MkV Rumor Mill

[RaceMattC]

Since the release of the Mk3 Coupe, it has got me thinking about the next Roadster. I think Factory 5 did an amazing job with the chassis. It looks so much better (and apparently is so much stiffer) going to the new lattice structure over the traditional beams up the middle. The obvious question now is, when will the Cobra receive the same treatment? Has anyone heard anything through the rumor mill, or is this a taboo subject on the forums? This is purely a guess, but it seems like the Mk4 is getting long in the tooth, and it is next in line for an upgrade.

I am looking to buy one this year (unlikely) or next year, (more likely). I'd much prefer to have a chassis optimized for the IRS and not two beams up the middle.

[edwardb]

These kind of things are typically kept pretty quiet. Even those who may know aren't supposed to say anything. Interesting though how the period correct 4-inch tube chassis is now perceived as less than optimal. It's been one of the things that's differentiated the Factory Five replica from most of the competition. No doubt the Gen 3 Coupe space frame is even stiffer. But the current design is no slouch. Any chassis I can jack from anywhere on the side and the whole thing lifts is pretty stiff. You can feel how stiff it is when you're driving it too. Personally, I wouldn't consider the Mk4 as getting long in the tooth. It's undergone constant incremental changes and improvements since it was introduced. And the new 2015 Mustang based IRS is sweet.

[kgkeys]

That is pretty funny... Round tube frame and IRS were two of my "have to haves" when I started looking for a Cobra. I was pretty surprised to find out you can basically jack up the entire front from one corner. I've only got 150mi on mine, but I wouldn't have it any other way. There was that outfit in FL that was making aluminum bodied "MkVs".

-Kyle

[GoDadGo]

I've got to chime in on this one since we all know that I love to chime in.

1. I love the new Type-65 and that chassis is totally amazing so I would love to build one down the road.
2. I equally love the MK-4 because it is now more "Period Correct Looking" since the arrival of the new independent rear suspension.
3. For the record, I'd hate to see that chassis be modified because losing that 4" round tube chassis looks so period correct.

If Dave Smith & His Band Of Merry Men Want To Do Something Really Cool, Then I Say Bring Back The Type 65 Spyder!

[Gumball]

Only my opinion and your mileage may vary, but I would think that if any such change were to take place, maybe - and it's a huge maybe, it would be for the Challenge cars and not for the road-going replicas. FFR has always made it a point to refer to the period-correct nature of their chassis, including the changes that were made to the front "X" on the Mk4 cars, so I don't see them changing it on all kits.

[kgkeys]

If Dave Smith & His Band Of Merry Men Want To Do Something Really Cool, Then I Say Bring Back The Type 65 Spyder!

I've said before that if they were making the spyder when I ordered my car, it would have been a VERY tough decision...

-Kyle

[GoDadGo]

I really wanted to do a Syder, but it went out of production before I got my funds together.

That car was so exotic looking, plus I thought that my 383-Mighty Mouse / ZF 6-Speed Combo would have be a bit more palatable in that platform over the MK-4.

I just hope that they don't do away with the 4" round tube chassis for the MK-4 & FIA cars because I feel like they have perfected those cars so why mess with them.

[SkiRideDrive]

My 2 cents: I have been lurking a while and would absolutely build a Roadster with the new Coupe type chassis, and definitely would not build one with the current design. I am actually now considering building a coupe as I am quite impressed with the new chassis. I however prefer the aesthetics of the Roadster body. Function and safety over nostalgia for me.

[Yama-Bro]

When the MK4 was released, I remember Dave Smith saying something about this being the last changes they make to the roadster for a long time. I'm not saying they can't improve it more, but I do think that the redesign and updates they did to get to the MK4 are similar to the redesign and updates that they did to get to the Gen 3 Coupe. Plus it makes sense that they'd update the roadster before the coupe since it's their top seller.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

If it ain't broke don't fix it. IMHO it ain't broke.

[Gumball]

Just another thought - although I'm certainly not an engineer. The upper roll cage structure must assuredly have something to do with the stiffness of the new space-frame chassis on the Gen 3 coupe. Not sure if that would be the case if you were to remove all that upper structure, as you would have to do in order to make it work in a regular roadster. All the more reason for my earlier comment of I could only see that being done for the Challenge car, which needs a cage structure anyway.

[SkiRideDrive]

The cage isn't triangulated at the front upper node so it would add minimally to the stiffness. If you look at nascar cages and australian v8 supercar you will see an additional tube to the upper front node, making the structure much stronger. I would think if you cut out the cage the new design would still be significantly stronger in torsion and bending.

[RaceMattC]

Well I am bummed if it is indeed true Factory 5 wants to stick with tradition with the tubes. Even though apparently the frame is "good enough" there is no suspension engineer (besides in karting) that has ever said "yep, that chassis is too stiff."

Besides the obvious stiffness and weight benefits, I'd also like to lower driver seating position. It seems like the seat sits on the tube, significantly raising the driver's head. If I can get the driver lower, then I'd feel a lot better about the rollover protection from the bars. Right now without the Challenge car rollbar, it looks like it will be close for passing the broomstick test with a helmet on. I do realize the roll hoops could be extended, but I am trying to balance aesthetics with safety. I think a full halo is out of the question, but I am trying to make do with keeping a close to stock look.

[edwardb]

Well I am bummed if it is indeed true Factory 5 wants to stick with tradition with the tubes. Even though apparently the frame is "good enough" there is no suspension engineer (besides in karting) that has ever said "yep, that chassis is too stiff."

Besides the obvious stiffness and weight benefits, I'd also like to lower driver seating position. It seems like the seat sits on the tube, significantly raising the driver's head. If I can get the driver lower, then I'd feel a lot better about the rollover protection from the bars. Right now without the Challenge car rollbar, it looks like it will be close for passing the broomstick test with a helmet on. I do realize the roll hoops could be extended, but I am trying to balance aesthetics with safety. I think a full halo is out of the question, but I am trying to make do with keeping a close to stock look.

The footboxes are lower than the top of the 4-inch chassis tubes. But yes, the main cockpit floor where the seats are mounted is on top of the 4-inch chassis tubes. So, 4-inch ride height + 4-inch chassis tube + few inches for the seat (with me sitting in it) puts my backside 10-11 inches or so from the pavement. I can put my arm over the door and just about touch the ground. Lower seating position so I can't see over the dash and over the relatively long (for its size) front cowl? I don't think so. The standard Factory Five roll bar is already somewhat elevated, and most are able to pass the broomstick test.

This is a replica of a classic 50+ year old design. With newer design suspension components and better brakes, newer engine setups including EFI, it improves on the classic and is a very potent performer and awesome to drive. I for one would be very disappointed if the basic concept that's worked for 9,000+ cars is changed.

I think you're looking at the wrong car. Just my opinion. I'm out.

[q4stix]

Also consider that the Roadster could fit the new Coyote engines within the footboxes while the Coupe owners had to do a lot more to make everything fit. The new design allows current engine options with ease and allows phasing the new space frame in with a lower volume production model.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

I think you're looking at the wrong car. Just my opinion. I'm out.

Sounds like a plan.

[RaceMattC]

Thanks for the info about the seating position, that is really helpful to know. Maybe I shouldn't be too worried then. I've just been trying to go off of pictures from people on a track and what their setup ends up looking like. I'll have to see if someone at the track will let me sit in one with a helmet on.

[SkiRideDrive]

This doesn't seem like a very inviting atmosphere... The gist I am getting here is this is how it has been done forever and if you are looking for progress please leave. Just my observation. I suppose some people are just stuck in the past. Some people are open to engineering and progress.

Q4 could you elaborate a bit. I am a bit confused on which chassis you are talking about. When you say new design.. do you mean new coupe or new roadster? Thanks

[Gumball]

Yep - happy to say I'm stuck in the past... that's why I built a FFR and did it as period-correct as I could make it.

As for welcoming, I think this site is one of the best as far as being fair, open, and respectful. Speaking for myself, my comments on this thread were simply to point out that FFR has made the connection to the original cars a cornerstone of their marketing of the Roadster, since 1995. They offer many progressive designs, particularly the GTM and the 818. I think that is a great product mix and allows a place for those who want to relive the glory days of road racing and experience the essence of the Ford / Shelby connection for something in a reasonable price point.

Old-skool is kool.....

[GoDadGo]

Amen Brother Gumball, Amen!

Except for the motor of course!

[q4stix]

Q4 could you elaborate a bit. I am a bit confused on which chassis you are talking about. When you say new design.. do you mean new coupe or new roadster? Thanks

Sorry, I should have worded that better. The Roadster can already fit a Coyote engine in the existing chassis. The Gen 2 Coupe needed 'massaging'. The new Gen 3 Coupe chassis allows the same powertrain configurations as the Roadster now as well as being an upgrade in other areas. There isn't the same 'need' in the Roadster because there are lots of options for nearly every detail and lots of market solutions for ones FFR hasn't addressed yet.

Yep - happy to say I'm stuck in the past... that's why I built a FFR and did it as period-correct as I could make it.
....
I think that is a great product mix and allows a place for those who want to relive the glory days of road racing and experience the essence of the Ford / Shelby connection for something in a reasonable price point.

I think you've correctly pointed out the dilemma FFR is experiencing. They want to create a replica that pays tribute to the original that respects the heritage and development, but still offer it to a new generation of customers that want to take advantage of the new technology and developments on the market.

The Roadster and the Coupe were never static examples of design since engine types changed, bodywork was updated, etc. on the track and in production. I still fully appreciate the legacy and want to be a part of the community like Shelby would have done - using the latest engine, the latest suspension, and now the latest space frame chassis to make a car similar, but not necessarily identical to the original.

[jakester888]

There's a video of Dave Smith talking about the MK4 - published in 2010. In this video Dave states his intention to make this "final" refresh to the kit. In otherwords, at the time, Dave had no vision of making any more improvements. Key comments at 1:27.

[Jim Schenck]

While this debate likely will eventually happen up in the conference room at Factory Five I can say for certain there is no MKV in the skunkworks as of yet. The round tube vs spaceframe debate may be just as polarizing inside of FFR as it looks like it could get here, however there is a fairly simple solution that keeps everyone happy, we just continue to offer both styles of chassis along with whatever other things we could come up with for a MKV. When doing the coupe chassis and envisioning the carry over to the roadster that was the only way I could picture us going forward with it. In time it may be that one style would win out but more likely I think there is a market for both styles, just as been demonstrated from the small sample size on this thread. For anyone hoping to not get caught out by the next release being a MKV, you needn't worry, that's not what's next

[wareaglescott]

For anyone hoping to not get caught out by the next release being a MKV, you needn't worry, that's not what's next

Well this is quite the tease! haha
Thanks for the post in this thread!

[GoDadGo]

While this debate likely will eventually happen up in the conference room at Factory Five I can say for certain there is no MKV in the skunkworks as of yet. The round tube vs spaceframe debate may be just as polarizing inside of FFR as it looks like it could get here, however there is a fairly simple solution that keeps everyone happy, we just continue to offer both styles of chassis along with whatever other things we could come up with for a MKV. When doing the coupe chassis and envisioning the carry over to the roadster that was the only way I could picture us going forward with it. In time it may be that one style would win out but more likely I think there is a market for both styles, just as been demonstrated from the small sample size on this thread. For anyone hoping to not get caught out by the next release being a MKV, you needn't worry, that's not what's next

Jim,

Here Is A Suggestion From The Dark Side Of The Peanut Gallery:

1. Leave the MK-4, FIA and Challenge Cars alone since they are perfected.
2. Bring back the Type 65 Spyder based on the new space/truss frame design.
3. Create a truck and/or possibly a 4 Seat Woodie version of the 33 Hot Rod.
4. Continue to perfect the 818 since FFR has a coupe, a drop top and R-version of that platform.

This strategy would give Factory Five Racing multiple versions of each platform except for the flagship GTM.
Economy of Scale & Multi-Usage Of Each Platform Will Yield Income Concentration Diversity.

Sorry To Speak Like A Banker, But I'd Like You All Do Well While Continuing To Grow & Improve The Company!

Steve

[RaceMattC]

Jim,
Thank you for the response from inside Factory 5. I didn't realize this would be such a polarizing subject when I first brought it up! I'll have to do some thinking now over which one I prefer. The looks of the Roadster are just drop dead amazing, but it is hard to ignore the straight function and performance of the coupe.

[steno]

A 33 with a back seat SHOULD be in the plan! 2 doors... 4 seats!!

[Svtfreak]

A 33 with a back seat SHOULD be in the plan! 2 doors... 4 seats!!

At least give me a rumble seat! I intend to do a 33 within a year and a half or so to start it, and with 3 kids under 11 and a wife, I need all the spots I can get! The oldest will be out by the time
I get it all together so a rumble seat with room for two little ones works perfect

[Jeff Kleiner]

A 33 with a back seat SHOULD be in the plan! 2 doors... 4 seats!!

Been saying this to Dave for years (heck Sten, you've probably been standing there with us as I've preached it ). Young guys with kids and us old farts with grandkids want to be able to haul them around.



Jeff

[myjones]

Been saying this to Dave for years (heck Sten, you've probably been standing there with us as I've preached it ). Young guys with kids and us old farts with grandkids want to be able to haul them around.
Jeff

Jeff
Good to know we are on the same soapbox, AMEN brother;
That long top in soft and hard versions would be great options on the 33. If the chassis was updated a little on the coil over points the IRS should sit nicely below a rear bench.
The woody version would still be my favorite though.
DB

[myjones]

I can say for certain there is no MKV in the skunkworks as of yet. snip , you needn't worry, that's not what's next

The skunk whisperer has spoken
And at night on his own time, that is dedication to the brand.
Diggin the new stuff and respecting the old.

Dale Berry

[ram_g]

I suppose some people are just stuck in the past.

Dude, this is the funniest thing I've read in a while. The Roadster by intent is designed to replicate a car that was built in the mid 1960's. If you didn't intend to replicate stated vehicle, there are dozens of other ways to get your jollies, Ariel Atom, Polaris Slingshot, etc., to say nothing of FFR's own 818. But to post in a Roadster forum and cast rocks at being "stuck in the past" is just ludicrous.

Proudly one of the past-stickers,
Ram_G

[edwardb]

Dude, this is the funniest thing I've read in a while. The Roadster by intent is designed to replicate a car that was built in the mid 1960's. If you didn't intend to replicate stated vehicle, there are dozens of other ways to get your jollies, Ariel Atom, Polaris Slingshot, etc., to say nothing of FFR's own 818. But to post in a Roadster forum and cast rocks at being "stuck in the past" is just ludicrous.

Proudly one of the past-stickers,
Ram_G

I said I was done, but I can't help myself... Thank you.

[Duke]

IMO, the next business move for FFR that would make since is to expand and create a production/assembly group to sell turn key products and take advantage of the recent law changes for small manufactures. This would expand the customer base by a large margin and compete with Superformance and backdraft, taking some of their existing market share. Also, a state of the art inventory management system with bar code scanning and production operations management reporting would really help customer service for the kit side of the business.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

I would think about doing an FFR 33 with a rumble seat option. Did this '33 in the mid eighties as a 2+2. Leather interior & audio controls on both seating positions. The rear window could lower to make conversation possible. Paint is a Mercedes Benz blue. Car is a metal/plastic combo collection of crash parts over a modified reproduction frame.

[UnhipPopano]

"IMO, the next business move for FFR that would make since is to expand and create a production/assembly group to sell turn key products and take advantage of the recent law changes for small manufactures. This would expand the customer base by a large margin and compete with Superformance and backdraft, taking some of their existing market share."

If they were to do something like this, they should set it up as a separate business. I could see someone purchasing a car, getting killed and the family suing for $$$$$. A separate company would stop the law suits as the second company would have limited assets.

"Also, a state of the art inventory management system with bar code scanning and production operations management reporting would really help customer service for the kit side of the business."

On the other hand, they might like to spend more time and effort dealing with angry customers and paying for multiple shipments of back-order parts. As they grow, there is probably someone in the office looking to build their empire with as many employees as they can.

[steno]

Perhaps a separate business is why Dave bought the adjoining property in Wareham! Hmmmmm.

[GoDadGo]

Add An LS, SBC and/or BBC Version = One Great MK-5 Roadster! >>>----------> Sorry My Ford Friends, But I Just Had To!

> I would like to see is an LS option ONLY because that engine is easily adapted to the factory mounts, unlike the SBC and BBC mills.
> I'd also like to see FFR add double universal joints, supported of course, to the steering shafts to stop the increasing and decreasing acceleration points.
> It would really smooth out the steering and Stop That Flop Over Feel that we all have on our Roadsters, FIA's & Type-65's.
> It would put the shaft back into phase, which would be nice!

https://youtu.be/gmV4qwLfOMY

[2FAST4U]

I'D like to see period correct foot boxes, trunkpan, and gas tank

[GoDadGo]

I'D like to see period correct foot boxes, trunkpan, and gas tank

Excellent Points!