John's EZ36R H6 818R Build

[alpine227]

It took me a few attempts switching signal wires and input captures until I had full rpm sync cranking. I turned off the fuel pump while I tried different combinations. Once I had full sync I turned the pump on and fired up full senquential cop.

[Hobby Racer]

It took me a few attempts switching signal wires and input captures until I had full rpm sync cranking. I turned off the fuel pump while I tried different combinations. Once I had full sync I turned the pump on and fired up full senquential cop.

That's one of the things that has me stumped. I get full RPM sync while cranking with full sequential COP but it won't fire up. Backfires spits and coughs though.

I have started a thread over on the msextra forums and sent an email to diyautotune for help.

[Wayne Presley]

Set it up as wasted COP to see if that helps. Also the ignition goes A,B,C,D,E,F matched to 1–6–3–2–5–4

[Hobby Racer]

Set it up as wasted COP to see if that helps. Also the ignition goes A,B,C,D,E,F matched to 1–6–3–2–5–4

Yup, the engine runs on wasted COP. One of the first checks I did. Still no ideas on what to look for next?

[alpine227]

You might try switching to tooth logger in the ignition menu instead of 36-2-2-2 confirm you have a cam signal that gives 3 pulses per 720 degrees of rotation. I know the first gen uses a 3 wire hall sensor that should output a 12v square wave no pull-up used on ECU side for cam. I am not 100% sure worth checking to see if the sensor is 2 or 3 wire. Next is what fuel settings are you running. I am out to training and don't have access to my tuning laptop but can look at the msq on my phone (msdroid app) if you want to post it up. Also if you could post the tooth log.

[craigfree]

When I wired up my ez30r I got very lucky that haltech followed convection and declared front left cylinder as #1. Subaru defines cylinder #1 as the front right cylinder. If you made the same assumption I did, and mega squirt followed Subaru, you will be out of phase.

[Hobby Racer]

You might try switching to tooth logger in the ignition menu instead of 36-2-2-2 confirm you have a cam signal that gives 3 pulses per 720 degrees of rotation.

Yup, checked that with tooth, composite and engine loggers. composite log.png

I know the first gen uses a 3 wire hall sensor that should output a 12v square wave no pull-up used on ECU side for cam. I am not 100% sure worth checking to see if the sensor is 2 or 3 wire.

3-wire hall sensor that needs a 12V pullup. tried it both ways and only get a signal with the pullup.

Next is what fuel settings are you running. I am out to training and don't have access to my tuning laptop but can look at the msq on my phone (msdroid app) if you want to post it up. Also if you could post the tooth log.

To make it easier, all the logs and tunes are posted on the msextra forum. If you would not mind can you take a look and tell me is you see anything weird? The last post has the best tune and log files.

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewto...?f=131&t=67870

I'm thankful for any help / advise you can come up with, this is starting to drive me nuts

[Hobby Racer]

When I wired up my ez30r I got very lucky that haltech followed convection and declared front left cylinder as #1. Subaru defines cylinder #1 as the front right cylinder. If you made the same assumption I did, and mega squirt followed Subaru, you will be out of phase.

I made sure I used the front right cylinder as #1 and the front right intake cam as the phase cam. I even tried switching to the front left cam for phase with no luck.

Also, since it runs fine when I switch to wasted COP it proves the crank timing is correct since that only relies on the crank pulses and not the cam.

Just curious, does the ez30R cam sensors need 12V pullups and do you have the AVCS working?

[Hobby Racer]

When I wired up my ez30r I got very lucky that haltech followed convection and declared front left cylinder as #1. Subaru defines cylinder #1 as the front right cylinder. If you made the same assumption I did, and mega squirt followed Subaru, you will be out of phase.

Craig, just so we are clear, when you say front left you are looking from the transmission forward to the crank pulley, i.e. drivers side when installed in the 818 right?

[Wayne Presley]

Passenger side front is cylinder one. If it runs wasted COP but not COP and is in full synch, you have the wrong cylinder as #1

[Wayne Presley]

Also un plug the AVCS solenoids until you get it running well.

[Hobby Racer]

Passenger side front is cylinder one.

Yup, just wanted to be sure we are on the same page. That is how I have it setup.

If it runs wasted COP but not COP and is in full synch, you have the wrong cylinder as #1

I double, triple checked the firing order. Ran each coil in test mode to be sure. They are wired in the correct firing order. Full sync for wasted COP is only based on the crank signal, if I had the cylinders wired wrong it would not run in wasted spark mode either as the wrong cylinders would be firing during the compression stroke.

Also un plug the AVCS solenoids until you get it running well.

I did unplug the AVCS solenoids in case they were moving the cams around and causing problems.

[Wayne Presley]

OK is it going full synch in COP?

[Hobby Racer]

OK is it going full synch in COP?

According to the composite log it is. And the full sync indicator is on in Tuner Studio while cranking.

[Wayne Presley]

Swap the paired coil wiring as a test.

[Hobby Racer]

Swap the paired coil wiring as a test.

Not sure what you mean? These are single pencil coil packs not a paired wasted coil pack.

[Wayne Presley]

swap the trigger wires between 1-2, 3-4 and 5-6 and see if it runs.

[Hobby Racer]

swap the trigger wires between 1-2, 3-4 and 5-6 and see if it runs.

I understand now. That will not be easy as it requires cutting and splicing the harness.

Wouldn't switching the firing order in Tuner Studio to 2-5-4-1-6-3 have the same effect without cutting the harness?

[Wayne Presley]

its easy, do it at the MS3 connector. lift up the red lock and pull the wires out and swap them, push the red lock back down and retry.

[craigfree]

Craig, just so we are clear, when you say front left you are looking from the transmission forward to the crank pulley, i.e. drivers side when installed in the 818 right?

Yes, I have front driver as cylinder number 1, and home on driver's side cam.

I can verify later whether I'm pulling up or not, but iitc I am.

If you're running in wasted spark, it only needs crank timing, so something regarding your home timing is screwed up. Check diagnostics while cranking to see if your cam timing is registering.

I'm running avls and avcs (intake only on 30r).

[Hobby Racer]

If you're running in wasted spark, it only needs crank timing, so something regarding your home timing is screwed up. Check diagnostics while cranking to see if your cam timing is registering.

I've run many crank and cam logs. the cam is registering pulses and in they appear to be in the correct location relative to the crank pulses. That is what is so confusing.

[alpine227]

The firing order in tuner studio pertains calculating fuel trims and soes not assign it to an output

[Hobby Racer]

The firing order in tuner studio pertains calculating fuel trims and soes not assign it to an output

Right, I do remember reading that. I have so many things swimming around in my head right now trying to figure this out.

[Hobby Racer]

its easy, do it at the MS3 connector. lift up the red lock and pull the wires out and swap them, push the red lock back down and retry.

This is my next test. I have to completely disassemble my interior as the MS unit is buried in the center console under a bunch of other wiring!

If this works, it would mean that the left side front cylinder is really #1. How can that be?

[flynntuna]

I'm confused, every where I look I find that #1 cyl. Is in front passenger side.

[alpine227]

Are you on sequential coil on plug getting full sync? If you are on wasted spark it will show sync even if the cam is not synced.

[alpine227]

That is cyl #1 however the cam on the even number side could have a mark to indicate power stroke for #1. Ej205 gets engine phase information from even number intake cam.

[Hobby Racer]

Are you on sequential coil on plug getting full sync? If you are on wasted spark it will show sync even if the cam is not synced.

Yes, I get full sync with full sequential and COP but it only runs when when wasted COP is selected. Really looks like it is 360 degrees out of phase. Wayne's suggestion of swapping the coil pairs will prove that theory out. But if it does work with the swapped coil pairs it does not explain why. I re-ran the MegaSquirt coil and injector tests today and they are all firing in the correct firing order (1-6-3-2-5-4)

Here is screen shot of the composite log using full sequential and COP. It show no sync loss.
Screenshot from 2017-12-03 16:47:16.png

[alpine227]

If you run it wasted cop and full sequential fuel would it should than fire the pair of coils in both power and exhaust stroke and require full rpm sync and would be easier than swap wires. I am not 100% on this test just something that popped in my head.

[Hobby Racer]

If you run it wasted cop and full sequential fuel would it should than fire the pair of coils in both power and exhaust stroke and require full rpm sync and would be easier than swap wires. I am not 100% on this test just something that popped in my head.

Yup, I've done that test and it runs fine because, as you say, it is firing the coils on both power and exhaust stroke. That is why I believe it is 360 degrees out of phase.

I am going to experiment more tomorrow with syncing on the LH cam as looking at the pattern trace it is 360 degree out of phase with the RH cam that I am syncing with now.

[alpine227]

I am interested in seeing if they have a multi toothed wheel on the left side head seems like it would only need one tooth for avcs angle feed back. Bit if it also is a 3 tooth wheel it would likely be 360(crank) degrees off from the right side.

[Hobby Racer]

The LH and RH intake cams have the same 3 tooth wheels, 360 degrees out of phase.

[EODTech87]

That would make sense as to why it's not working right. The LH intake cam suppose to be the Main Cam not the RH Intake cam. One would assume the main cam would be paired to cylinder #1 but that seems to not be the case.

It would make sense though as my EJ205 uses the driver side intake cam as the camshaft trigger while cylinder 1 is on the RH side.

Craig actually said something about this yesterday but I missed it until just now.

[craigfree]

When I wired up my haltech, the setup in the engine selection told me which cam to set as home. Check if megasquirt does anything similar.

Wait, can't you just switch which cam is home in the tuning software?

[EODTech87]

I'm pretty sure you can.

Ignition Settingss -> Ignition Options/Wheel Decoder -> Change Cam Input to Digital Frequency In 2

[alpine227]

would advise to try every configuration of wiring on sensors, coils, inverted cam, rising and falling edge both 36-2-2-2 and 36-2-2-2 VVT. At some point the two codes branched apart and the vvt and I would assume some development of the stafard code may not appear in the VVT which again was developed for avcs ej2xx engines that did not have the 4-2 cam wheel.

[Hobby Racer]

When I wired up my haltech, the setup in the engine selection told me which cam to set as home. Check if megasquirt does anything similar.

Nope, nothing to clue you in as to what cam to use. Like in Star Wars your supposed to use the force

I'm pretty sure you can.

Ignition Settingss -> Ignition Options/Wheel Decoder -> Change Cam Input to Digital Frequency In 2

Yes, I have been using that setting to switch back and fourth, not getting any luck.

would advise to try every configuration of wiring on sensors, coils, inverted cam, rising and falling edge both 36-2-2-2 and 36-2-2-2 VVT. At some point the two codes branched apart and the vvt and I would assume some development of the stafard code may not appear in the VVT which again was developed for avcs ej2xx engines that did not have the 4-2 cam wheel.

At this point I have tried all combinations of wheel decoders (non vvt and VVT) and triggering cams (both left and right). I have even resorted to reading the source code. The "36-2-2-2" and "Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT" wheel decoders use the same 36-2-2-2 source code, they only differ in the ignition code used. From what I read you can use either when your cylinder count is 6. If you have a cylinder count of 4 (like the EJ's) the code uses a different cam pattern.

At this point I believe Wayne is right. I have the wrong cylinder #1. Not because I wired it incorrectly, but because the MS code wants the left front cylinder to be #1. My guess is that since the MS code is based on the ez30d first gen's cam, the ez36d (and maybe the ez30d second gen) cam is out of phase by 360 crank degrees with the ez30d first gen. This would completely explain my situation and all the test data I have.

I know of no others that are running an ez36d on MegaSquirt using full sequential and COP so I may be the first one to encounter this. So if I re-pin my ECU to swap the injector and spark trigger wires so everything works, I'll have to pay close attention and swap them back if the MS team ever updates the code to take this into account

[alpine227]

If it does fix the issue worth reaching back out to James on the forum and get everyone you know to comment on your thread on the Ms forum how him fixing code for the ez36 would benefit thier build as well....

[Hobby Racer]

If it does fix the issue worth reaching back out to James on the forum and get everyone you know to comment on your thread on the Ms forum how him fixing code for the ez36 would benefit thier build as well....

Yes, I most likely will assuming it works. I'm not sure how they could fix it without breaking the ez30d first gen installs though. They might be able to branch the code based on engine size.

For example:

if (engine_size > 3300 cc's)

do ez36d stuff

else

do ez30d or eg33 stuff

end

The problem might come if the ez30d second gen cams follow the same pattern as the ez36d (which I belief they do), then they have to figure out how to tell them apart in the code.

[alpine227]

Yup, Or use the vvt code for second gen and ez36. I know that haltech had to develop the code for the ez36 when mighty car mods did the "Gramps" build, I wonder if they previously had success with the second generation ez30 if not would prove your right about the difference between the two generations haveing different triggers.