Change in Ontario legislation

[wildswing]

Hey fellas,

It's been a very long time since I last posted. No, there's still no car in the garage. Life is simply not cooperating, but I still think there's light at the end of the tunnel, although that light may now have become an oncoming train.

I just received an email from Al Beix at Western Canada Cobras, who forwarded an email from someone in Ontario describing his challenges with a recent change to Ontario provincial legislation. This is a direct copy n paste of that email with individuals names and contact info (other than Al's since we all know him) removed for privacy's sake.

==============================

I received the following from an acquaintance in Ontario that is interested in building a factory Five Kit car.

He has run into a roadblock of immense proportions in the form of recently changed Ontario Dept of Transport regulations that make no provisions what so ever for licensing any car that does not meet every single one of the current Motor vehicle safety act requirements!

The full email he sent me is below my commments, but the critical part reads as follows.

Hi John,
I appreciate that it has been some time that has passed. I do not have anything to report as forward movement on criteria for kit cars.
If you wish for my answer today, it is that the vehicle must meet the criteria of the Passenger/Light-duty Vehicle Inspection Standard to have a safety standards certificate issued. That is not the popular answer for you, nor other hobbyists. However there are no exemptions or modifications in the legislation that apply. I do not have a timetable for such considerations to advise you of.

At the moment this applies to only kit cars, but it is not much of a stretch to see how this could be expanded to anything with wheels that does not meet these requirements. (Think, Collision avoidance, Active Cruise Control, ABS Brake Systems, Anti Upset technology, etc, etc., etc)

The Specialty Vehicle association of Ontario (SVAO) is working with the Ontario provincial Govt and SEMA to see these regulations changed.

If you do nothing else at all in support of our hobby this year I urge you to read the following email and then go to the SVAO web site at Specialty Vehicle Association of Ontario Official Home Page. and click on the JOIN NOW Link on the right side of the page about half way down the page to add you name the the SEMA Action Network.

SEMA is the Specialty Equipment Manufacturers Association and they are a strong and influential lobby group that has been successful in pushing through all manner of legislation that works FOR our hobby in the USA. With a large enough buy in from the Canadian hot rod, kit car and specialty car communities they can be just as effective in Canada. We need to see a minimum of 6000 people sign up for this so lets all get to work and make this happen - for the sake of our hobby!

The other thing you can - in fact MUST do if we are to succeed - is forward this email on to every one of your like minded friends urging them to sign up and pass it on to their friends.

Folks, THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT! With enough pressure from the hot rod and specialty vehicle community we can stop and perhaps even reverse this oppressive legislation before it spreads to the rest of Canada!

The full Email I received follows.

PLEASE - Read and ACT on this!

Your Hobby depends on it!

Regards

AL Beix
Western Canada Cobras



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Date: Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 2:23 PM
Subject: Update from Ontario
To: cdncobraguy at gmail. c o m



Hello Al,

I apologize that it has taken so long since we last talked, but here is the word for word that I got back from our MTO in regards to the new safety standards

Hi XXXX,
I appreciate that it has been some time that has passed. I do not have anything to report as forward movement on criteria for kit cars.
If you wish for my answer today, it is that the vehicle must meet the criteria of the Passenger/Light-duty Vehicle Inspection Standard to have a safety standards certificate issued. That is not the popular answer for you, nor other hobbyists. However there are no exemptions or modifications in the legislation that apply. I do not have a timetable for such considerations to advise you of.


I have found some help from the Gentleman listed below, he is the chairman of the SVAO .Very nice person to talk to and is currently trying to work out some communication with the MTO in regards to this situation. Please feel free to forward or provide this contact information to whom ever you think would benefit. The more support we can generate the better as the regulations affect any vehicle built that does not have pre registration dating back at least a few years
Also if any one would like to contact me for any information as I currently know it please pass along my e-mail as well

The SVAO: Dedicated to the protection and preservation of Specialty Vehicles

Specialty Vehicle Association of Ontario Official Home Page.

XXXXX XXXXXXXX Chairman (###) ###-####



Thank you

XXXX XXXXXXXX

==============================

[CdnCobraGuy]

You can sign up with the SEMA Action Network on their Sign up page at http://pages.message.sema.org/san-signup/

I cannot overstate how important it is that you do so if you wish to see the kit car hobby survive in Ontario, or indeed the entire country.

Please sign up now and spread the word!!!

If anyone wants to talk to me about this I can be contacted by e-mail at [email protected] or on my cell at 250 777-3031


QUOTE=wildswing;270982]Hey fellas,

It's been a very long time since I last posted. No, there's still no car in the garage. Life is simply not cooperating, but I still think there's light at the end of the tunnel, although that light may now have become an oncoming train.

I just received an email from Al Beix at Western Canada Cobras, who forwarded an email from someone in Ontario describing his challenges with a recent change to Ontario provincial legislation. This is a direct copy n paste of that email with individuals names and contact info (other than Al's since we all know him) removed for privacy's sake.

==============================

I received the following from an acquaintance in Ontario that is interested in building a factory Five Kit car.

He has run into a roadblock of immense proportions in the form of recently changed Ontario Dept of Transport regulations that make no provisions what so ever for licensing any car that does not meet every single one of the current Motor vehicle safety act requirements!

The full email he sent me is below my commments, but the critical part reads as follows.

Hi John,
I appreciate that it has been some time that has passed. I do not have anything to report as forward movement on criteria for kit cars.
If you wish for my answer today, it is that the vehicle must meet the criteria of the Passenger/Light-duty Vehicle Inspection Standard to have a safety standards certificate issued. That is not the popular answer for you, nor other hobbyists. However there are no exemptions or modifications in the legislation that apply. I do not have a timetable for such considerations to advise you of.

At the moment this applies to only kit cars, but it is not much of a stretch to see how this could be expanded to anything with wheels that does not meet these requirements. (Think, Collision avoidance, Active Cruise Control, ABS Brake Systems, Anti Upset technology, etc, etc., etc)

The Specialty Vehicle association of Ontario (SVAO) is working with the Ontario provincial Govt and SEMA to see these regulations changed.

If you do nothing else at all in support of our hobby this year I urge you to read the following email and then go to the SVAO web site at Specialty Vehicle Association of Ontario Official Home Page. and click on the JOIN NOW Link on the right side of the page about half way down the page to add you name the the SEMA Action Network.

SEMA is the Specialty Equipment Manufacturers Association and they are a strong and influential lobby group that has been successful in pushing through all manner of legislation that works FOR our hobby in the USA. With a large enough buy in from the Canadian hot rod, kit car and specialty car communities they can be just as effective in Canada. We need to see a minimum of 6000 people sign up for this so lets all get to work and make this happen - for the sake of our hobby!

The other thing you can - in fact MUST do if we are to succeed - is forward this email on to every one of your like minded friends urging them to sign up and pass it on to their friends.

Folks, THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT! With enough pressure from the hot rod and specialty vehicle community we can stop and perhaps even reverse this oppressive legislation before it spreads to the rest of Canada!

The full Email I received follows.

PLEASE - Read and ACT on this!

Your Hobby depends on it!

Regards

AL Beix
Western Canada Cobras



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Date: Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 2:23 PM
Subject: Update from Ontario
To: cdncobraguy at gmail. c o m



Hello Al,

I apologize that it has taken so long since we last talked, but here is the word for word that I got back from our MTO in regards to the new safety standards

Hi XXXX,
I appreciate that it has been some time that has passed. I do not have anything to report as forward movement on criteria for kit cars.
If you wish for my answer today, it is that the vehicle must meet the criteria of the Passenger/Light-duty Vehicle Inspection Standard to have a safety standards certificate issued. That is not the popular answer for you, nor other hobbyists. However there are no exemptions or modifications in the legislation that apply. I do not have a timetable for such considerations to advise you of.


I have found some help from the Gentleman listed below, he is the chairman of the SVAO .Very nice person to talk to and is currently trying to work out some communication with the MTO in regards to this situation. Please feel free to forward or provide this contact information to whom ever you think would benefit. The more support we can generate the better as the regulations affect any vehicle built that does not have pre registration dating back at least a few years
Also if any one would like to contact me for any information as I currently know it please pass along my e-mail as well

The SVAO: Dedicated to the protection and preservation of Specialty Vehicles

Specialty Vehicle Association of Ontario Official Home Page.

XXXXX XXXXXXXX Chairman (###) ###-####



Thank you

XXXX XXXXXXXX

==============================[/QUOTE]

[Dr1v3Fa2T]

This is terrible news, I was just about to bring all my stuff in to get a VIN issued for my 818 but now I guess I have to wait and see if the legislation changes... who knows how long that could take.
I've signed up with the SEMA Action Network as Al suggested, I can't find anything listed under legislation that matches this issue though, do I only need to sign up or is there a petition to sign somewhere that I'm not seeing?

Thanks to Al for being on top of this issue and getting the word out to all of us Canadian builders so that we can take action and hopefully do something about it.

It's long been my dream to build this car and get it on the road to enjoy, I'm so close now and I can't stand to think that it might not be possible because of something like this.

Let's do all we can to keep our hobby alive here in Ontario and hopefully the rest of Canada too.

[JAE]

Hi Everyone

I just signed up at the SEMA Action Network site. Please help get the word out to all past, present and future kit car builders. I just about have enough saved up to purchase a kit (once the exchange rate gets better). Hopefully this can get resolved quickly. A big thank you to Al for bringing this to light.

Thanks John

[Abgar]

Signed up.

[BN]

Signes up

[Jester]

I checked the online Ontario DOT regulations requirements for "Kits" and these changes do not seem to be documented (??). I am confused how changes can be made to the vehicle registration process without having the documented changes available to general public.

Perhaps FFR can chime in on this one for clarification as they have dealt with Canadian regulatory authorities for compliance regarding importation and registration.

The link below outlines the requirements for registration as previously understood - very simple with proper documentation.

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/50-insu...io-canada.html

[valin]

I just spoke to two different MTO representatives about this, as it was also news to me. Both representatives confirmed to me that no changes have been made to the process of registering a kit car in Ontario. A standard safety inspection is needed, a signed affidavit, and the import paperwork is required. There are no additional inspections required, nor do we need to meet current safety standards in terms of airbags, seatbelts, emissions, etc.

[Jonathan427]

Hi,

I'm in the unfortunate position of having imported a kit, after waiting for 15 years for the right time, now I'm told in Ontario that for a vehicle first registered in 2017, it has to meet ALL of the Light Vehicle Standards for 2017. Thus it needs airbags, ABS, ESC and all of the Federally Mandated Safety Standards for a 2017 vehicle. This change, effective either July 1, 2016 but certainly 1/1/2017, also stands for Hot Rods, and substantially changed cars - so if a real 1965 Cobra gets a new chassis or engine, then it, too, must be re-registered. The previous standards of merely getting a Structural Certificate and a Safety Certificate are no longer good enough. The vehicle must meet all of the applicable safety standards for the year of manufacture, which is assembly, which is today, which is impossible.

Be aware that these standards may also be applied to any re-plating, so if you buy a used FFR, you may also need to meet these new regulations.

I spoke with Sam, in "Branding" at MTO, local 6312, who seemed to know what he was talking about, and really offered no suggestions.

[totem]

"Hi John,
I appreciate that it has been some time that has passed. I do not have anything to report as forward movement on criteria for kit cars. If you wish for my answer today, it is that the vehicle must meet the criteria of the Passenger/Light-duty Vehicle Inspection Standard to have a safety standards certificate issued. "

This is the Standard: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/tru...n-standard.pdf
I do not see anything that cannot be met. These are very basic safety items.

I just registered my car in Quebec. I needed wipers, washer, FMVSS seat belt, driver seat rear, DOT third brake and backup light.

If you are expecting a waiver, you won't get it. Just follow the book.

[Lumpyguy]

I just registered my 818S at the MOT license office back on Nov 11/16 and registered it as a 2014 vehicle as the certificate and paper work say its a 2014. I gave them copies of all my paperwork import papers, donor car pares, and all my parts I bought. they did not ask for an affidavit. and 20min later and 10 bucks they gave me a green vehicle ownership with KIT VIN number.

[SingleMaltWSKY]

I just registered my 818S at the MOT license office back on Nov 11/16 and registered it as a 2014 vehicle as the certificate and paper work say its a 2014. I gave them copies of all my paperwork import papers, donor car pares, and all my parts I bought. they did not ask for an affidavit. and 20min later and 10 bucks they gave me a green vehicle ownership with KIT VIN number.

It's frustrating - I just had a similar experience to yours with a Type-65 in London ON. Walked in with my receipts, paperwork from the ministry for kit import. They registered the car as a 2017 KIT with a VIN identical to my FFR serial, no affidavit but they did take photocopies of all of my receipts from the kit supplier as well as the completion parts to make sure I paid Canadian taxes . HOWEVER - I had to pay taxes on the kit again at 8%....way more than $10.

Looking over the safety requirements I don't see anything there that's impossible to meet - the lamp requirements may have us making more space on the body for additional lamps and reflectors.

[Jonathan427]

Hi. Jonas, Lumpy and totem......

This is from Section 11 of the revised Ontario Safety manual (Passenger / Light-Duty Vehicle Inspection Standard July 2015, in effect July 2016.....

Stability Control Systems are required for
motor vehicles manufactured on or after
September 1, 2011, or September 1,
2012, for multistage manufactured
vehicles (for example, body mounted on
cab and chassis).

According to my reading, a 2014 FFR 818 would need ESC......

Since you three are about to register (not just a VIN, get current plates)

Please, please let the forum know of your results!

Now, there is a chance that a less efficient tester might not realize that ESC is now required.......

Thanks, nervously,

Jonathan

[Lumpyguy]

It might pay to have friends in high places!

I have an email into the MTO to ask if my 2014 Factory five 818 needs ESC, I was told by my garage friend that if the vehicle was built with it it has to work if the vehicle never had it you are good.

we will see.

[valin]

I have several calls into various MTO departments on this matter to try to get some clarification.

The following is directly off of MTO's website, which is up to date on all policies. It says that ESC must be on MOST vehicles weighing less than 4536 kg, and manufactured after September 1, 2011. Most does not mean all. I will report back with clarification regarding this statement.


What is Transport Canada's position on ESC?

We want Canada to have the safest roads in the world. That is why we explored ways to make ESC available on new passenger vehicles sold in Canada as quickly as possible.

In fact, we have introduced a new Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standard that will require that an ESC system be installed on most vehicles with a gross vehicle weight of 4536 kg or less and manufactured on or after September 1, 2011. This will reduce the number of collisions where the driver loses control of the vehicle.

Canada also helped develop a global technical regulation for ESC under the United Nations World Forum for Harmonization of Vehicle Regulations (WP.29), which was adopted in June 2008. Canada's standard for ESC is harmonized with that of the United States and very similar to that developed by WP.29. This will help promote international trade.

Transport Canada encourages the manufacturers to offer ESC as standard equipment on all their vehicles. We have already negotiated an agreement with light-duty vehicle manufacturers to ensure that ESC is offered voluntarily on the same vehicles in Canada as in the United States. Letters of commitment and of agreement were signed by the two Canadian motor vehicle manufacturer associations, which will allow Transport Canada to:

monitor the fitment rate of ESC before the standard is implemented; and
provide information to consumers on the availability of ESC on Canadian vehicles.
Finally, the department encourages all Canadians to ask for ESC when they shop for their new vehicle.

[Lumpyguy]

I got a response from Transport Canada that there are not requirements for any systems like that on kit cars, but to contact the MTO to verify what they say. I have the email and will post it here what I can.

I have an email into the MTO but have not heard back

[AC Bill]

I'm sure they are looking at someone building turnkey cars to sell, not home built one-offs, with these new regs.

[Jonathan427]

Hi,

Firstly, has anyone actually received plates, safety, sticker etc. for a 2016 or 2017 ONTARIO registered FFR? Not just the registration, but actually put it on the road? It seems that this all happened after July 2016 and is certainly in effect for 2017.

Secondly, I just received this from Al Beix....

Ontario needs a spokesperson for the Kit car Industry, Might it be you??

Since my last communication on the subject of the revised Ontario MOT regulations that provide no accommodation for the licensing of Kit cars I have been in touch with Chris Whillans who is the the chairman of the Ontario Specialty Vehicle Owners Association.

The SVAO has only recently become aware of these revised regulations and is looking to find an Ontario politician who understands the importance of the Car culture in its many different facets - including kit cars. I you know of a Gear head friendly Ontario Provincial politician please get in touch with Chris at one of the contact point listed below.

They are also hoping to find a Kit Car Organization in Ontario that can speak with the SVAO as part of a unified voice to the politicians who are the only ones that can enact favorable changes to the existing legislation.

As I explained to Chris, to the best of my knowledge such an organization does not, at this time, exist in Ontario. If any one in Ontario is aware of such an organization I urge you to put said folks in touch with Chris at any of the following contact points. By Phone at 905 649-2664 or by E-mail at [email protected].

In the event that there is indeed no current organization I would urge any one of you in Ontario to consider acting as the lightning rod that sparks the birth of an Ontario Kit car Owners Association as this will be instrumental, IN co-operation with the SVAO in helping the Ontario Politicians understand the omission of kit car licensing in the new revised regulations.

As I mentioned to Chris in our discussion, I do not believe the omission of kit cars in the revised legislation was done as an aggressive move against the hobby so much as kit cars were simply not on their radar screen when they laid down the new legislation, and raising the kit car hobby on their radar in a nut shell is what now needs to happen.

If you have even a remote interest in the kit car hobby I urge you to get involved for the sake of your own personal interest, the kit car hobby in Ontario and the rest of Canada as if we cannot change this insanity in Ontario it is only a matter of time before it spreads like a bad virus across the entire country.

Until next time....................

Regards

AL Beix
www.westerncanadacobras.com
250 777-3031

Any politicians or friends of politicians? Anyone who wants to mobilize?

Thanks,

Jonathan
Kit in cold garage, waiting for spring!

[conger]

Hi Fellas

I just registered and plated my FFR Mk4 in Edmonton last month. I had to jump thru all the hoops as well. My vin is a 2012 number and the standard I had to meet. So wipers, washer, 3rd brake,blah blah blah to pass. This might be an avenue to persue exemptions.
One of the things I was expected to have was a "low brake pressure warning light" I had an idea of how to do it but needed some clarification of what AB transportation wanted. Loss of line pressure or fluid loss from the reservoir. The inspector referred to the engineer in charge and here's the the ruling. I didn't need either system because the car wasn't designed for it.
So that might be something to explore with regards to some of the unreasonable demands by MTO.

Gerry

[CdnCobraGuy]

"Hi John,
I appreciate that it has been some time that has passed. I do not have anything to report as forward movement on criteria for kit cars. If you wish for my answer today, it is that the vehicle must meet the criteria of the Passenger/Light-duty Vehicle Inspection Standard to have a safety standards certificate issued. "

This is the Standard: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/tru...n-standard.pdf
I do not see anything that cannot be met. These are very basic safety items.

I just registered my car in Quebec. I needed wipers, washer, FMVSS seat belt, driver seat rear, DOT third brake and backup light.

If you are expecting a waiver, you won't get it. Just follow the book.

Apparently the author of the bold faced statement does not understand what is involved in installing a Stability control system in a vehicle - Far beyond what the average home builder will be able, or want to do.

Also in reading through the Ontario MOT inspection manual I find the following Quote

Note:
Stability Control Systems are required for
motor vehicles manufactured on or after
September 1, 2011, or September 1,
2012, for multistage manufactured
vehicles (for example, body mounted on
cab and chassis).

Stability control depends on having computers that can monitor and respond to virtually everything going on in a vehicle as it moves down the road including wheel speed relative to vehicle speed (ABS), body attitude in pitch, and yaw, etc, etc. As I said earlied, far beyond what a home builder can or would even want to get involved in.

[SingleMaltWSKY]

I was at a hotrod show in London Ontario a few weeks ago and spoke with some of the SVAO membership (joined the organization and signed a local petition) as well as some other FFR owners that are going through the registration and plating process in Ontario.

In speaking with a local mechanic, the real key here is the language that is on the inspection - "as originally equipped" is language that you'll find a lot. If your vehicle was never originally equipped with ABS or ECS it will not have to meet these system requirements. I called Service Ontario as well as chatted with the girls at my local MTO offices and they also confirmed that Kit cars would not be required to meet those electronic systems requirements as it was "not originally equipped". If I was to somehow assign or use a VIN of a vehicle that had one of those systems noted as standard equipment - the inspection would require that these systems be present and operational.

Lamp placement, 3rd brake light etc however do not have this language - so if you get a very sticky inspector they could spot you for incorrect lamp or reflector location.

For now, I have my ownership processed and also have a decent amount of mechanic friends that will assist me through the process one we get to plating. It's a ways off, but I'm confident it will happen.

[Lumpyguy]

This in exactly what I was told as well by my Mechanic friends, I was told only if the vehicle came equiped with it that it has to be there and working.

as for 3rd brake light I added a motorcycle LED strip up high as an upgrade to make the back look better not to meet any requirement.

[JAE]

Well it looks like there may be a bit of good news here. Unfortunately,I do find that generally when something is open to interpretation in a goverment agency you won't get the same answer from any two people there. Hopefully with the help of the SVAO we can get specific wording and exemptions in place for kit cars.

Thanks John

[totem]

This thread is bogus. It is all based on a say from Jonathan who got an email from Al who got information from John who got an answer from Someone to a question asking if all rules have to be folllowed. Guess what is the answer?

Yes there is a "Note" in the Passenger/Light-duty Vehicle Inspection Standard that says that "Stability Control Systems" (plural!) are required. Stability Control Systems is not defined. If you read the inspection procedure to "reject" a car, you see that an inspector following the standard has no way to reject a car unless there is a check light (tell-tale).

You have more chance of success if you argue that the inspector must follow the Standard, that there is no check light, that there is no way to test absence or function of stability control, rather that trying to argue that kit car don't need to follow rules or that "Stability control depends on having computers that can monitor and respond to virtually everything".

You need to be creative with interpretation. For example, does a kit car need side marker light? Yes.
Is the roadster equiped with side marker? Yes, the bullet shaped tail light and front flashers are visible from the side and provide the side marker function.
See my point? It's easier to demonstrate that you have side marker than to convince an inspector to you don't need them.

[Jester]

Totem x 2.

The process is not difficult and there have been no changes to the requirements according to the online documentation available at the MOT.

I suggest the forum admin close or erase this thread as it is misrepresenting the process. The process is well documented and many have successfully registered FFR kits in ontario.

[SingleMaltWSKY]

I suggest the forum admin close or erase this thread as it is misrepresenting the process. The process is well documented and many have successfully registered FFR kits in ontario.

I get your point - but note there was a change in July timeframe of last year to the regulations. I think questioning and pouring through the possible pitfalls is a good exercise. If you're in Ontario I highly recommend joining the SVAO membership at http://www.iwebhosting.ca/svao/.

[Jonathan427]

Hi, guys,

The last thing I want to do is post anything bogus. I've invested $20,000 into my kit, and I know some of you have invested very much more, and have been helped many times by other forum members. Nothing would please me more than to delete all my posts, but I genuinely believe that we new builders may have a problem, and nobody yet has any more than theories, and I include myself in that category.

I'm sorry that Jester, Totem and others think that this thread is bogus, but the original warning came from Al Beix, who used to be the sole FFR authorized importer of kits. I took the trouble to contact the Ontario Ministry of Transport, and spoke to several individuals and got through after several attempts to an official (I'm sorry I do not have his name, rank or serial number) who explained the current legislation to me in detail. This change in legislation is enough to worry several parties, including the SVAO. I also took the time to download the MTO Certification documentation, and post the relevant sections, chapter and verse, to this forum in an attempt to help other actual and potential FFR builders. This all changed in July of 2016 for 2016 and 2017 model year light vehicles, with no exceptions in the legislation for kits. All new light vehicles for sale in Ontario have ESC, including the cheapest $9,998 Mitsubishi Mirage. They would likely not include ESC unless they had to.

I've also asked that any Ontario builders, who have not just obtained a 2017 or 2016 VIN, but actually obtained a Safety Check and plate sticker from a mechanic who is not connected to them, to post that information to this forum so that we can all learn from their experience. It's been nearly a month now, and so far there have been precisely zero such completed Ontario registrations of kits with 2017-dated VIN's, and again, this is not about obtaining a VIN, its' obtaining a valid safety check from an arms length inspector.

So before we declare all this as Fake News, perhaps we need to get some actual safety checks, in Ontario, of 2017 VIN's?

Thank you,

Jonathan

[AC Bill]

I hope you guys back east don't have any new issues preventing you from getting your car on the road.

One thing I have learned when dealing with government employees at any level is, that most of them have no idea what exactly the rules and regulations are, in their own departments. Talk to five different people, and they all have a different understanding. Many of the ones that speak with the utmost confidence of their vast knowledge, have it mixed up even worse. Then there is the vastly different interpretations of a regulation, all depending on the individual your dealing with at that particular moment.

Even worse is that of the the hundreds of govt regulations you may find on the internet, aren't always current. They have been revised, ammended, or corrected, since first being posted. Some employee was probably supposed to delete or update them, but is away on maternity leave...

[Lumpyguy]

If people don't mind asking what does everyone consider electronics stability control? ABS? Traction control of some sort? You have to define what contitues "ESC".

[SingleMaltWSKY]

If people don't mind asking what does everyone consider electronics stability control? ABS? Traction control of some sort? You have to define what contitues "ESC".

My own definition:
ESC is a system that reduces loss of traction and stability, but unlike ABS or traction control, ESC uses the brakes or other systems to help correct the vehicles course to regain traction and control.

That's my take anyway.

[Lumpyguy]

so if you were to install a traction control system with wheel sensors in the rear that would cut cylinders out to reduce power when wheel spin occurs does any one think this might surfice?!? ie Racelogic type system

[valin]

This is not an issue. It is not required. I have spoken to many people from all branches of Transport Canada, the MTO, and several different shops that regularly safety vehicles. ESC is not a requirement. It is not a difficult process, so please do not make it out to seem like it is.

There are vehicles produced here in Canada that were produced after November, 2011 that did not come equipped with ESC, and they are still able to safety them.

[Slyboots]

Definition from transport Canada below. I will leave it to readers to interpret this on their own.

---
What is Electronic Stability Control?
Electronic Stability Control (or ESC) is a system found on several recent vehicles that will help you stay in control of your vehicle when you need to swerve or brake suddenly to avoid an obstacle.

When your steering does not match the direction of your vehicle, ESC will automatically brake one or more wheels for short periods of time, reduce engine power, or both.

ESC is "ON" whenever you start your vehicle. Some vehicles have a manual ESC Off switch for certain situations such as when you are stuck in snow.
---

[valin]

Guys, ESC is not a requirement on a car you build. ESC is required ONLY on new vehicles that are manufactured. Our cars are not manufactured.....they are a single build. Both Transport Canada and the MTO have confirmed this. This thread needs to be closed. It is a non issue.