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Thread: Srobinsonx2 Bodywork

  1. #1
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    Srobinsonx2 Bodywork

    I am going to start a thread to cover my body work. I know some of you may not want to see another one of these but I am doing this for a few reasons. So please bear with me.

    1. I have never done this before, have no idea what I am doing, and will need some help. I thought it might be easier to ask questions and get answers separate from my build thread

    2. For me this feels like a separate part of the project so another thread will help me document this easier.

    3. Hopefully I can capture some things that might help others. Things that are not well documented.

    I have read as many of the body work threads as I could find ( JKleiner and STL-Scott were the most helpful)
    http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-fact...6583-a-13.html
    http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-fact...-thread-3.html
    But since I have never done this before I thought maybe I could not only answer my questions but help others out as well. So here it goes.
    FFR MK4 Complete Kit #8952
    3 Link Rear Suspension
    Gordon Levy 347 SBF with T5
    First start Feb 20, 2017
    First Go Kart March 5, 2017

  2. #2
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    How to start

    Here is where my build currently stands.

    I have the car mechanically complete and a little over 200 miles on the car. I have a punch list of things to fix while the body is off. I have everything bolted, screwed, riveted, or otherwise attached to the car with the following excpetions: a) side vents, b) windshield bezels where the post enters the body, c) carpet, and hood scoop. So here is my approach. Let me know if you see any issues:

    1. Remove the seats, cover the dash and engine with plastic. I hope this will help minimize the dust on these components. Might be wishful thinking but I thought worth a try.

    2. Clean the body again with wax remover. I have done this before but I think another cleaning won't hurt. Do I need wash the body with soap and water after the wax remover?

    3. Use Rage Gold to fill in the uneven portions of the door. This mostly applies to the drivers door but there might be a couple of spots on the passenger side. I want to do the bulk of the body work and sanding with the body off the car and back on the body buck. The doors is the only body work I think I need to do while on the chassis. I want to do the bodywork with the body off the chassis in order to minimize dust on the car and in my garage. I can easily roll the body buck outside.

    4. Once I am satisfied with how the doors/body match I will start disassembly in order to remove the body and start the bulk of the bodywork.

    Does this approach make sense?

    Couple of beginning questions:
    1. I am sure I will need to apply multiple layers of Rage Gold when building up the difference between the body/door lines. Is 1/4" about the right thickness for bodyfiller layers?
    2. I have read where some let the body filler completely dry before sanding. I have also seen videos on Youtube that describe sanding just after the fillers sets, essentially just after the filler is firm and not tacky. Will either way work? Does waiting after it is completely cured make it harder to sand?
    3. I have seen where some clean their body filler tools (paddles or whatever they are called) with Prepsol. Is there something better?

    Thanks in advance.
    FFR MK4 Complete Kit #8952
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    Gordon Levy 347 SBF with T5
    First start Feb 20, 2017
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  3. #3
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    I forgot to mention that I have already dewaxed the body. I then used Comet and scotchbrite pad afterwards.
    FFR MK4 Complete Kit #8952
    3 Link Rear Suspension
    Gordon Levy 347 SBF with T5
    First start Feb 20, 2017
    First Go Kart March 5, 2017

  4. #4


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    Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by srobinsonx2 View Post

    ...Once I am satisfied with how the doors/body match I will start disassembly in order to remove the body and start the bulk of the bodywork...
    My order FWIW; I do a rough initial fit of the moving panels with the body on the chassis then pull it to do the bodywork on parting lines, blocking, wheelwell and cowl cut/finish, door top rolls, scoop cutout, etc. They then get 2+ gallons of Slick Sand and go back on the chassis for the bodywork related to door/trunk/hood matching, gaps and final fitting. Once they come off again it's more SS and blocking then paint.

    ...I have seen where some clean their body filler tools (paddles or whatever they are called) with Prepsol. Is there something better?
    Pick up a handfull of plastic body filler spreaders for 50 cents each. No cleaner necessary; once the filler cures on them you just bend the spreader and it snaps off.

    Jeff

  5. #5
    Now is the time to make the cockpit a little wider. By removing 1.5" from the top of each door, you will make the cockpit 3" wider. The change is only noticeable on a side-by-side comparison and looks completely natural as if supplied that way. The difference in shoulder/arm room is dramatic with regards to feel and function. Would recommend this on any new build or re-build.
    Mark IV -- 04 Mach1 Donor -- 4.6 DOHC -- TKO 600 -- 3:55 Gears -- 3 Link - Hydroboost PS & PB -- 13" PBR's Front & 11.65's Rear -- Cuesta Wiring -- Thompson Signals -- FFR Radiator, heater, wipers, and catalytic converters -- Metco DS safety loop -- Forte 7/8" front bar -- VPM 3/4" rear bar -- Champ road race pan -- Corbeau A4 Seats -- Bridgestone RE760 Sports on 17 x 9's.

  6. #6
    You may find http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-fact...works-faq.html and http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...Roadster-Build useful as well. Carl is doing a great job documenting the trials and tribulations of a first-time body worker. And his body work is turning out pretty well too.

    Cheers,


    John
    MK IV Roadster #8631
    Ford 302, Holley Terminator EFI, T5z, 3.55 Rear End, IRS, 17” Halibrand Replicas (9” front, 10.5” rear), Nitto 555 G2’s (275/40ZR17 front, 315/35ZR17 rear), Fast Freddie’s Power Steering, F5 Wilwood Brakes, FFMetal’s Firewall Forward, Forte’s Hydraulic Clutch & Throttle Linkage

  7. #7
    Out Drivin' Gumball's Avatar
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    I, too, was a bodywork neophyte - never did it before. The resources here were invaluable and I learned quite a bit in the process, particularly since I have a Mk 3.1 and did quite a few body mods.

    Here's my bodywork thread.....

    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...is%27+bodywork
    Later,
    Chris

    "There are no more monsters to fear, and so, we have to build our own."
    Mk3.1 #7074

  8. #8
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    Updated plan

    I read through the links you guys provided. Thanks for all the information and wonderful documentation. Based on what I have read I am going to modify my plan slightly.

    1. I will remove the seats, roll bar, lights, windshield, wipers, and trunk hardware first.

    2. Use wax remover again to make sure the body is clean

    3. Sand the entire body with 120 grit sand paper to form a rough surface for the Rage Gold.

    4. I will leave the body on the chassis for removing and filling the parting lines as well as the doors, hood, and trunk. I wanted to avoid all the sanding dust on the chassis and engine but everyone else has managed to deal with that clean up so I think I should be able too. Any special tips here? I want to be able to roll the vehicle outside of the garage and sand there if possible. Since I have a slope to my driveway I will need to crank the engine and drive it back into the garage. What do you guys recommend. I could put plastic in the engine compartment and cab area each time. Or should I just blow/vacuum the dust off periodically?

    5. Knock down the seams with a DA sander and 80 grit. I might use a little more aggressive paper based on progress and my comfort level once I get started.

    This seems to be more in line with what everyone else is doing so let me know if you see any big issues.
    FFR MK4 Complete Kit #8952
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    Gordon Levy 347 SBF with T5
    First start Feb 20, 2017
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by walt mckenna View Post
    Now is the time to make the cockpit a little wider. By removing 1.5" from the top of each door, you will make the cockpit 3" wider. The change is only noticeable on a side-by-side comparison and looks completely natural as if supplied that way. The difference in shoulder/arm room is dramatic with regards to feel and function. Would recommend this on any new build or re-build.
    Walt, How did you remove the 1.5"? Did you just sand this down? As I understand it, the inner and outer door panels are glued together. Will I need to use fiberglass to reattach the panels after removing this much material? I like this idea so thanks for the info.
    FFR MK4 Complete Kit #8952
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    Gordon Levy 347 SBF with T5
    First start Feb 20, 2017
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  10. #10
    Out Drivin' Gumball's Avatar
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    I avoided the mess when doing all of the panel fitment (doors, hood, trunk lid) by wrapping the chassis in bodyshop plastic sheeting before reinstalling the body. Here's a pic of the mess that would have otherwise ended up all over my engine.



    Here's what it looked like before putting the body on over the plastic-draped chassis....



    and with the body back on....

    Later,
    Chris

    "There are no more monsters to fear, and so, we have to build our own."
    Mk3.1 #7074

  11. #11
    I did not do the modification myself because I have no skills in that area. I had a local fiberglass body expert do the work for me after I outlined the work area with a magic marker. I can try to get a procedure for you if you are interested in doing the job yourself. Attached are photos of the work. I have not had any other body work or painting done because my car does road and track duty and a nice paint job would be too much of an invitation for an off-track excursion.

    IMG_3836.JPGIMG_3837.JPGIMG_3838.JPGIMG_3841.JPG
    Mark IV -- 04 Mach1 Donor -- 4.6 DOHC -- TKO 600 -- 3:55 Gears -- 3 Link - Hydroboost PS & PB -- 13" PBR's Front & 11.65's Rear -- Cuesta Wiring -- Thompson Signals -- FFR Radiator, heater, wipers, and catalytic converters -- Metco DS safety loop -- Forte 7/8" front bar -- VPM 3/4" rear bar -- Champ road race pan -- Corbeau A4 Seats -- Bridgestone RE760 Sports on 17 x 9's.

  12. #12
    Hi there,
    I'll chime in as a person who is currently doing body work for the first time too.

    Things I've learned:
    Sanding is a mess. You'll find out when you start your first parting line. I was glad to have the body on the buck and away from the car.
    Dont put on the Rage too thick - just making things harder on yourself
    When I needed to shape areas, I used 40 grit to get the shapes roughly close, then finished it with 80 grit
    Sand rage gold until it feathers with the gel coat (blends in without clear seperation) /
    Use your hands on the body to feel the high and low areas (you'll know what I mean when you start)
    Having too much hardener was better than not having enough
    Having a mask on when sanding was enough PPE for me
    Leaving a good coat of Rage on the spreader and allowing it to cure was easier to clean off than trying to clean the spreader while the rage was still soft. The former just snaps off in clumps.

    I've been able to do all my bodywork so far without the body on the frame.
    Note: I'm doing a Mk 3 instead of a Mk4

    The Things I did:
    Degreaser 2 times /
    Comet and Scotchpad /
    Mold lines were taken down with dremel and sanding disk to the clear fiberglass (I think this step is where we differ) / DUSTY
    filled with HSRF to bring the new trenches that I made in my body back close to level with outer gel coat (Don't think Mk4 folks are doing that step) /
    Sanded down HSRF after fully cured with 40 grit / Sanded entire body, doors, trunk, hood with 80 grit with 8" pool noodle to get into contours and small flexible durablock to get larger flat areas / DUSTY
    Did all body sanding in a cross hatch pattern / DUSTY
    Applied Rage Gold (don't put on too thick) over the mold lines and I let it cure completely when I started. You'll learn quickly when you can sand. (the hardener was tricky for me with the HSRF and Rage - Too much = hardens fast, too little hardener = digging out all of the stuff you just applied because it will never get to a sanding state. Lesson- I prefer too much over not enough.) /
    Rage gold sanded very easily with 80 grit / DUSTY
    When I needed to shape areas, I used 40 grit to get the shapes roughly close, then finished it with 80 grit. /
    Sand rage gold until it feathers with the gel coat (blends in without clear seperation) / DUSTY
    Use your hands on the body to feel the high and low areas (you'll know what I mean when you start) /
    Reapply Rage, cure enough to not clog sandpaper (15 min. - 30min ish) /
    Sand in cross hatch / DUSTY
    Reapply Rage, cure enough to not clog sandpaper (15 min. - 30min ish) /
    Sand in cross hatch / DUSTY
    Reapply Rage, cure enough to not clog sandpaper (15 min. - 30min ish) /
    Sand in cross hatch / DUSTY
    Sanded down edges of hood to get to fit in body
    Sanded down top radius of door to rid mold seam **NOTE** I sanded through and made a hole when doing this. If you're going to get into those doors to make more room, be handy with fiberglassing or get a PRO
    Sprayed Slicksand over body, doors, hood and trunk
    Sanded with 220 grit / DUSTY DUSTY DUSTY

    That's as far as I am right now. All done on the body buck. Not to say that it has all been done correctly, but I'm pleased with the results so far, and so is my wife

    Photos
    PHOTOS OF BODY WORK (BY A ROOKIE)

    Videos with Questions that I had - I really should put answers on the videos since I've received them
    VIDEOS OF BUILD



    Hope this helps
    Dave
    Last edited by DadofThree; 04-27-2017 at 01:28 PM.
    Dave
    Mk 3.1 - #6882 - 5.0L 302 - FiTech EFI - 3-Link - 3.08 Ratio - 15" Wheels
    Greenhorn and doing the best I can
    My photos are at: My Flickr acct
    Videos are at: YouTube Videos
    Blog @ BuildaRoadster.com

  13. #13
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    Week #1

    Week 1 of bodywork has been slow. I have been out of town and did not get as much done as I had hoped. Instead of boring everyone with another "here is my plan" post, I decided to just take action and get this thing started.

    First thing I did was go get some supplies at a local supply store. I bought Rage Gold, 3M Marine Premium Filler, a mixing board, and plenty of stir sticks and spreaders. The guy at the shop kind of laughed at me (not in mean way) for getting so many spreaders but I didn't want to run out. Hopefully all that looks ok. Anything I miseed?



    So I decided to go ahead and remove the body from the chassis. Jeff K does it so I figured I couldn't go wrong following his lead. The body is off and back on the buck. That went smooth and I went ahead and wiped it down again with wax and grease remover.

    I also started on the hood. Removed the hardware and cut the hole for the hood scoop. Before removing the body, I used a laser to shoot a line down the middle of the front of the body (nose to dash). I used the middle of the nose opening and the middle of the dash as my reference points. The center of the nose was easy to find with a tape measure. The center of the body just above the dash (where I mounted the rear view mirror) I found by using a cloth tape and the two seams on each side as a reference. I then ran the laser through those two points and marked the body/hood. No big problem and it visually looked like the center. I then followed the directions in the build manual to cut the hole for the scoop. Well when I placed the scoop as described, it wasn't quite lined up with my center marks. It was off towards the driver side by about 1/4". Probably not a big deal but I wanted it to be perfectly center. I kind of ignored the build manual guide and slid the scoop towards the passenger side. This put he back edge of the scoop on the driver side just inside the hole I cut. I contemplated how to resolve this and simply slid the scoop back and an inch or so further back than the build manual describes. Went ahead and drilled the holes and it should be ok. Here is a picture of the underside with a couple of clecos holding the scoop in place. Do you see any issues?



    I know this will be visible when the hood is up but I thought it was more important to have the hood centered to line up with the le mans stripes. I might have to do some work on the underside to even things out. Thoughts?

    Here is a picture of the hood laying in place.



    I plan to dewax the hood, doors, and trunk tomorrow and clean everything again with comet and a scotch brite.

    More to follow. I will also be logging my hours like I did in my build thread. It might be good for future builders if they want a reference for time commitment.
    FFR MK4 Complete Kit #8952
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    Gordon Levy 347 SBF with T5
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  14. #14


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    You should be able to fudge the scoop and stripes a bit to compensate and kind of split the difference; like Jeff Miller said to me a long time ago regarding stripe placement---"trust your eyes more than the tape measure". So true with these cars since nothing is straight or symmetrical.

    This info is coming kinda' late for you now but maybe the following will help someone else who is following along. I do not use the manual's dimensions. Square cuts or too small of a corner radius can result in the issue you are dealing with. The hoods have a top and bottom layer which are bonded together then cut and I've found that center of the underside doesn't always match up with the center of the topside. For this reason I make the hole a little smaller and position it based on the indentation on the underside rather than a centerline on the top. This leaves enough room to allow for the minor adjustments on the top to center the scoop without the risk of the hole and scoop conflicting. . The photo below shows the dimensions I use when cutting them (Note that I use a 3 1/2" hole saw for the corners).



    This photo shows the fastener holes which should give you a pretty good indication of where the scoop's flange sits:



    And another with it in place:



    Because of the smaller hole you don't see it but the scoop is actually slightly offset in relation to the underside of the hood.

    Jeff

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    Thanks Jeff. Maybe a little late but let's me know I am not running into something completely new. Not the end of the world. The only time this will be seen is when the hood is up and hopefully everyone will be looking the shiny Levy 347. So, my decision now is do I try and clean this up with some fiberglass work or let is go. I might set the scoop back on the hood (with some clecos) and stare at it for a while.

    Instead of fiberglass could I use some HSRF to build up that side a little? I know fiberglass is probably the best way but that seems like a lot of work. It wouldn't be structural and would only serve to even up the sides. Thoughts.

    P.S. I got all the parts cleaned with Comet and Scotch Brite pad this evening. I will start sanding over the next few days. Will probably have some questions then. Thanks everyone for all the help and advice.
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  16. #16
    Senior Member mcwho's Avatar
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    I am another one doing the body work and paint myself. Actually my son is doing it. The car sits now with most of the body work done, mostly in primer. I have just replaced the carb, and have a total of 41 miles on it since first start and drive about a year ago.

    Just had a complete alignment done, ride height set, front align, rear IRS align, and 4 corner weighting etc.

    I do NOT have the windshield on as yet or the hood.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by mcwho; 05-05-2017 at 01:03 PM.
    Baghdad Bob

    Complete Kit ordered Feb 2009, Delivered July 2010, serial @ 7287, Power Brakes, Power Steering w HEIDTS Valve, Hydralic clutch, 15" Wheels, BFG Tires, 331 stroker w Edelbrock Performer RPM Heads, Edelbrock Performer Air Gap Intake and Quick Fuel 650 carb. IRS w 3.27, TKO-600.

  17. #17
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    Update and questions

    Got off a little early today and started on the bodywork in earnest. I rolled the body buck outside, used a DA sander with 80 grit, and knocked down all the parting lines. It went pretty easy and didn't take as long as I thought it would. There were a few areas where I needed to remove the parting lines by hand. The concave areas inside the headlights, just in front of the front wheel wells, outside the trunk opening, and around the gas tank all required hand work. On most of these areas I used a short piece of pool noodle with 80 grit. The gas cap area I did by hand. I noticed quite a few areas where uncured gel coat was present and some voids/pits in the fiberglass. Here are a couple of examples.



    The darker red areas in the parting lines is where the gelcoat is uncured. I could dig it out with my fingernails. Am i removing to much material on the parting lines or not enough. I tried to strike a balance between removing the lines, go far enough to make sure there was no unfound and uncured gel coat, and leveling uneven areas.

    From what I have read I need to remove the uncured gel coat. I also wanted to "smooth" the edges of the voids/pits in the fiberglass. I thought by opening up the voids a little it might be easier to get the body filler to fill these spots. Is that necessary? I decided to use a small bur bit on a dremel. I took a short video of this process.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6Kgwr77N6U

    Here is a picture of the parting line after the dremel work. Now that I look at it I see a small void I missed.



    Should I use 3M HSRF to fill the voids or will rage gold be good enough?

    I also took a stab at blocking the gel coat. I understand I should do this before filler and sandable primer. I did a small area just in front of the hood. I used 120 grit in a criss cross pattern. Does that look ok? I see where Jeff K and STL-Scott used 150 grit for this step. I don't have 150. If 120 is too coarse, I have 180 grit. My thought is it shouldn't matter much. I think this step is to help the filler stick?



    Before I got too carried I wanted to make sure I was on the right track. Feel free to criticize and point out my mistakes. Thanks in advance.
    FFR MK4 Complete Kit #8952
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    Gordon Levy 347 SBF with T5
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  18. #18


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    I've learned a thing or two since I wrote that (much of it from comparing notes with Brother Bat). These days I do the initial gel coat block with 80.

    Jeff

  19. #19
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    Blocking Gelcoat

    I got the entire body blocked (have not done the doors, hood or trunk lid yet). The experts now use 80 grit for this step. No reason to not follow sage advice. It took my about 6 hours to complete this part. This included cleaning up the wheel wells and trimming back the rolled cockpit edges a little. It wasn't hard just took some time. I found the sanding somewhat therapeutic. The work is pretty straight forward, a little physical, and you can see steady progress. I did all the sanding in the drive way to save the garage from all the dust. I blew the body off with my air compressor and then wiped it down with a microfiber cloth.



    I tried quite a few of my tools. I found that I liked the soft styrofoam sanding blocks the best. They were flexible, light and had a few shapes that worked well. I also used a piece of pool noodle quite a bit. The pool noodle was especially handy on the front. I tried the Durablock and a larger flexible sander. They were ok but not as good as the soft flexible ones. At least that was my first experience. Here are my tools. My safety equipment is also there. I wore safety glasses (might not be necessary for sanding) and a dust mask.



    If I have some time tomorrow afternoon, I will try my hand at applying Rage Gold on the parting lines. Before I do this, it is necessary to clean the area first? I was planning on wiping the area with wax remover/degreaser. Is that ok?
    FFR MK4 Complete Kit #8952
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    Gordon Levy 347 SBF with T5
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  20. #20
    Senior Member Duke's Avatar
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    PrepAll (Kleenstrip) is your friend. You don't have to use it but it helps before applying filler. SEM guide coat is also your friend when sanding. Rage is fine for the deep parting lines, but if you have 3M HSRF it would definitely be stronger.

    Two youtube vids that may help along the way:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sP9Ty0jQy8
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smudf-wpsoY

  21. #21
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    Hsrf

    After all the sanding and blocking I wanted to get some filler on the body for a change of pace. In an earlier post I mentioned I had cleaned the voids and uncured gelcoat out of the parting lines. That left some kind of deep holes and crevices. I asked about filling those with HSRF and haven't got an answer yet. Since I am impatient, I went ahead and used some of the HSRF to fill the deep spots. The filler is white and the hardener is blue. I mixed up a small batch to start (about what I could get out with one dip of a mixing stick. I put enough catalyst for the final mixture to be a light blue. Tied my hand at sanding it. I started with 80 grit as I didn't have any 40. It sanded down pretty easy. I then mixed up a second batch with a little less hardener. This time it was a pale blue. It gave me a little longer to work the material (3-4 minutes) and allowed me to use all the filler before hardening. Since it is warm here is Texas (80 F) I have a good reference for future mixtures. I went ahead and filled all the voids and deep spots and then sanded it down with my styrofoam blocks like I did the day before on the body. I tried to mimic what I have seen on the forum by sanding until the edges were feathered. Here are a couple of pics.





    Now that I look at those pictures, this step probably didn't do much. I don't know iit is necessary but it did make me feel better and let me get comfortable with the catalyzed body fillers. I was a little messy mixing up the product on my board but got a little better with each attempt.

    I wanted to start building up the shape with my Rage Gold but wasn't sure how long I needed to wait between layers of products, especially different products. I decided to wait until tomorrow or later in the week before I applied anything on top of the HSRF. Any guidance on how long I need to wait between coats of Rage Gold or other fillers?
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  22. #22
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    Rage Gold

    Well I tried my hand at Rage Gold tonight. First attempt was pretty poor. I mixed up a small batch and applied it to the driver side rear parting line. I waited about 15 minutes and started sanding it down. 80 grit was the coarsest paper I had so I used that. Per the other bodywork threads 40 grit is what to use quickly knockdown the peaks on the filler. I think I am going to get some 40 grit. That will make working the Rage Gold a little easier. But I didn't have any and 80 did work, just a little elbow grease. Well, as I started sanding I started uncovering air pockets. I think this is what everyone is calling pin holes. Mine were a little more than pin holes. Well, I decided to sand all those out.
    Here is what I started with


    Here are the air pockets I found


    And here is what I was left with when all the air pockets were gone


    I laughed at myself when I got to this point. I am going to have to get better. I will have a lot of work and will need a lot more Rage Gold if my application efficiency doesn't improve.

    So I decided to try my hand at this again. With the next batch of Rage Gold, I spent a little more time mixing and trying to keep air out of the mix. I also spent a little more time applying the material to the body and "working" it into place. I also applied a thinner coat. This seemed to help. Still not great at getting the shape I want and need to improve on how much I keep on the body but overall better and no air pockets.



    Anyone have advice for the following:
    1. Keeping the air pockets out of the filler?
    2. Best way to get the shape? I saw hacksaw blade trick. Maybe I will try that.
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  23. #23
    Senior Member Duke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by srobinsonx2 View Post

    1. Keeping the air pockets out of the filler?
    Don't whip it. Gently fold the material into itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by srobinsonx2 View Post
    2. Best way to get the shape? I saw hacksaw blade trick. Maybe I will try that.
    Yellow plastic body filler spreaders. Youtube may be helpful. Keep the 'globs' off the side and apply in a much larger area than you are trying to fix.
    Quote Originally Posted by srobinsonx2 View Post
    3. Any guidance on how long I need to wait between coats of Rage Gold or other fillers?
    Depends on how much hardener. Once it's hard enough for sanding, it's hard enough for recoat. Just make sure it's sanded before recoating.

  24. #24


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    Duke got it.
    Use the plastic spreaders and lay it out wide along the line you're working on---in your unsanded photo it appears that you're going perpendicular rather than parallel to that quarter panel parting line. You want to be making long smooth pulls with the spreader flexed to the contour. Coarser grits cut faster but more importantly allow you to be more accurate with your shape. This might give you an idea of what can typically be expected after the parting lines are prepped:



    Practice, practice, practice. Again to quote Brother Miller; "The best way to LEARN bodywork is to DO bodywork". I'll add my own to that...there isn't much of anything you can do which can't be undone.

    Carry on and good luck!

    Jeff

  25. #25
    Out Drivin' Gumball's Avatar
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    One thing I was told by my bodyshop-owning friend was to always try and apply the filler in broad strokes - here's an example......





    And yeah, I sanded quite a bit onto the floor, too.
    Later,
    Chris

    "There are no more monsters to fear, and so, we have to build our own."
    Mk3.1 #7074

  26. #26
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    Thanks for the help

    Thanks Gumball, Jeff K, and Duke for the feedback. I am going to use this advice and give it another go. My next attempt will have to be Friday or this weekend. I have this pesky job that keeps getting in the way. I am traveling and not able to work on the car. Which mostly means I am reading bodywork article, watching bodywork videos and spending money on bodywork tools/equipment.

    When I return I will try the broader strokes, wider coverage, parallel paths with the seams, and practice. I even have a wider yellow paddles that I think will allow me to contour the filler a little better as Jeff suggested.

    I am researching options for paint. I have gone back and forth on having someone paint it or doing it myself. I have never painted a car before but really want the satisfaction of doing all the work myself. I have watched video on youtube, paintucation video, read articles, and harassed a guy I know that use to do some bodywork. After a lot of soul searching I know I will wish I ha performed the work myself when this is all done. Even if the paint job isn't perfect (is perfect every really possible?) I will most likely be the only one to notice (other than a professional) and I will have something I can truly be proud of.....with no regrets. Plus if I mess it up, I should be able to fix it. At least that is what I keep hearing. So I think I am committed to take this thing all the way through paint. So in my search for paint options I am drawn to the turbine HVLP paint systems. Apollo and Axis are two that I am looking at. I have read the pro and cons with this system:

    Pros:
    Better paint transfer efficiency
    Good price point for a nice system
    Some can be used to supply fresh air
    clean dry air

    Cons:
    Air can get hot
    Spraying a whole car can strain the limits of the systems

    I know this is different from the typical air compressor system. My thought is since both will be new, neither has an advantage when it comes to learning or familiarity. My only big concerns is a knowledgeable resource I can rely on for support when I run into the inevitable problem. Cost wise I think a turbine system will cost a little less since I don't have a large enough compressor tfor a conventional spray system. So am I missing anything here?

    PS. Since I am not working on the car, I have time to worry about future problems that are probably a long way down the bodywork/painting road. Thanks everyone.
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  27. #27
    Senior Member Duke's Avatar
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    Rent/borrow/buy a compressor that's large enough. Put a water filter on the gun before the regulator. Get a good gun (iwata, Sata, devilbiss). I have 2 devilbiss guns that I don't like and recently bought a Iwata Lph400-134Lvx that I love. You'll just need the silver cap for clear.

  28. #28
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    Compressor

    Duke,

    That is good idea. I currently have a Husky 30 gallon compressor. It is 1.7 HP and will supply 6.8 CFM @ 40 psi. If I was able to rent a 50 gallon compressor with another 10 cfm or more at 40 psi, I might have enough compressor if tied together in parallel.

    I will check into renting a two stage 80 gallon compressor as well. That would certainly help when I have issues in the future and need advice.

    Thanks.
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  29. #29
    Eastwood sells a 5 stage HVLP turbine system ....

    http://www.eastwood.com/ew-5-stage-9...t-wth-gun.html

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  30. #30
    Srobinsonx2,

    Thanks for starting this thread. I will be doing my own bodywork as well and this thread has been very useful to me thus far.

    Joe

  31. #31
    Senior Member DaveS53's Avatar
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    I NEVER use those crude plastic applicators when applying body filler. Get a set of stainless steel spreaders from eastwood. Apply the filler with sufficient pressure and you won't have many air pockets. Precision applicators allow more accurate application, use less filler and reduce sanding. The only downside might be that these applicators must be cleaned before the filler hardens. You'll need acetone to do that, not degreaser. I recommend a large supply of blue paper shop towels and some brand new white cotton shop rags. Never buy red shop rags.

    You have the best sanding blocks I've found - soft sanders. The blue works best for initial filler sanding and the yellow is great for more final work. If you're going to try spraying high build polyester primer, that requires a gun with a large tip, like 2.3mm. I think that an air powered paint shaker from harbor freight is a must. I first used some evercoat super build on my car. That stuff can settle in the can so bad that even a paint shaker won't mix it. I've had to pour it out in a 2.5 gallon plastic bucket and scrap out the filler material (talc) from the bottom of the can to loosen it up enough to use the paint shaker.

    You want a cheap primer gun like this for polyester primer. Be sure to remove the filter screen that's in the gum, where the cup screws on. The high build will not flow through it well. You'll need lots of acetone for gun cleaning. If the primer cures in the gun, it's toast.

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ttn-19023/overview/
    Last edited by DaveS53; 05-14-2017 at 08:49 AM.

  32. #32
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    Rage Gold Round 2

    Round 2: Me vs Rage Gold. I know I didn't get a knock out but I might have scored a few points.

    I tried to incorporate the advice above. Here is what I did and a few things I learned.
    1. Applying the Rage Gold along the length of the seam did help. Also applied it a little wider.
    2. I used my larger plastic yellow paddle to apply the filler. I also tried to match the curve of the body by bending the paddle as I applied it.
    3. I need to make slightly smaller batches. I got a little ambitious and tried to get the entire driver rear end done. Started setting.
    4. It is about 85 degrees here. I cut back on the hardener (a strip about 80% of the width of the filler). I still have to work quickly.
    5. I need some 40 grit as the experts have suggested. 80 will get it done but take some work. I have some in route and should be here tomorrow.
    6. The paddles I have are completely flat on one side and a little angled on the other side. Use the angle side! I accidentally used the flat side to mix. Well when I try to wipe it off on the mixing pad, it just squishes back into my fingers. Use the angled side!!!!
    7. I have been applying the Rage gold in the shade of my garage and then rolling it out in to the driveway for sanding. Makes clean up easier.

    Here are some pics.

    Paddles both small and large. I used the one on the right this second time and it seemed to work better.


    My application of Rage Gold with my new technique. The back end is a little rough. The Rage Gold started to set before I got it smooth.


    Here is an example of how I "curved" the paddle to meet the shape I wanted.


    Here is the sanded second coat.


    And I think the shape looks about right to me. (sorry this one is a little blurry)


    I will forge ahead unless you guys see something grossly wrong. I am a little more confident and think this is doable. I just realized I am going to be using my shop vac quite a bit. This part makes a lot of dust. I mean A LOT OF DUST!.
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  33. #33

  34. #34
    Senior Member Duke's Avatar
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    Nice work, keep at it. I have a few body work images and notes in page 3 of my build thread that may be helpful for your next few steps once the parting lines are just about done:
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-wheels)/page3

  35. #35
    Senior Member DaveS53's Avatar
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    Your work looks good. Just be sure that the gel coat has been scuffed with 80 grit, wherever the filler is applied. I've seen people skimp on the 80 grit scuffed areas. Your plastic spreaders look to be better quality than some you can buy and being able to curve them can come in handy.

    One tricky part is to know when to quit sanding. Gel coat sands very slowly compared to filler. Sand too long where the filler meets the gel coat and you can create low spots. Don't sand finer than 220 if you plan to use high build polyester primer.

  36. #36
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    Week #3

    I am keeping track of my hours like I did in my build thread. Hopefully it helps someone in the future as they plan bodywork. I am three week in and have logged 26 hours. As I mentioned earlier I have never done this before and feel good about the progress I have made. I am getting closer on the overall shape. I probably have a couple of more applications of Rage Gold in order to get the shape on the passenger side. I have been able to get the driver side shape really close with only 2-3 coats. I think this is due to the wider bands of Rage Gold I applied after the advice from the site experts. Hopefully this week I will get this part done. I am getting better at mixing, applying and sanding.

    Here is a picture of the shape. I think it looks pretty good but criticism is welcome.


    Here is the big picture


    I also tried something else today. I tried to get all the Rage Gold application done earlier in the day while the temperatures were cooler (70's). The highs here is Texas have been in the 90's and that certainly seems to affect the rate at which the Rage Gold sets up. That seemed to help.

    Once I finish the body shaping, I will rough up the doors, hood, trunk, and hood scoop. I don't think I want to leave the hood scoop in just the plain flimsy plastic. I have seen other bodywork threads where folks have coated the underside of the scoop with filler. Is that the right way to approach the scoop? I am going to try that unless someone disagrees.

    I need to decide on a spray system. I haven't decided on a turbine system or traditional pneumatic. If all goes well, I think I am 2-3 weeks away from spraying some Slick Sand. More to come.
    FFR MK4 Complete Kit #8952
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  37. #37


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    Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Leave the scoop as is. The "flimsy plastic" becomes not so when bolted/riveted to the hood. The ones you may have seen with filler on the underside were undoubtedly the old fiberglass versions which had raw 'glass cloth underneath.

    I've got nothing for ya' on the turbine systems.

    Jeff

  38. #38
    I have used a turbine system, and was pleasantly surprised how well it worked. It seems to spray less volume, so the travel speed is a little slower, but once I adjusted my technique, it squirted a nice fine misted spray that laid down very well. I did an engine bay of an E type Jag, with all the tubular frame etc. and it came out nice. Since I have all the HVLP guns and equipment, I won't reinvest a bunch on a turbine (they're rather expensive), since I only need them once every few years. I use air for many things. The turbine is only for spraying.

  39. #39
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    Thanks PeteH. I am leaning towards the turbine system. I have a small compressor (30 gallon) and from what I can tell it would not be large enough for a conventional paint gun. I looked at buying a compressor but a two stage 80 gallon compressor would cost about $1500 bucks by itself. I would then need a drying system, a decent spray gun, and some electrical work to get 220 volts in the garage. I figure it would cost me at least $2500 bucks to get a decent set up. Another option would be a rental compressor. That would cost me about $500 (based on 2 separate 1 week rentals). So a rental system and needed components would cost me about $1500. A turbine system would cost $1300-$1800 all in. So to summarize

    1. Traditional compressed air system (purchase compressor): $2500
    2. Traditional compressed air system (rent compressor): $1500
    3. Turbine system: $1600

    I have a call into Apollo (turbine manufacturer) and the regional sales guy is suppose to give me a call back. I am going to ask about recommended equipment for my tasks, flexibility, and some basic application tips. I also called Evercoat to see if they had any recommendations for applying Slick Sand through turbine system. Evercoat had an extremely cumbersome automated call routing system. I gave up and sent them an email asked the question. I will let you guys know what I find out.

    Did some more Rage Gold application tonight. No exciting pictures. More of the same: Mix up rage gold, applying it quickly, wait 10 minutes, and sand it down. Rinse and repeat. I figure I have one more night of this and the major shape of the body should be done. Then onto the hood, doors, and trunk.
    FFR MK4 Complete Kit #8952
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS53 View Post
    I NEVER use those crude plastic applicators when applying body filler. Get a set of stainless steel spreaders from eastwood. Apply the filler with sufficient pressure and you won't have many air pockets. Precision applicators allow more accurate application, use less filler and reduce sanding. The only downside might be that these applicators must be cleaned before the filler hardens. You'll need acetone to do that, not degreaser. I recommend a large supply of blue paper shop towels and some brand new white cotton shop rags. Never buy red shop rags.

    You have the best sanding blocks I've found - soft sanders. The blue works best for initial filler sanding and the yellow is great for more final work. If you're going to try spraying high build polyester primer, that requires a gun with a large tip, like 2.3mm. I think that an air powered paint shaker from harbor freight is a must. I first used some evercoat super build on my car. That stuff can settle in the can so bad that even a paint shaker won't mix it. I've had to pour it out in a 2.5 gallon plastic bucket and scrap out the filler material (talc) from the bottom of the can to loosen it up enough to use the paint shaker.

    You want a cheap primer gun like this for polyester primer. Be sure to remove the filter screen that's in the gum, where the cup screws on. The high build will not flow through it well. You'll need lots of acetone for gun cleaning. If the primer cures in the gun, it's toast.

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ttn-19023/overview/
    Thanks DaveS53,

    I like that gun for the price. I was planning on maybe buying this and using my existing air compressor for spraying Slick Sand. Do you think a 30 gallon compressor rated for almost 7 cfm at 40 psi will work? The gun specs say the cfm requirement is 4.5-7.5 at 15-50 psi. I know what I have is marginal but hoping I can make it work for a couple of gallons of Slick Sand.
    FFR MK4 Complete Kit #8952
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    Gordon Levy 347 SBF with T5
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    First Go Kart March 5, 2017

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