Going in Circles - Part 1 the Engine?

[R Thomas]

My FFR build is still a few years out however I have a 97 Mustang in need of an engine now and plan on it being the donor for the build long term. What I will want in the FFR build is a good street-able engine.

So I find myself in a fix as the engine decision keeps evading me. An earlier 302 engine with carb would greatly reduce the complexity of the wiring and eliminate the ECU issues. But a carb tune is only right for one temperature and air density setting. I have a high comfort level with the basic configuration of the 302 and like the torque properties. Likewise a 302 from a 94-95 Mustang could be used with its original Fuel Injection and computer. Main disadvantage of this setup its too ugly to open the hood. Also a 302 with manifold change and one of the add-on EFI setups could be used. The advantages of that are the throwback look of carb engine for period feel with the advantages of Fuel Injection adjusting to the conditions. So that's 3 variations all on the old Windsor small block.

Then there seems to be a current trend toward using the Coyote. There is a lot right with going this way. Great power and drivable, but it has many mechanical and electrical parts with which I have no experience. Also the power is way above what the stock T-5 can handle. And maybe more of a concern to me I don't believe you can get all that power hooked up in a chassis as light as the FFR kits. I really don't need something that can melt the tires. This is likely tempered with my daily driver, a 2011 Mustang V-6 Convertible that was the first year for the 305HP V-6 (looks to me to be 3/4 of a Coyote). That car weighs in around 4000 with me and a full tank and is plenty capable of doing more than I ask in terms of acceleration. Also gets 21 mpg tooling around town.

So for me I would be happy if I could put a 3.7 V-6 like my daily in a FFR kit. I think it might have the perfect balance of power and weight however there's no Ford Racing Control pack to aid moving this engine out of the Mustangs. Perhaps its just my lack of current tech that I am unaware how that might be done. If anyone has ideas I would sure like to hear them?

There is nothing wrong with using a vintage 302 or the new Coyote but I would love to be the first to put a modern V-6 in there, after all it was good enough for the new Ford GT.

[ram_g]

Take it further and be the first person to put in an ecoboost 4 cylinder. I'm being perfectly serious, not sarcastic in any way. The new base mustangs are ecoboost 4's and have plenty of power. IIRC Ford has in fact introduced a 4 as a crate engine complete with wiring, etc.

[GoDadGo]

Build It The Way You Want It!

My MK-4 is the only Factory Five with a 383 SBC & ZF 6-Speed.

If I do another one down the road, no telling what I'll stuff in it; however, it likely won't be a Ford engine.

It's all about what you want your Dream Car to be so do your homework, make a plan and go for it.

Good Luck & Order Your Car In A Box!

[MPTech]

What are your constraints & desires?
If budget is a constraint, that will be the biggest limiting factor.
sounds like you want: streetable, EFI, reasonable hp, Ford(?), do you want it to sound like a V8? supercharger? turbo(s)?

The Coyote is a great engine and most of the issues have been thoroughly addressed and are now well supported by FFR. but it is tight, more expensive, more complicated, and less original looking.

If & when I do a second build, I think I'd go a 351 (maybe stroked a little) with a FI-Tech EFI & computer. (Traditional look & sound, with the reliability of EFI, and more performance than you need 99% of the time) Also easier to work on if something does go south.


(also, this may be better suited for the Roadster forum)

[R Thomas]

Thanks for the replies I was and still am looking for what I maybe missing when making an engine selection. Hoping someone can point toward an EFI that could work with the V-6. AS to budget hoping to stay around 10k for the engine and transmission combo. So likely used rather than new crate and hopefully transmission won't break the budget.

[edwardb]

Thanks for the replies I was and still am looking for what I maybe missing when making an engine selection. Hoping someone can point toward an EFI that could work with the V-6. AS to budget hoping to stay around 10k for the engine and transmission combo. So likely used rather than new crate and hopefully transmission won't break the budget.

There are pluses and minuses to each of the engine possibilities you've listed (carb'd, throttle body EFI, Coyote, etc.) and those could be responded to and discussed. But sounds like your mind is made up about the V-6. That's fine and sounds like an interesting project. But don't expect to receive too many responses with specifics, e.g. how to make it work with EFI. I haven't seen a single build on either forum with that engine. Just no experience here.

One response from a comment you made in your original post though. "And maybe more of a concern to me I don't believe you can get all that power hooked up in a chassis as light as the FFR kits..." in regard to the Coyote. At 400+ HP, it's a strong performer. But lots of builds have that much power and some a lot more. Traction and proper setup are important of course. But the power can be hooked up. Is it needed? That's a whole other discussion. The "ideal" HP is debated a lot. There's no right answer. It's your build.

[stevo7896]

You mentioned about staying away from the complexities of factory fuel injection and also the look factor with the factory fuel injection under the hood. I was In the exact same boat as you . I went with the 351w and fitech fuel injection like MPTech suggested above . It will give you the carb look with the fi reliability .Plus much more affordable than other Fi kits on the market. So far great feedback. I assume if you went with the coyote, you would love it , but your budget /complexity would increase. Only issue going with the v6 might be resale. If your worried the v8 will overpower it ,Im sure a v6 or v8 will get it squirly. Just the v8 will give you room to grow.

[NAZ]

Build what you want within your budget. If you're on a tight budget you'll probably not want to stray from the common choices as you will find lots of ways to blow that budget trying to cover new ground. There will be a lot of experimenting and surplus parts & materials when you're working through a custom build; and installing an unusual drivetrain combination puts this in the custom category. If you're comfortable with the Ford 302 and carburetors you might want to stay in your comfort zone. There will be less unforeseen challenges to deal with. If you want the convenience of self-tuning aftermarket EFI the cost difference between some of these systems and a new carb is not as big as you may believe. Besides the carb you have to have a supply of jets, power valves, cams, gaskets, and tools to tune them. If you don't already have the materials and tools to properly tune a carb you'll need to bake the cost of these items into your budget and that will bring the cost close to an EFI system. And don't fret over power -- there's no such thing as too much power as long as the engine is connected to the skinny right pedal. F1 cars weigh 1548 lbs and produce ~750 HP and they get that power to the ground. A 300 or 400 HP 302 will be sporty to drive and not cost an arm & leg to obtain.

[R Thomas]

Again thanks for the replies. There is definitely a budget and I think after reading the comments the idea of going with a vintage 302 makes the most sense. There's really no pressing reason for me not to use a donor I plan to run in gelcoat for awhile so upgrades can be dealt with when its time for paint. Even thou the production fuel injection setup is ugly its proven and well matched to the car. Also no headaches with transmissions just use the stock T5. If its not enough fun I can always change it up later.

[2bking]

In regard to the Coyote, I have one, its 412+ hp crate engine and drives like a dream. I have a 3.55 torson rear end and TKO 600 transmission with a .64 fifth gear. I have to pedal it in first gear and it gets lose on the shift to second but then settles down and hooks up on a good concrete road. It has good passing power on the highway without down shifting from fifth when the engine RPM is above 2100, about 70 mph, but down shifting to 4th makes it better. Most say 400 hp is about the right amount to make these cars fun without getting dangerous but it all depends on the right foot. The Coyote can be sourced used from F150 pickups and Mustangs and then use the Ford Racing Controls pack to make them play. A salvage Mustang Coyote with the manual transmission and clutch would be a cheap way to get to the 400 hp level.

[RickP]

when I was at that "stage" of deciding on a power plant, I kind of had my answer in front of me with my donor 87. This block only had 80 ish K on it so I opted to take what I had and rebuild it with some reasonable power. I never liked the top end look of a 5.0 so early on, so I planned to swap out the top end for a more "traditional" carb setup driven by a bolt on EFI. This way, I could toss out the Mustang harness, ECU etc. and go with the RF harness altogether. I am really pleased with motor and how it turned out. My first complete block up build.

If I was to do it again, and I had no starting point as I did with the 5.0, I would buy a crate Coyote for a multitude of reasons.