. Problem is the oil pump drive shaft has 6 sides and the gear has a different number of teeth. So you stick it back in and it engages the gear, and goes, goes, goes, and stops...... short of fully down because it hit the pump shaft which is not aligned now. So now you rotate the pump shaft a little. Yeah, this can easily take you 20 minutes. Best wishes for a quick alignment.
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  14. #14
    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    Swing and a miss. I thought I got the timing right, but maybe not. https://youtu.be/s-sOqdlXFLU

    Also, I recommend only watching the first 2 minutes or so.
    Last edited by lahrs37; 12-27-2016 at 09:53 PM.
    5.0 HO from a '93 Mustang, SVE heads, Trickflow stage 1 cam, Trickflow Street Burner intake manifold, T-5 w/mid shift, IRS
    Delivery 9-10-16, First Start 12-28-16, First Go-Kart 2-18-17
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...MK4-8951-Build

  15. #15
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    Although it did sound like turning the distributor was having an effect on the engine trying to run, with the factory harness, you have to remove the spout connector to change the ignition timing. Not for sure, if the coil needs to grounded.
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  16. #16
    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    So I had another go at it tonight. I tried finding top dead center by feeling for the puff of air. Then I inserted a long skinny screwdriver and turned the engine over by hand until it was at the top it's dwell. I set rotor in the cap to point at the #1 spark plug wire. With a of that (done 3 times over) I still need to rotate the distributor as far clockwise as it can go for it to seem like it might catch. At that position the engine will chug 2 or 3 times, but never catches. My guess at this point is that I messed something when aligning the cam and crank. Looks like I will be tearing down the front of my engine this weekend.
    5.0 HO from a '93 Mustang, SVE heads, Trickflow stage 1 cam, Trickflow Street Burner intake manifold, T-5 w/mid shift, IRS
    Delivery 9-10-16, First Start 12-28-16, First Go-Kart 2-18-17
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...MK4-8951-Build

  17. #17

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    1. When you installed the timing chain, did you align the marks on the crank sprocket with the cam sprocket? (Most Have Dots On Both)
    2. If you did, then you now need to locate TDC by turning the crank by hand (pull all the plugs to make it easy) and feel for the compression to build as you turn the crank by sticking your finger in the #1 spark plug hole..
    3. You may also want to remove the valve cover on that cylinder head so that you can watch your intake and exhaust valves rocker arms to help guide you.
    4. The intake will be open on the down stroke of the compression cycle and will be closed on the upstroke.
    NOTE: Remember it takes two complete rotations to complete one full cycle since this is a 4 stroke engine.
    5. If the exhaust valve opens, then you are on the exhaust stroke so you need to keep turning and watch what the rocker arms are doing because it will really help.
    6. Keep turning it by hand until you are on on the compression side of the stroke and you'll feel the pressure build as the piston comes back up to TDC.
    7. It should now have pushed your finger out of the #1 spark plug hole while you were turning it.
    8. Watch the timing mark on the balancer and stop when your are at ZERO degrees on the pointer/indicator.
    9. Reinstall the distributor and you may have to turn the oil pump shaft a little in order to align it with the distributor.
    10. It will keep the distributor from seating all the way if you don't get the bottom of the distributor gear aligned with the oil pump drive shaft.

    NOTE:
    You may have to play with it a while to get the rotor aligned with the #1 spark plug terminal, oil pump shaft and distributor in the correct orientation.

    https://youtu.be/N2y77vEKorI

    Hope This Helps!


    Steve
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 12-28-2016 at 09:11 PM.

  18. #18
    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post
    1. When you installed the timing chain, did you align the marks on the crank sprocket with the cam sprocket? (Most Have Dots On Both)
    2. If you did, then you now need to locate TDC by turning the crank by hand (pull all the plugs to make it easy) and feel for the compression to build as you turn the crank by sticking your finger in the #1 spark plug hole..
    3. You may also want to remove the valve cover on that cylinder head so that you can watch your intake and exhaust valves rocker arms to help guide you.
    4. The intake will be open on the down stroke of the compression cycle and will be closed closed on the upstroke.
    NOTE: Remember it takes two complete rotations to complete one full cycle since this is a 4 stroke engine.
    5. If the exhaust valve opens, then you are on the exhaust stroke so you need to keep turning and watch what the rocker arms are doing because it will really help.
    6. Keep turning it by hand until you are on on the compression side of the stroke and you'll feel the pressure build as the piston comes back up to TDC.
    7. It should now have pushed your finger out of the #1 spark plug hole while you were turning it.
    8. Watch the timing mark on the balancer and stop when your are at ZERO degrees on the pointer/indicator.
    9. Reinstall the distributor and you may have to turn the oil pump shaft a little in order to align it with the distributor.
    10. It will keep the distributor from seating all the way if you don't get the bottom of the distributor gear aligned with the oil pump drive shaft.

    NOTE:
    You may have to play with it a while to get the rotor aligned with the #1 spark plug terminal, oil pump shaft and distributor in the correct orientation.

    https://youtu.be/N2y77vEKorI

    Hope This Helps!


    Steve
    That is SUPER helpful. I am going to stop trying to start it until I have some real time this weekend to properly go through that process. For what it's worth, I did get it to catch for about 30 seconds: https://youtu.be/_sYwtkvsep4
    5.0 HO from a '93 Mustang, SVE heads, Trickflow stage 1 cam, Trickflow Street Burner intake manifold, T-5 w/mid shift, IRS
    Delivery 9-10-16, First Start 12-28-16, First Go-Kart 2-18-17
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...MK4-8951-Build

  19. #19

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    C_O_N_G_R_A_T_U_L_A_T_I_O_N_S_!

    I think you are really on your way & far ahead of me.
    Haven't had much time to swing wrenches since we put the motor in back in September.
    Hope to get back to working on it this weekend.

    https://youtu.be/3f1Q4aS5SG4

    Steve
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 12-28-2016 at 09:17 PM.

  20. #20
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Well it was running but doesn't really sound right. Just sticking a screwdriver in the sparkplug hole isn't definitive. You could still be at the top but on the exhaust stroke. On the other hand, if you're not getting a strong push of compression against your thumb either time the piston is at the top, then maybe the cam isn't timed right. I agree with the suggestion to take off the valve cover and watch the valves work as you're turning the engine over. You should be able to see all four strokes and the intake and exhaust valves operating at the right time based on piston position. At that point, you probably want all eight sparkplugs out so you can turn it over by hand more easily with a socket on the harmonic balancer bolt.

    So you installed the cam? How did you confirm it was timed properly? Did you use a degree wheel?
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  21. #21

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    So you installed the cam? How did you confirm it was timed properly? Did you use a degree wheel?
    Sir Edward Is Spot On So.................

  22. #22
    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    Thanks!!!!

    Your build looks awesome! I definitely could have used 2 extra hands when I put my engine in.



    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post
    C_O_N_G_R_A_T_U_L_A_T_I_O_N_S_!

    I think you are really on your way & far ahead of me.
    Haven't had much time to swing wrenches since we put the motor in back in September.
    Hope to get back to working on it this weekend.

    https://youtu.be/3f1Q4aS5SG4

    Steve
    5.0 HO from a '93 Mustang, SVE heads, Trickflow stage 1 cam, Trickflow Street Burner intake manifold, T-5 w/mid shift, IRS
    Delivery 9-10-16, First Start 12-28-16, First Go-Kart 2-18-17
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...MK4-8951-Build

  23. #23
    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    As I was turning the engine I had my thumb over the #1 spark plug hole. I waited until it was forced off by the pressure. I then inserted the screwdriver and continued cranking until I observed it go all the way up and start to come down. I noted how long the screwdriver stayed at the top of the dwell. I hand cranked the engine over again and when my thumb forced off again I inserted the screwdriver and attempted to stop half way through the dwell.

    I will take the spark plugs out, because boy is it not fun to do that. I will also take the valve cover off to confirm I am on the compression stroke. I did NOT observe the timing mark on the harmonic balancer, so I will add that to the mix.

    I rebuilt the whole engine. When I was putting on the timing chain on I lined up the dots to the best of my ability. I was pretty sure I had it correctly. I did not use a degree wheel though.



    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    Well it was running but doesn't really sound right. Just sticking a screwdriver in the sparkplug hole isn't definitive. You could still be at the top but on the exhaust stroke. On the other hand, if you're not getting a strong push of compression against your thumb either time the piston is at the top, then maybe the cam isn't timed right. I agree with the suggestion to take off the valve cover and watch the valves work as you're turning the engine over. You should be able to see all four strokes and the intake and exhaust valves operating at the right time based on piston position. At that point, you probably want all eight sparkplugs out so you can turn it over by hand more easily with a socket on the harmonic balancer bolt.

    So you installed the cam? How did you confirm it was timed properly? Did you use a degree wheel?
    Last edited by lahrs37; 12-28-2016 at 10:00 PM.
    5.0 HO from a '93 Mustang, SVE heads, Trickflow stage 1 cam, Trickflow Street Burner intake manifold, T-5 w/mid shift, IRS
    Delivery 9-10-16, First Start 12-28-16, First Go-Kart 2-18-17
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...MK4-8951-Build

  24. #24
    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post
    Sir Edward Is Spot On So.................
    True! I am getting nervous! lol
    5.0 HO from a '93 Mustang, SVE heads, Trickflow stage 1 cam, Trickflow Street Burner intake manifold, T-5 w/mid shift, IRS
    Delivery 9-10-16, First Start 12-28-16, First Go-Kart 2-18-17
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...MK4-8951-Build

  25. #25
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Sounds like the timing is retarded so get a light on it to see where you're at. I suspect that the TFI module will contact the stat housing preventing you from being able to turn the distributor enough to bring it in so you'll probably need to pull and restab it a tooth over. BTW, the comment earlier regarding the SPOUT is not correct or was misstated; you can move the distributor to change the timing with it in however to do the initial set you pull it---with the SPOUT out the ECU can not vary ignition timing and with it in it will adjust it depending on conditions and sensor information. The timing should be set at 10-12 degrees BTDC with it out. Once it is reinstalled the computer takes control of timing and you'll see it change.

    Good luck,
    Jeff

  26. #26
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    10.4 When setting the ignition timing, be certain to unplug the SPOUT connector
    (Page 6, Connector #14) which is located near the TFI module at the distributor.
    Loosen the distributor hold-down bolt. Set initial timing to factory setting of 10°
    BTDC. Tighten the distributor hold-down bolt, and verify timing is still correct.
    Reinstall the SPOUT connector; timing should advance approximately 8-10
    degrees at idle.
    CAUTION: Be certain to run the vehicle in a well ventilated area.
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  27. #27

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    One concern I have is regarding the camshaft itself.

    Is in the old firing order or the newer HO version?

    I think the early motors used a 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 order, but the later HO motors used a 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 order.

    It was a tad problematic when used with the Ford TPI set up since the firing orders were different.

    Sorry, but this was something that I ran across way back in the day with some of Fox Body Ford Friends.
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 12-29-2016 at 10:42 AM.

  28. #28
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    Building an engine is no easy task. I'm with Jeff on this one too. The timing sounds retarded. It runs so you have spark and fuel in the cylinders. It ran smoothly so your firing order matches the cam. Take the time to watch a video on setting initial timing and then reinstall your distributor. It would still be possible that the balancer has slipped. If that happened, a timing light would indicate the timing is correct but the engine is still lazy.

    Take your time, Glen

  29. #29
    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    Sounds like the timing is retarded so get a light on it to see where you're at. I suspect that the TFI module will contact the stat housing preventing you from being able to turn the distributor enough to bring it in so you'll probably need to pull and restab it a tooth over. BTW, the comment earlier regarding the SPOUT is not correct or was misstated; you can move the distributor to change the timing with it in however to do the initial set you pull it---with the SPOUT out the ECU can not vary ignition timing and with it in it will adjust it depending on conditions and sensor information. The timing should be set at 10-12 degrees BTDC with it out. Once it is reinstalled the computer takes control of timing and you'll see it change.

    Good luck,
    Jeff
    OK, so to be super clear, after I determine TDC, and while the distributor is out, I disconnect the SPOUT. I set the rotor in the distributor to point at #1 spark plug wire. I make sure the mark on the balancer is at 10-12 degrees before TDC. Then insert the distributor, careful not to move anything. Then I start the car. I point the timing light at the balancer, make sure I am indeed at 10-12 before TDC, and then finally reconnect the SPOUT. Is that right?
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    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSides9 View Post
    Building an engine is no easy task. I'm with Jeff on this one too. The timing sounds retarded. It runs so you have spark and fuel in the cylinders. It ran smoothly so your firing order matches the cam. Take the time to watch a video on setting initial timing and then reinstall your distributor. It would still be possible that the balancer has slipped. If that happened, a timing light would indicate the timing is correct but the engine is still lazy.

    Take your time, Glen
    I did not realize the harmonic balancer could slip. Man there are so many dang variables! Thanks for the insight. I will definitely be taking my time on this. There is no hurry. I just want to get it right.
    5.0 HO from a '93 Mustang, SVE heads, Trickflow stage 1 cam, Trickflow Street Burner intake manifold, T-5 w/mid shift, IRS
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  31. #31
    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post
    One concern I have is regarding the camshaft itself.

    Is in the old firing order or the newer HO version?

    I think the early motors used a 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 order, but the later HO motors used a 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 order.

    It was a tad problematic when used with the Ford TPI set up since the firing orders were different.

    Sorry, but this was something that I ran across way back in the day with some of Fox Body Ford Friends.
    I got the cam in a package deal that included the heads and intake from LMR. I am not even sure if they sell cams for the earlier 302s.
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  32. #32
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lahrs37 View Post
    I got the cam in a package deal that included the heads and intake from LMR. I am not even sure if they sell cams for the earlier 302s.
    Very likely it's the HO firing order. That's the norm with aftermarket cams. I would be quite surprised if you have the old firing order. I'm personally not familiar with what affect this would have, if any, on the Ford EFI. Harmonic balancers shouldn't slip if installed correctly. There should be a Woodruff key (half round looking piece of metal) in the slot between the crank and balancer. Hopefully you installed that when assembling the engine. It insures the balancer is in the right location plus keeps it from slipping.
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    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    Very likely it's the HO firing order. That's the norm with aftermarket cams. I would be quite surprised if you have the old firing order. I'm personally not familiar with what affect this would have, if any, on the Ford EFI. Harmonic balancers shouldn't slip if installed correctly. There should be a Woodruff key (half round looking piece of metal) in the slot between the crank and balancer. Hopefully you installed that when assembling the engine. It insures the balancer is in the right location plus keeps it from slipping.
    Yes, that is definitely there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lahrs37 View Post
    Yes, that is definitely there.
    OK, just to cover all the bases, the harmonic balancer can also slip between the inner piece keyed and bolted to the crank and the outer ring. They're connected with an elastic material that can fail. If you used a new balancer or the old one appeared to be in good shape, then I would say the likelihood is low. But full disclosure.
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  35. #35
    Senior Member Gromit's Avatar
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    I think the concern about slippage on a harmonic balancer is between the center hub and the outer ring. in many OEM they are only connected by a rubber ring that can break down over time. or if you put a strap wrench on the outer ring to turn over the motor. then the timing mark that should show TDC is actual not showing it. it is possible to confirm with a piston stop in the #1 spark plug hole. here is a good video small block Chevy sorry. but principal is the same. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RENhHI9n65I

    edit got beat to the point looking up the video.

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    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
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    when you installed your camshaft, did you go the extra step to degree it?. Also, when you installed your timing chain, was the motor sitting at TDC on the #1 compression stroke (where you align the timing chain dots)? This step is extremely important. Else the initial timing of the motor could be anywhere which sounds like the symptoms your having.

    if you get these two things right, your well within that magic ballpark to have initial timing set and she will turn over provided there is fuel and spark.

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    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    OK, just to cover all the bases, the harmonic balancer can also slip between the inner piece keyed and bolted to the crank and the outer ring. They're connected with an elastic material that can fail. If you used a new balancer or the old one appeared to be in good shape, then I would say the likelihood is low. But full disclosure.
    That is good to know. I ended up replacing the balancer with a new one.
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  38. #38

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    I'm personally not familiar with what affect this would have, if any, on the Ford EFI.
    The Multipoint EFI system will pulse out of phase with cam or valve timing and reduce performance since there is a different firing order.

    Performance is reduced and an engine can sometimes even pop or back fire since the fuel is sprayed the back side of closed (somewhat hot) intake valve.

    Basically the engine squirts the fuel at the correct cylinder numbers 1, 2, 6 & 8, but is out of phase for 3,4,5 & 7.

    1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 / Early Timing
    1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 / Late Timing
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 12-29-2016 at 03:32 PM.

  39. #39
    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickP View Post
    when you installed your camshaft, did you go the extra step to degree it?. Also, when you installed your timing chain, was the motor sitting at TDC on the #1 compression stroke (where you align the timing chain dots)? This step is extremely important. Else the initial timing of the motor could be anywhere which sounds like the symptoms your having.

    if you get these two things right, your well within that magic ballpark to have initial timing set and she will turn over provided there is fuel and spark.
    Unfortunately, I did not go the extra step to degree it. That is something I definitely am regretting right now. I was pretty sure I nailed the timing chain. I did a lot reading and watching before putting it on. The #1 piston was definitely all the way up and the dots lined up. I guess its possible that I was on the exhaust stroke and not the compression stroke...
    5.0 HO from a '93 Mustang, SVE heads, Trickflow stage 1 cam, Trickflow Street Burner intake manifold, T-5 w/mid shift, IRS
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  40. #40
    Senior Member lahrs37's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gromit View Post
    I think the concern about slippage on a harmonic balancer is between the center hub and the outer ring. in many OEM they are only connected by a rubber ring that can break down over time. or if you put a strap wrench on the outer ring to turn over the motor. then the timing mark that should show TDC is actual not showing it. it is possible to confirm with a piston stop in the #1 spark plug hole. here is a good video small block Chevy sorry. but principal is the same. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RENhHI9n65I

    edit got beat to the point looking up the video.
    A piston stop is a really great idea!
    5.0 HO from a '93 Mustang, SVE heads, Trickflow stage 1 cam, Trickflow Street Burner intake manifold, T-5 w/mid shift, IRS
    Delivery 9-10-16, First Start 12-28-16, First Go-Kart 2-18-17
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...MK4-8951-Build

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