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Thread: another power steering thread

  1. #1
    Member kobra01's Avatar
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    another power steering thread

    Hi All,

    Sorry but I have looked through a lot of power steering threads and have not found a solution. I took over this build and this is what I have. I have a MK4, ford performance x427 (351 block), looks like a long type new style water pump, CVF v-belt pulleys, 2 groove crank, 1 groove water pump, 1 groove alternator, crank to water pump to alternator work fine. I have a nice Saginaw power steering pump and a CVF mount but the mount and the pulley hit the steering shaft. I need a shorter mount something that brings the power steering pump closer to the water pump. Is there another Saginaw power steering mount that will work for me?

    Thanks for any suggestions.

    Ken

  2. #2
    Senior Member mcwho's Avatar
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    Have you poured thru the catalogs of the many many options for power steering pumps? I am not that familiar with the front of a 351 vs a 302 based engine. Can you post pictures, as they can be helpful to get your issue resolved. I decided early to go with PS, my builder set it all up for me, I added a HEIDTS valve which gives me some adjustability in steering force.

    Bob
    Baghdad Bob

    Complete Kit ordered Feb 2009, Delivered July 2010, serial @ 7287, Power Brakes, Power Steering w HEIDTS Valve, Hydralic clutch, 15" Wheels, BFG Tires, 331 stroker w Edelbrock Performer RPM Heads, Edelbrock Performer Air Gap Intake and Quick Fuel 650 carb. IRS w 3.27, TKO-600.

  3. #3
    No disrespect but you have a fairly odd combination with v-belts and the Saginaw pump. Is there any possibility you can exchange the current pump for either the Ford unit or a GM type II ? You should be able to find brackets for either of those. You also may want to give Mark Reynolds from Breeze a call and see if he can help you out. Good Luck. Scott

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by kobra01 View Post
    Hi All,

    Sorry but I have looked through a lot of power steering threads and have not found a solution. I took over this build and this is what I have. I have a MK4, ford performance x427 (351 block), looks like a long type new style water pump, CVF v-belt pulleys, 2 groove crank, 1 groove water pump, 1 groove alternator, crank to water pump to alternator work fine. I have a nice Saginaw power steering pump and a CVF mount but the mount and the pulley hit the steering shaft. I need a shorter mount something that brings the power steering pump closer to the water pump. Is there another Saginaw power steering mount that will work for me?

    Thanks for any suggestions.

    Ken

    Your singing my woes Ken,

    check this thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-fitment-issue

    I spent quite a bit of time fudging brackets etc. to get a Saginaw pump to fit. In the end, I gave KRC out of Kennesaw GA a buzz and spoke to the owner. He hooked me right up. Cost me some $$$ to get to where I wanted to be but I have a much better pump than a GM style Saginaw and the sucker fits. Summit sells them as well but I got the pump and pulley directly from KRC. Bracket I got from summit.

    You can get pump in many configurations (tank mounted to pump/or remote tank). I'm not running a V-belt but I'm sure he can accommodate you.
    Last edited by RickP; 04-07-2017 at 11:27 AM.

  5. #5
    Member kobra01's Avatar
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    Thanks guys for the suggestions. If any other ideas please post them.
    This is what I decided to try first. I talked to the guys at CVF racing and they are aware of the fitment issue with the FFR cobra and after market pulley systems using a Saginaw pump. They are very knowledgeable and willing to help. To make the Saginaw p/s work I have to change the water pump (mine looks like a Chinese piece of crap so I don't mind upgrading the pump) and use their 351 Cleveland p/s mount as it has the proper mounting bolt holes to move the pump up and over a little. For me the water pump is less expensive than a new belt kit and they will swap the mounts. Pump should be here next week. Will let you know what happens.

    Thanks,
    Ken

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by kobra01 View Post
    Thanks guys for the suggestions. If any other ideas please post them.
    This is what I decided to try first. I talked to the guys at CVF racing and they are aware of the fitment issue with the FFR cobra and after market pulley systems using a Saginaw pump. They are very knowledgeable and willing to help. To make the Saginaw p/s work I have to change the water pump (mine looks like a Chinese piece of crap so I don't mind upgrading the pump) and use their 351 Cleveland p/s mount as it has the proper mounting bolt holes to move the pump up and over a little. For me the water pump is less expensive than a new belt kit and they will swap the mounts. Pump should be here next week. Will let you know what happens.

    Thanks,
    Ken
    Be cautious Ken,

    What CVF told you is exactly what they told me. The problem with their solution is the water pump they recommended would require a different timing cover. I asked them to send me the bolt hole pattern of their water pump and it won't bolt up to the stock timing cover. If you add up the cost of pump, cover, gaskets etc, not including time, it's WAY cheaper and more effective to invest in a KRC pump kit.

    just my two cents.

  7. #7
    I'm A newbie on these cars. Mine is a 302 (5.0L Cobra) and has the Ford PS pump driving the power steering rack. However I saw a thread a short while ago about a guy who designed a setup with electric PS. His kit includes all components including a rheostat that is mounted below the dash to adjust the amount of power assistance. There are many advantages to electric; 1) it's not creating parasitic losses on your engine. 2) it won't leak fluid. 3) it's adjustable on the fly

    Many new vehicles now come with electric PS. My 2015 F-150 and my 2015 Corvette Z06 to name two. Feel is good and effort is minimal. However as I said I'm a newbie to the FFR roadster and the guys on this forum know a whole lot more than I ever will.

  8. #8
    Member kobra01's Avatar
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    RickP, thanks for the heads up. I guess I will visually try to line up the bolts for the new water pump before I take anything apart. I'd be upset to take it apart to find out it doesn't fit.

    Melb-Mike, Electric p/s is the way to go. I went from manual steering on my offroad car to electric p/s and that was the best upgrade I ever did. If changing the water pump doesn't work I thought about electric p/s and was told I should stay with the a pump system. So if changing the water pump and bracket doesn't work I will just by a new serpentine belt system that works.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by kobra01 View Post
    RickP, thanks for the heads up. I guess I will visually try to line up the bolts for the new water pump before I take anything apart. I'd be upset to take it apart to find out it doesn't fit.

    Melb-Mike, Electric p/s is the way to go. I went from manual steering on my offroad car to electric p/s and that was the best upgrade I ever did. If changing the water pump doesn't work I thought about electric p/s and was told I should stay with the a pump system. So if changing the water pump and bracket doesn't work I will just by a new serpentine belt system that works.
    I feel your pain Ken. Been there and done it. Let us know how you make out and good luck.

  10. #10
    Assuming Mark Reynolds from Breeze doesn't have something off the shelf, is Fast Freddie's power steering kit http://www.fastfreddiesfabrications....p?id_product=4 competitive price-wise?

    Just throwing out options.


    John
    MK IV Roadster #8631
    Ford 302, Holley Terminator EFI, T5z, 3.55 Rear End, IRS, 17” Halibrand Replicas (9” front, 10.5” rear), Nitto 555 G2’s (275/40ZR17 front, 315/35ZR17 rear), Fast Freddie’s Power Steering, F5 Wilwood Brakes, FFMetal’s Firewall Forward, Forte’s Hydraulic Clutch & Throttle Linkage

  11. #11
    Member kobra01's Avatar
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    I finished up the power steering a while ago but just now getting around to posting it. Because I took over this build I already had the parts, so I wanted to make it work with what I had. I really like the KRC and Breeze setups with a remote reservoir, I'm sure they work well and they look cool.

    So when I called CVF Racing with the problem of the p/s pump hitting the steering shaft they are aware of this problem and they said to replace the water pump with there 351 Cleveland water pump and the bracket to go with it, that's what I did. Everything lined up okay and the p/s pump now clears the steering shaft. The guys at CVF Racing are very knowledgeable and great to work with.

    Parts used:
    CVF Saginaw p/s pump and Cleveland bracket
    CVF Cleveland water pump
    CVF pressure valve
    Breeze adapter fittings for pump and rack
    6an PTFE stainless hose pressure side
    8an PTFE stainless hose return side
    6an PTFE 150 degree hose end on p/s pump and rack
    8an PTFE 150 degree hose end on rack
    Still need a couple more spacers
    P1000858 (2).jpgP1000860(2).jpgP1000861(2).jpgP1000862(2).jpg

  12. #12
    Senior Member chopthebass's Avatar
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    I am moving to electric power steering, and am installing a Volvo V50 pump. This was recommended by my engine guy and saves the complication of changing stuff on my 351W stroker. I maybe the first to try this idea!
    Finally started my build the beginning July. 2015!

  13. #13
    Member kobra01's Avatar
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    If someone fabricated an electric p/s system where the mount was welded or bolted to something other than the 3/4" rails I would consider it. I had electric p/s on my off-road cars and it worked very well, no hydraulic fluid and relatively inexpensive.

  14. #14
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chopthebass View Post
    I am moving to electric power steering, and am installing a Volvo V50 pump. This was recommended by my engine guy and saves the complication of changing stuff on my 351W stroker. I maybe the first to try this idea!
    Quote Originally Posted by kobra01 View Post
    If someone fabricated an electric p/s system where the mount was welded or bolted to something other than the 3/4" rails I would consider it. I had electric p/s on my off-road cars and it worked very well, no hydraulic fluid and relatively inexpensive.
    When discussing electric power steering, there are two options. Important to differentiate which is being discussed.

    (1) Using an electric pump to replace the engine driven PS pump. Hydraulic pressure is delivered from the electric pump to a traditional PS rack. All other kit components remain the same, including the steering shaft. The kit offered by Fast Freddies is this variety. Uses a Denso pump BTW, originally used in a Toyota MR2. The Volvo V50 pump appears to be a similar approach.

    (2) Using an electric assist unit directly on the steering shaft, controlled by a microprocessor. Unisteer offers a unit like this which FF has available for the 33 hot rod. I've seen where several have fit this unit on a Roadster. Others are adopting an assist module originally used on Saturns. Perhaps there are others. This is the one I'm assuming kobra01 is describing as attaching to the 3/4-inch rails.

    I installed the Fast Freddies setup on #7750. Other than a little work to make it fit on the round tubes of the Mk4, it worked very well. Used it to power both the steering and hydroboost power brakes. Allowed me to leave the front dress on the DART small block a standard and simple serpentine belt drive for only the water pump and alternator.

    Last edited by edwardb; 08-11-2017 at 02:26 PM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
    Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. #7750 Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. 03 of 20. 2015 crate Coyote, 2015 IRS. Legal 04/18/2017. #8674 Build Thread
    Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Delivered 12/2/2017. #59 Coupe Build Thread

  15. #15
    Senior Member chopthebass's Avatar
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    Hey Ed,
    No the V50 pump isn't directly on steering shaft. It is remote, with just send and return, and three electrical connections.
    Finally started my build the beginning July. 2015!

  16. #16
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chopthebass View Post
    Hey Ed,
    No the V50 pump isn't directly on steering shaft. It is remote, with just send and return, and three electrical connections.
    That's what I said. I described the V20 as the same similar setup as Fast Freddies with the Denso pump and using a standard PS rack. Versus option 2 which I described as on the steering shaft.

    My post was intended to clarify (apparently not too well...) that when guys say "electric power steering" it could mean two different things.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
    Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. #7750 Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. 03 of 20. 2015 crate Coyote, 2015 IRS. Legal 04/18/2017. #8674 Build Thread
    Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Delivered 12/2/2017. #59 Coupe Build Thread

  17. #17
    Senior Member chopthebass's Avatar
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    Sorry Ed! I need to learn the lingo better!

    I hope the PS works ok. I really didn't think manual steering would be as hard as it is!
    Finally started my build the beginning July. 2015!

  18. #18
    Member kobra01's Avatar
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    I wasn't aware of the electric pump system. Definitely has some good features but still has fluid. Electric assist, manual rack, simple system is what I am familiar with. Both are better than what I have.
    MK4 Roadster # 8548, Ford Performance X427, TKO 600, 8.8 3 Link

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by kobra01 View Post
    I wasn't aware of the electric pump system. Definitely has some good features but still has fluid. Electric assist, manual rack, simple system is what I am familiar with. Both are better than what I have.
    I'm with you on this. It seems to me that using an electric motor to drive a hydraulic pump to operate the PS rack is way too much machinery when you can simply have an electric motor on your steering shaft assist your steering. Another advantage of this as I understand it, you can adjust the amount of assist. That to me is a huge advantage, turning a rheostat on the dash to suit your needs. As you said, no fluid to leak and reduced maintenance items.

  20. #20
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melb-Mike View Post
    I'm with you on this. It seems to me that using an electric motor to drive a hydraulic pump to operate the PS rack is way too much machinery when you can simply have an electric motor on your steering shaft assist your steering. Another advantage of this as I understand it, you can adjust the amount of assist. That to me is a huge advantage, turning a rheostat on the dash to suit your needs. As you said, no fluid to leak and reduced maintenance items.
    Can't disagree in general. PS pumps, reservoirs, racks, fluid, hoses, etc. have been around for decades and properly installed are typically low maintenance. But the point is well taken. On the surface the all electric assisted steering shaft is the simplest and potentially lowest maintenance approach. There's a reason it's becoming more and more commonplace on DD's. Some have reported it has kind of a "dead" feeling. That's pretty subjective though. Very likely a function of how well the system is programmed and performs.

    The Fast Freddie electric pump system with the Denso pump does have a boost adjustment on the pump itself BTW. So it's possible to dial in the amount of boost you want. I found it to be effective to get it where I liked it. But not from the driver's seat obviously.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
    Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. #7750 Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. 03 of 20. 2015 crate Coyote, 2015 IRS. Legal 04/18/2017. #8674 Build Thread
    Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Delivered 12/2/2017. #59 Coupe Build Thread

  21. #21
    My 2015 F-150 with 3.5L EcoBoost motor has electric PS. It doesn't have a dead feel, and in fact if you didn't know it, you'd think it was hydraulic assist. It certainly contributes to fuel savings and to me, it feels great. For that matter so does my 2015 Corvette Z06 with electric PS.

  22. #22
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melb-Mike View Post
    My 2015 F-150 with 3.5L EcoBoost motor has electric PS. It doesn't have a dead feel, and in fact if you didn't know it, you'd think it was hydraulic assist. It certainly contributes to fuel savings and to me, it feels great. For that matter so does my 2015 Corvette Z06 with electric PS.
    I should have been more specific in my description. I was referring to reviews posted on this forum from the few electric assist conversions that have been reported for our builds here. Not a general statement about that design in general. And again, that's a purely subjective observation. Others have reported they liked it. All in the eye of the beholder I guess.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
    Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. #7750 Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. 03 of 20. 2015 crate Coyote, 2015 IRS. Legal 04/18/2017. #8674 Build Thread
    Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Delivered 12/2/2017. #59 Coupe Build Thread

  23. #23
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    Nearly every first generation all electric power steering got bad reviews for feel. The OE systems are now getting much better reviews. Some even get good reviews. Where the aftermarket systems are in that progression is a question. A system using a Saturn electric assist I would have to think is in line w/ the first gen systems. As Bob says, "All in the eye of the beholder I guess".
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by kobra01 View Post
    Thanks guys for the suggestions. If any other ideas please post them.
    This is what I decided to try first. I talked to the guys at CVF racing and they are aware of the fitment issue with the FFR cobra and after market pulley systems using a Saginaw pump. They are very knowledgeable and willing to help. To make the Saginaw p/s work I have to change the water pump (mine looks like a Chinese piece of crap so I don't mind upgrading the pump) and use their 351 Cleveland p/s mount as it has the proper mounting bolt holes to move the pump up and over a little. For me the water pump is less expensive than a new belt kit and they will swap the mounts. Pump should be here next week. Will let you know what happens.

    Thanks,
    Ken
    Thanks for posting,
    I ended up in the same situation and Steve over at CVF had me all sorted out the same day, got a Cleveland style water pump and bracket on it's way.
    Mike
    Last edited by MikeC; 11-20-2017 at 07:41 PM. Reason: Didn't realize they were not a supporting vendor

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Melb-Mike View Post
    There are many advantages to electric; 1) it's not creating parasitic losses on your engine.
    Yes, it actually is. That electricity is coming from your alternator. The more current you draw on your alternator, the harder it is to turn, and your engine is turning it.
    It can be true on a race car where electrical accessories are run from a battery only, like on a drag car. But not on a street car.

    It may be more efficient, but it's not free energy.

  26. #26
    Member kobra01's Avatar
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    MikeC, If you have any questions, let me know.
    MK4 Roadster # 8548, Ford Performance X427, TKO 600, 8.8 3 Link

  27. #27
    I had electric power steering in my Turbo Cobalt (500hp with torque steer btw) and it was great when moving and felt great in corners and on the street. The only noticeable power steering "feel" was there was lag at idle and while moving in the driveway. This was by no means a deal breaker and was the same steering unit as the vue/equinox first gen unit.

    These systems can also be disabled in the event you want to track your car; as some of you do. I am a techie and feel this is the best value for the PS crowd. It doesnt require servicing, pumps, etc. The parasitic drag at say 720 watts (14.4 volts x 50 amps on the Vue/Cobalt/Equinox/GM unit) converts to about .93 horsepower. I would say that is darn near free compared to what a hydraulic pump pulls from the engine. Electric is always going to be more efficient, that is why hybrid vehicles get great MPG
    Last edited by TexasAviator; 11-22-2017 at 06:44 PM. Reason: added last sentence
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