obsessing over bushings

[Bill Waters]

I - and many others who have posted here and elsewhere - have long held the belief that poly bushings used in control arms should be lubricated only on the inside of the bushing, on the inner steel sleeve, and on the outer flanges (if applicable). Interestingly, many posts on other technical and racing forums - as well as the actual instructions from poly bushing manufacturers - advise also lubricating the outside of the bushing and inside of the steel control arm bushing housing sleeve.

The conventional wisdom has been that the bushing should remain fixed in the control arm and only rotate around the inner steel sleeve. I am beginning to question how much difference that actually makes. This is a practical matter for me, since I am building my Challenge car to ST2 spec, and have the 2015 Mustang IRS option. I am unable, when the assembly is fully torqued, to get all of the bushings to rotate with the control arm around the inner metal sleeve; the slip surface is also occurring within the control arm.

Which leads me to my question: does anyone have significant experience with this issue in an extended Street or race application? I have looked everywhere and can't find an answer to this question, which I would think is commonly encountered.

Thanks,

Bill

[mikeinatlanta]

In an unsealed environment, where you have movement you have wear. If you are ok with wear on the arm sleeve no problem. If you want wear on the inner sleeve then you should ensure that is where you have rotation. Myself, I never lube the outside of the bushing. Why would anyone want to?

[Bill Waters]

I had always subscribed to the theory you cite, Mike. But if you Google topics related to bushings and their installation, you'll find many sites and manufacturers' installation instructions advise lubricating inner and outer aspects of the bushings. Surprised me. So I'm at the point of asking those with long experience with this whether it really matters. Thanks

[Bill Waters]

Look, for example, at Prothane and Powerflex's sites under tech or FAQs

[mikeinatlanta]

All they care about is no customers complaining about squeaking, so default to lube everything. They don't care what is worn out next year.

[AC Bill]

I have BBK rear control arms, which have grease fittings for lube to reach the inner part of the bushing surrounding the sleeve.

http://www.bbkperformance.com/produc...-arm-kits.html

[CraigS]

All they care about is no customers complaining about squeaking, so default to lube everything. They don't care what is worn out next year.

I suspect this is the answer. I have always gone by your original theory. The bushing should be locked into the control arm and pivot on the sleeve. That does require that the sleeve and the tube that is part of the control arm both be the perfect length. The sleeve needs to be just a fraction longer than the assembled length of the two bushings and this may be where the problem usually occurs.

[johngeorge]

I have always only greased the inside of the busing and the outside ends of the bushing. The outside busing is dry. Inside of bushing has grease grooves, where outside does not.

Which bushings are you referring that you are having difficulties? Any pics? Have you measured the metal sleeve vs the chassis mounting location?

[Bill Waters]

Thanks, Craig; that has been my thought. As others have mentioned here, the mounting tabs for the rear control arms are not, as you receive them, parallel with each other - both with respect to the individual pairs of them, or between the pairs of tabs. In the case of mine, the bolts securing the arms are very difficult to install, meaning that the alignment of the entire assembly is suboptimal. So, some of the bushings are more compressed against the tabs than others. I have aligned and made parallel everything, so my only remaining options are to accept the fact that one or two of the bushings rotate with the arm, remove material from the bushing flanges, or find very slightly longer inner tubes. The latter option might of course push the tabs out of parallel and create a new problem.

Hoping someone has had to sort through this problem. But I'll have to move in one direction or the other soon, since this is holding up the build!

Thanks

[Bill Waters]

Hi, John; that has always been my approach, too, and the bushings delivered by FFR look ideal - grooves down the inner aspect of the bushing, etc. These are the rear control arm bushings - upper and lower - for the 2015 Mustang IRS option. I install them - greased in the fashion you mention - and then add additional grease with the gun before tightening. What I suspect is happening is that the basic fit-up is so tight that the grease tracks into the area around the outside of the bushing , rather than the inside. Maybe I should be content with a manual lubrication and let them wear-in a bit before lubing them with the gun after a good bit of use.

I will try to post pics (embarrassed to admit I never have, so will have to figure out how), but everything looks as it should-just that a couple of the bushing halves rotate with the control arms' sleeve, not around the inner.

By the way, thoroughly enjoying your Type 65 build. That's my next project (if I can get these bushings to cooperate!)

[johnnybgoode]

Thanks, Craig; that has been my thought. As others have mentioned here, the mounting tabs for the rear control arms are not, as you receive them, parallel with each other - both with respect to the individual pairs of them, or between the pairs of tabs. In the case of mine, the bolts securing the arms are very difficult to install, meaning that the alignment of the entire assembly is suboptimal. So, some of the bushings are more compressed against the tabs than others. I have aligned and made parallel everything, so my only remaining options are to accept the fact that one or two of the bushings rotate with the arm, remove material from the bushing flanges, or find very slightly longer inner tubes. The latter option might of course push the tabs out of parallel and create a new problem.

Hoping someone has had to sort through this problem. But I'll have to move in one direction or the other soon, since this is holding up the build!

Thanks

Mark from Breeze makes these sleeves for the lower front bushings. http://www.breezeautomotive.com/details.php?prod_id=601 Not sure if they would fit or could be modified to fit the rear? Scott

[Bill Waters]

Thanks, Scott.

I think I may have figured this thing out. My control arms and tab spacing simply do not match. That is, the span between the inner faces of the outermost tabs is less than the span of the bushing flanges as installed in the control arms. This results in the flanges of the bushings being squeezed between the control arm sleeve and the tab. I presume that my only option is to trim the flanges to relieve the pressure. Supporting this notion is the fact that there is a gap between the inner bushing flange and its tab on the same control arm sleeve.

Does anyone know where the directions are for uploading pics?

Thanks

[AC Bill]

Does anyone know where the directions are for uploading pics?
Thanks

If you have pictures already downloaded to a photo hosting site like Flikr, or Photobucket, you can simply go to the picture you want and copy the images IMG URL, and then paste that to a forum post. This is simple and you can add pictures very easy to a post, that will appear a good page size for the post.

If you have pictures on your hard drive that you want to post, begin your post as you normally would, but on the bottom right click on the "go advanced" box. This will give you a toolbar, that shows a paperclip. Click on that.
It will open a new box that allows you to add a picture, after you click on "add files", then click on "select files". You can choose the file, and then the picture from your hard drive.
Double click on the picture you want to add.
After it loads, click "done".
Your picture should show up as a thumbnail on your post. If someone clicks on it, it will enlarge it.

HTH..

[CraigS]

I ran into that problem w/ my 15 IRS upgrade. The spacing was fine as I welded in the cage using the control arms as locators. But the arms themselves need help. W/ the bushings and sleeves in the arms I stuck a 5/8 rod through one bushing and when it got to the inside of the other bushing it was about 1/4 inch out of alignment. FFR needs to get their jigs straighter. At this point I am just living w/ it but I can see rodends or spherical bearings in my future cause this will bug me.

[Railroad]

I ran into that problem w/ my 15 IRS upgrade. The spacing was fine as I welded in the cage using the control arms as locators. But the arms themselves need help. W/ the bushings and sleeves in the arms I stuck a 5/8 rod through one bushing and when it got to the inside of the other bushing it was about 1/4 inch out of alignment. FFR needs to get their jigs straighter. At this point I am just living w/ it but I can see rodends or spherical bearings in my future cause this will bug me.

I had a similar situation on a totally different car project. I placed a thick washer with the right size hole over the mis drilled one and welded it in place. Had to get a longer bolt, but small price to get it right.

[Mark Dougherty]

bushings locked into control arm, and rotates over the sleeve
thats all folks

[Bill Waters]

Thanks, Bill; very helpful. I'm pretty much committed to having the condition Mark asserts (thanks). Railroad offers a nuclear option (but I'll have to admit, I've considered something like it).

Craig pretty much cites the same condition I am facing. I'll be spending an entire day trying to get this traightened out; I'll let y'all know how it goes.

Thanks all.