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Thread: Gen 1 measurements please

  1. #1
    Administrator 65 Cobra Dude's Avatar
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    Gen 1 measurements please

    Folks,

    Can someone do me a favor and measure the two distances between the nose mounts (outside to outside) - please see the pictures below:

    IMG_1498.JPG

    IMG_1499.JPG

    IMG_1500.JPG

    IMG_1501.JPG


    Thank you,

    Henry

  2. #2
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    I should be able to stop by my shop this evening and take those measurements, if someone doesn't respond sooner.

  3. #3
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    Here you go. This is from a Gen II but to the very best of my knowledge those bars stayed the same from Gen I to Gen II. Also, I think the "X" in front of the engine changed to round tubing, as in your photos, around when the Gen II came out (early 2011 if I recall correctly). Let me know if you need any other measurements.

    Measurements 1 .JPG

    Measurements 2.JPG

  4. #4
    Henry,

    These have been known to need a push in either direction to line the nose up as well.
    They have to line up with the centers of the fog light buckets.

    HTH

    John
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  5. #5
    Administrator 65 Cobra Dude's Avatar
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    Awesome - thank you for the quick turn help guys! Happy Easter!

    Henry

  6. #6
    Senior Member Carlos C's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Jacob McCrea;276123]Here you go. This is from a Gen II but to the very best of my knowledge those bars stayed the same from Gen I to Gen II. Also, I think the "X" in front of the engine changed to round tubing, as in your photos, around when the Gen II came out (early 2011 if I recall correctly). Let me know if you need any other measurements.QUOTE]

    Jacob:

    The photos are actually from my car. It's actually a Gen 2, not a Gen 1. Henry just got confused.

    The problem I'm having is that the passenger upper control arm front mounting bolt hole will not align with the UCA's bracket hole. This is due to the UCA shaft making contact with the 1" tubing going forward, used to mount the hood. The misalignment is about 1/4" when using the top holes with the donor's spindles. The driver side UCA was a tight fit, but no modification were needed to mount on the top holes.


    Here's the UCA shaft making contact with the 1" tubing prior to aligning to front mounting hole.


    Close-up of the holes misalignment. This is about 1/4", which is fairly significant. Can't open up the holes in suspension parts, which could lead in unwanted movement of the arm.

    FFR sent me their spindles so I'd use the bracket's side mounting holes, but unfortunately, my brake system does not work with their spindles. FFR gave me two options:
    1. Spend $921 for their brakes, although my brakes are far superior, and I don't believe I should spend almost $1K to rectify a mistake made at their welding shop, or
    2. "Bend" the 1" tubing. In my opinion, that's not a professional or viable solution, and if I end up crushing or damaging this tubing in any way while attempting to "bend" it, I'm sure FFR will not be held responsible for the damages.

    After looking at Jacob's photos, it seems that my tubing were welded 1/8" further apart at the "X" member than mine (assuming that we both took the readings exactly the same way and at the same location). That would account for part of the interference. After closely looking at the UCA bracket, I'm afraid that this piece may have been welded out of place. I took measurements on this bracket, including the location of the bolt holes themselves, and everything seems to be in place, except the angle of the bracket itself in the front. As far as I can tell, it was welded slightly inward.

    Since it seems that the only option I'm being left with is fixing the frame via re-welding. I either have to slightly relocate the 1" tubing inward, or the UCA bracket outward. Since the UCA bracket is a big job which will require plenty of precision due to the lack of a jig, it's probably better to go with the tubing. Of course, after re-welding whichever part, I will have to re-coat the section. I will welcome any ideas and comments.

    Thanks,

    Carlos
    FFR Coupe #0635; Heart: 358ci supercharged, 603 RWHP, Viper-spec T-56, custom rear end w/ 3.73:1 gears; Soul: '88 Mustang, road/drag racer

  7. #7
    East Coast Speed Machines Erik W. Treves's Avatar
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    Why don't you mount that UCA in the SAI position and use your spindles.
    FFR 1879, Blown DSS 306,REDLINE management, VeryCoolParts Tuned 460RWHP

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  8. #8
    Or buy the SAI kit which is far cheaper, but I still think you should be able to get a pursuader bar on the hood bracket to get it to move in enough.

    Mark Dougherty bend mine some to line up as well, not for purposes of the suspension but to line up the hood.
    Worth a try before you start cutting and welding in my opinion.

    http://www.whitbymotorsports.com/UIn...ventoryid=1604
    SAI kit $350

    HTH


    John
    Last edited by John Dol; 04-17-2017 at 07:20 AM.
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  9. #9
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    I would take a 1/16" cutoff wheel and make a little cut, almost all the way through the top square hood mount tube, from the inside going out. Then bend the tube toward the inside until your upper control arm bolts up without interference. You shouldn't have to pie-cut the square tube much, if at all, to get the space you need. Bending the mount in will close up the gap or "kerf" as some call it. Then weld it back together, bearing in mind that the square tubing is very thin. I wouldn't be happy about having to do this, but it's a cheap and easy way to solve the problem.

    My halo bars connecting the front and rear roll hoops were mis-welded so high that the body hit them and wouldn't properly sit down on the door sill area, so I can appreciate your situation. I cut them and re-welded them in the right place.

  10. #10
    1 solid love tap with a persuader and she will fit like a glove.
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  11. #11
    Senior Member Carlos C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Dol View Post
    Or buy the SAI kit which is far cheaper, but I still think you should be able to get a pursuader bar on the hood bracket to get it to move in enough.

    Mark Dougherty bend mine some to line up as well, not for purposes of the suspension but to line up the hood.
    Worth a try before you start cutting and welding in my opinion.

    http://www.whitbymotorsports.com/UIn...ventoryid=1604
    SAI kit $350

    HTH


    John
    John:

    I've never heard of this kit before. This may be a solution to my problem but I need more info on it. The two links on the Whitby site did not work for me, so if someone has photos of this kit installed or instructions they can forward to me, I'd really appreciate it. I'll call Whitby, as I'm concerned about some of the specs with this kit as well. I need to make sure that it'll work for my car. I also need to find out if FFR will refund me for this, should I decide to purchase it, as they unofficially stated that they would refund me for any re-welding done on the frame to rectify this issue.

    As far as bending the tubing, I personally don't think this will work in my situation, whether a hammer or a bar is used. In your case, you needed to bend the tubing at the end, which is much easier (there's basically no resistance); whereas my interference is right at the weld (plenty of resistance and strength). Taking a primitive tool to this tubing could cause more damage, which FFR will not hold themselves responsible for. Please remember that this tubing needs to move over 1/4", not just a pinch, in a position on the tubing that's not easily persuaded. Even if I try to move it from the hood's end, I'm bound to bend the tubing from the middle up forward quite a bit, and still not make any progress where I need it. Thanks for the info on the kit. Please let me know if you have photos or the instructions for it.

    Carlos
    FFR Coupe #0635; Heart: 358ci supercharged, 603 RWHP, Viper-spec T-56, custom rear end w/ 3.73:1 gears; Soul: '88 Mustang, road/drag racer

  12. #12
    Senior Member Carlos C's Avatar
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    Erik:

    If you mean placing the UCAs on the FFR spindle location while using the donor's spindles, that will wreak havoc on the suspension's geometry, making the car basically undriveable; not to mention that steering outer tie rods would be mounted in such bad angle, that it would affect bump steer dramatically in a negative way. This is part of the reason why FFR came up with the different mounting locations for the UCAs, depending on which spindles are used. Just for the heck of it, I tried this to see how it would look/work, and trust me when I tell you, it won't work.

    Jacob:

    That's basically the idea I have, should I decide to go with the re-welding route.

    Thank you all for your input so far. Keep them coming.

    Carlos
    FFR Coupe #0635; Heart: 358ci supercharged, 603 RWHP, Viper-spec T-56, custom rear end w/ 3.73:1 gears; Soul: '88 Mustang, road/drag racer

  13. #13
    East Coast Speed Machines Erik W. Treves's Avatar
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    Carlos i think you are mistaken. The upper control arms mounted on the vertical with sn95 spindles was done for years on the ffr... there was an adapter made called the SAI plate. Later FFR made this plate part of the frame. As long as you are not using pin drive lowers you should be able to run sn 95 spindles and the vertical mount on the upper control arm

    I ran them this way for years:





    here is one on a gen 1 coupe:

    DSC_1459.jpg

    and here is a gen 2 which already has the SAI mount locations.

    DSC_0034_zpso6x93bsi.jpg

    so:



    this should also fix your brake bracket issue.
    Last edited by Erik W. Treves; 04-18-2017 at 06:50 AM.
    FFR 1879, Blown DSS 306,REDLINE management, VeryCoolParts Tuned 460RWHP

    FFR 818S, The Flash, Chassis #5, 2.0L, LSD, Electromotive TEC-S, VCP Tuned, 278RWHP 265 RWTQ

    FFR 6651, Green Lantern, 408W Crate, Hellion 66mm Turbo, JGS Waste gate / Blowoff valve, Tec-GT management, VCP Tuned, 575 RWHP, 690 RWTQ

    FFR 8335, Black Mamba, 289 FIA CSX 2001 tribute car, 347, 48 IDA webers, VCP Tuned, 311 RWHP 386 RWTQ, 3-link, Trigo's

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  14. #14
    Senior Member Carlos C's Avatar
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    Erik:

    I never said that it was impossible to bolt the items together the way you're describing, but as I stated in my last post to you is that doing it that way throws the suspension geometry off, and that I even mocked it together (actually Henry and I did), and I could tell that way would not work. Without explaining in detail about angle degrees, steering axis inclinations, instant center, offsets, pivots, etc., here's why I came to that conclusion:
    The SN95 spindle with the required FFR IFS bracket is 2 1/2" taller than the FFR spindle at the upper ball joint mounting location. If you decide to mount the UCA at the FFR SAI location, that's an additional 1", which creates more static angle and less travel for the control arms, not to mention that the UCA now sits outwards 1 1/4" more than it would at the stock location. All of this not only affects the geometry in a negative way (including bump steer), but places the ball joints at bad angles, which can create premature wear/failure of these suspension components and tires. It doesn't matter if the suspension was able to be aligned, once you start going through bumps or turns with badly set up geometry, the alignment becomes non-existent.

    There's something to be said for the fact that FFR never offered me the cheap (read: free) option of just moving the UCAs down to the SAI mounting location and use my SN95 spindles and brakes. So, I just called them to ask why. Their response was the same as the one I mentioned yesterday: that set-up does not work; the geometry was wrong. Actually, here's the quote I got from them: "It'd be like trying to put a Corvette suspension on a Pinto". They said that it was looked into, and it is the reason why they offer the IFS brackets for use with the donor's spindles to use with the top mounting bolts.

    Carlos
    Last edited by Carlos C; 04-18-2017 at 03:51 PM.
    FFR Coupe #0635; Heart: 358ci supercharged, 603 RWHP, Viper-spec T-56, custom rear end w/ 3.73:1 gears; Soul: '88 Mustang, road/drag racer

  15. #15


    Here's the SAI kit installed. It shows the 90 degree bracket for the upper control arm. It also has the bracket attaching the spindle to the suspension.

    HTH

    John
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  16. #16
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  17. #17
    East Coast Speed Machines Erik W. Treves's Avatar
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    Carlos...lol... this is my last try... look at John;s post... his a gen 1. Notice the angle piece on the upper control arm... that piece is now part of the Gen 2 frame...

    Now notice the top of the SN95 Spindle in the second picture...you will see that it is NOT the factory five spindle adapter but the SAI mod that both me and John were noting.... you need to go to Whitby's and get that part from them and bolt your stuff up ... IT WILL WORK and has worked for countless other people... the SAI mod was designed by David Borden, Dan Pellow and Richard Oben . to fix the SAI issue that he highlighted and now Whitby's sells the kit.

    Here is the direct link to the part you need (which John posted above already)... you don't need the angle piece, just the spindle adapter.

    http://www.whitbymotorsports.com/UIn...ventoryid=1604

    thanks John... I couldn't find my detail ones from the Green Lantern.... your pics were perfect!
    Last edited by Erik W. Treves; 04-18-2017 at 06:14 PM.
    FFR 1879, Blown DSS 306,REDLINE management, VeryCoolParts Tuned 460RWHP

    FFR 818S, The Flash, Chassis #5, 2.0L, LSD, Electromotive TEC-S, VCP Tuned, 278RWHP 265 RWTQ

    FFR 6651, Green Lantern, 408W Crate, Hellion 66mm Turbo, JGS Waste gate / Blowoff valve, Tec-GT management, VCP Tuned, 575 RWHP, 690 RWTQ

    FFR 8335, Black Mamba, 289 FIA CSX 2001 tribute car, 347, 48 IDA webers, VCP Tuned, 311 RWHP 386 RWTQ, 3-link, Trigo's

    US ARMY Maintenance Test Pilot (CW4 Retired)

  18. #18
    Senior Member Carlos C's Avatar
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    John:

    Thanks for the photos. It helps visualize how the parts work. Obviously, this part was made for older kits, which didn't have the option from the factory of mounting the UCAs on the side of the bracket. I definitely don't need the bracket, so I'd need to find out if Whitby would just sell me the adapter and for how much, and whether FFR will reimburse me for it.

    Erik:

    Your original post just stated to simply mount the UCAs on the side mounting holes and use my spindles, which was the cause of this debate. It didn't mention this part. On your second post, you vaguely mentioned a SAI plate, which I obviously don't need on my Gen 2, as it came with such from the factory. Regardless, John gave me the info on the actual kit, but since I wasn't familiar with this kit and I needed more info and/or photos, I couldn't comment on it. I do appreciate that you had good intentions and tried to help.

    All in all, it looks like I have two options: the Whitby kit, or re-welding the tubing. FFR confirmed to me today that they will reimburse me for the welding job, if I have someone else besides myself do the job and I submit a receipt. I have to figure out my options with the Whitby kit. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

    Carlos
    FFR Coupe #0635; Heart: 358ci supercharged, 603 RWHP, Viper-spec T-56, custom rear end w/ 3.73:1 gears; Soul: '88 Mustang, road/drag racer

  19. #19
    Rewelding the front tube won't give you better handling.....

    John
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  20. #20
    Senior Member Carlos C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Dol View Post
    Rewelding the front tube won't give you better handling.....

    John
    No, it won't, but it'll fix my interference issue which is my main concern. I called Whitby and left a message with the receptionist, but never got a call back. I'm sending an email and will try to call again.

    Carlos
    FFR Coupe #0635; Heart: 358ci supercharged, 603 RWHP, Viper-spec T-56, custom rear end w/ 3.73:1 gears; Soul: '88 Mustang, road/drag racer

  21. #21
    Senior Member Carlos C's Avatar
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    I finally got a reply from Jeff at Whitby, who unfortunately stated that they don't have the SAI mod kit in stock, and it may be a month before they get a set ready to ship out. So, I sent an email to FFR asking them if they'd consider reimbursing me for this kit, and by the time I received a reply from them a couple of hours later, they had already called Jeff, given him my information, and placed the order. I was pleasantly surprised and grateful that they took care of it that quickly. In my opinion, this is a better option than cutting and re-welding the frame.

    Once again, I'd like to thank everyone who shared their opinion and information, especially John for introducing me to this kit. This is one of the reasons why I love using this site. Now, I need to get back to work on the rest of the build until I get these parts from Jeff, so I can finish the front suspension and brakes.

    Carlos
    FFR Coupe #0635; Heart: 358ci supercharged, 603 RWHP, Viper-spec T-56, custom rear end w/ 3.73:1 gears; Soul: '88 Mustang, road/drag racer

  22. #22
    Glad to help!
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

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