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Thread: Engine mount sitting

  1. #1
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    Engine mount sitting

    I know I read this somewhere but I can't find it.. my motor mount won't sit flush on the block. I know you don't notch the block, should I just grind the backside of the mount?

  2. #2
    Senior Member cgundermann's Avatar
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    I'm guessing it's a Dart block? If so, yes - helped another forum member install his Dart motor and he had to notch the motor mount because of the V reinforcing fins on the block that kept the mounts from sitting flush against the block.
    Last edited by cgundermann; 05-06-2017 at 09:04 PM.

  3. #3
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    Yes.it is a dart 351w block.... I thought so, but wanted to make sure before I grinded motor mounts down

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    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    X2 on putting a clearance notch in the motor mounts for DART blocks. My #7750 Mk4 build used a 347 DART SHP block. It doesn't take much and won't hurt the integrity of the mounts. My engine builder quite adamantly advised to trim the motor mounts not the block. Few minutes with a die grinder and all was good.
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    Well Used Member boat737's Avatar
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    You guys have me worried now. I used the Energy Suspensions engine mounts with the Dart block. I didn't see any interference, misalignment, or problems when I did the engine install. the mounts (as far as I can see with the body on) are sitting flush on the block bosses, and flush on the frame cradle mounts. Can you post up some pictures of what the problem is? The body will be coming off in a month or so, and if there is a problem, now is the time to fix it.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boat737 View Post
    You guys have me worried now. I used the Energy Suspensions engine mounts with the Dart block. I didn't see any interference, misalignment, or problems when I did the engine install. the mounts (as far as I can see with the body on) are sitting flush on the block bosses, and flush on the frame cradle mounts. Can you post up some pictures of what the problem is? The body will be coming off in a month or so, and if there is a problem, now is the time to fix it.
    It's been a few years since I did that assembly, and unfortunately don't have a picture of the notched mounts. But as I recall the interference was quite obvious and the Energy mounts wouldn't line up before clearanced. I really think you would have noticed it. This isn't the best picture, but shows my DART block on the stand. The ribs in question are between the engine mount bosses and the block.

    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
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    Well Used Member boat737's Avatar
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    Thanks Paul. I did my best tonight to see what I could see, which wasn't a whole lot. Using a mirror and flashlight, I could see that the mount is flush on the boss, at least 3 of the 4 bosses. Tomorrow, I think I'll jack the car up some to see if I can get my eyeballs a bit closer. I hate to think I torqued those mounts down with some interference, but when I bolted up those mounts, I swear I didn't notice anything out of whack. Doesn't mean it wasn't though. After all, it was pretty exciting getting that engine installed. But both bolts on each side seemed to thread right in, from what I remember at least.

    If I can't see up there good enough, I'm paranoid enough to consider taking off the accessories on the front of the engine, hoisting the engine up some and taking the mounts out for inspection. A heck of a lot of work but this sounds a bit on the serious side.

    BTW, is the 347 the same basic block as the 351w? (I forgot to mention mine is the 351w/427)

    EDIT: I just looked at a couple of pictures of the block during build, and It looks like the little web is not as pronounced as in your pic. Your thoughts?
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    Last edited by boat737; 05-07-2017 at 12:33 AM.
    If Brute Force doesn't work, you're not using enough of it.
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  8. #8
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    Boat, my mount line up, but do not sit flush when I put the bolt all the way in. The back, where the block is, interferes and the mount sits at an angle.

  9. #9
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boat737 View Post
    Thanks Paul. I did my best tonight to see what I could see, which wasn't a whole lot. Using a mirror and flashlight, I could see that the mount is flush on the boss, at least 3 of the 4 bosses. Tomorrow, I think I'll jack the car up some to see if I can get my eyeballs a bit closer. I hate to think I torqued those mounts down with some interference, but when I bolted up those mounts, I swear I didn't notice anything out of whack. Doesn't mean it wasn't though. After all, it was pretty exciting getting that engine installed. But both bolts on each side seemed to thread right in, from what I remember at least.

    If I can't see up there good enough, I'm paranoid enough to consider taking off the accessories on the front of the engine, hoisting the engine up some and taking the mounts out for inspection. A heck of a lot of work but this sounds a bit on the serious side.

    BTW, is the 347 the same basic block as the 351w? (I forgot to mention mine is the 351w/427)

    EDIT: I just looked at a couple of pictures of the block during build, and It looks like the little web is not as pronounced as in your pic. Your thoughts?
    A 347 is a bored and stroked 302 block. Same idea as your bored and stroked 351 to make a 427. From the same family but with obvious differences including the taller deck height. The same Energy Suspension motor mounts fit both. I really doubt you have a problem. It was real obvious on mine the mounts weren't sitting flat on the bosses until I clearanced the mounts. I could be wrong, but looking closely at the pictures you posted looks to me like the webs have been trimmed. I agree they look different. That likely explains why yours fit.
    Last edited by edwardb; 05-07-2017 at 07:16 AM.
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  10. #10
    Well Used Member boat737's Avatar
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    UPDATE: After closer inspection, I don't have the same problem that the OP had. At some point, the block looks to have been relieved on that 3rd web and does not interfere with my mounts. However, I may have a similar problem that will require a similar repair of the motor mounts.

    To start, I hope this isn't a hijack of the thread. Since it's a similar problem, I figure this is the place. The original post is a block interference, mine seems to be a motor mount interference.

    On the Energy Suspensions mounts, where the metal is bent, the corner flares out. On at least two of my bolt locations there is interference (minor?) with the block at that corner of the motor mount. In a couple of the pictures below, you can just make out where the corner of the motor mount has contacted the block and removed a bit of paint, and is contacting the block at the point. I can just barely get a .010" feeler gauge between the boss and the mount on that corner of the mount. It's hard to be certain though if that is because the boss is relieved back just a bit, or if the corner of the mount is preventing it from sitting perfectly flush. It's darned close.

    So... Calling all engine experts. Give me some input, advice, and tell me what need's to be done. Or tell me I don't even have a problem.

    Is this a problem that needs to be remedied? It appears the simple fix is to grind a few thousands inch off all four corners of the mounts. The massive not so simple task is to get the mount off the engine (in my humble garage) with the engine installed, fully configured and plumbed. I don't have any experience in what that would take, or even if it is possible without disconnecting cooling hoses, linkages, wires, etc. From what I can determine, to get those mounts out, the engine will need to be lifted an inch at least, maybe two. And to do that, looks like the alternator and coil will have to come off to grab onto the heads, unless there is an easier way to lift the engine. Again, I gots no experience with this.

    Thanks for the help.
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    If Brute Force doesn't work, you're not using enough of it.
    Basic Stuff: MK4 Complete Kit #8439, Wilwood's, 17" Halibrands. Extra Stuff: Stainless brake and fuel lines, Breeze cooling, Battery mount, SS Roll Bar. Old Fart Stuff: Heater, Seat Heaters, Footbox Fresh Air, Stereo, Keyless ignition, Power Steering, Hyd Clutch.
    Young & Dumb Stuff: 427w Dart, TKO600, 3 link Moser M9/Ford 9", 3.5:1, Eaton TruTrac Posi. Graduation Thread

  11. #11
    Senior Member cgundermann's Avatar
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    No engine expert, and far more experience will weigh in here, but - as you describe it and by the pics, it is very very close. I'd watch it over a couple long idling runs and see if the vibration and resulting friction clearances/fixes itself. A lot work for a few thousands...

  12. #12
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Also far from an expert compared to some on here. But I have some experience and no shortage of opinions. If it were mine, I would probably leave it as is. That's a rigid mount, so wouldn't expect vibration to be moving anything. Pretty heavy duty parts there. But that's strictly an opinion. Maybe someone else has a stronger opinion that it should be addressed.

    But I can give you real world experience for removing an engine mount on an installed engine. Yes, it's possible. I've done it twice. In both cases, I lifted the engine with a shop crane just enough to remove the bolts and work the mounts out one at a time. There should be enough flex in the coolant lines etc. for them to stay in place. Just a caution though. If the shop crane isn't lifting exactly straight, the engine will get out of alignment with the chassis mount location. Factory Five changed and IMO greatly improved the motor mount spacers for my Coyote build. Of course I already had the engine installed. I was able to lift the engine enough to do the swap one side at a time. But the engine swung away from the mount each time and took some serious pushing and crowbar action to get back aligned. Only took a couple of hours total time, but it was pretty hard work.
    Last edited by edwardb; 05-07-2017 at 03:42 PM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  13. #13
    Well Used Member boat737's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgundermann View Post
    No engine expert, and far more experience will weigh in here, but - as you describe it and by the pics, it is very very close. I'd watch it over a couple long idling runs and see if the vibration and resulting friction clearances/fixes itself. A lot work for a few thousands...
    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    Also far from an expert compared to some on here. But I have some experience and no shortage of opinions. If it were mine, I would probably leave it as is. That's a rigid mount, so wouldn't expect vibration to be moving anything. Pretty heavy duty parts there. But that's strictly an opinion. Maybe someone else has a stronger opinion that it should be addressed.

    But I can give you real world experience for removing an engine mount on an installed engine. Yes, it's possible. I've done it twice. In both cases, I lifted the engine with a shop crane just enough to remove the bolts and work the mounts out one at a time. There should be enough flex in the coolant lines etc. for them to stay in place. Just a caution though. If the shop crane isn't lifting exactly straight, the engine will get out of alignment with the chassis mount location. Factory Five changed and IMO greatly improved the motor mount spacers for my Coyote build. Of course I already had the engine installed. I was able to lift the engine enough to do the swap one side at a time. But the engine swung away from the mount each time and took some serious pushing and crowbar action to get back aligned. Only took a couple of hours total time, but it was pretty hard work.
    Thanks men. I appreciate your input. Hopefully, more info (i.e. opinions) will be forthcoming, but I'm tentatively siding with you both. It is a lot of work for a few thousands.

    I'm wondering if by loosening the two block bolts a tad, I could maybe persuade (tap with a hammer) the mount to move back a fraction and relieve the interference? Are the holes in the mount bigger than the bolt to do that? The motor could stay where it is that way.

    As a side note, I think I'm one of the lucky few who had the engine sitting as correctly as possible from the initial install. Both exhausts were exiting/pointing as good as one could hope. Of course, both my mounts' locating pins are at there top most limit, so to change it, it would have been pull the motor and grind the frame slots open to adjust the motor alignment (pictures below). As it is, even if I have to (gulp) raise the motor (gulp) and fidgit with the motor mounts, it should go right back to the exact same spot. One thing in my favor at least, and one of the very few items that hasn't been an alteration, modification, upgrade, option, extra, fix, or addition. (Yet.) If I do have to do it (gulp), the body is scheduled to come back off in a month or so, so maybe I'll be able to make a more informed decision.

    Keep up the good work.
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    Last edited by boat737; 05-07-2017 at 04:19 PM.
    If Brute Force doesn't work, you're not using enough of it.
    Basic Stuff: MK4 Complete Kit #8439, Wilwood's, 17" Halibrands. Extra Stuff: Stainless brake and fuel lines, Breeze cooling, Battery mount, SS Roll Bar. Old Fart Stuff: Heater, Seat Heaters, Footbox Fresh Air, Stereo, Keyless ignition, Power Steering, Hyd Clutch.
    Young & Dumb Stuff: 427w Dart, TKO600, 3 link Moser M9/Ford 9", 3.5:1, Eaton TruTrac Posi. Graduation Thread

  14. #14
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    I'm not seeing a problem.

    Jeff

  15. #15
    Well Used Member boat737's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    I'm not seeing a problem.

    Jeff
    Thanks Jeff. I'm not sure if you are saying there isn't a problem, or that you don't see what the problem is. I apologize if I misunderstood you.

    To summarize my previous rants, the motor mount outside corner is contacting the block and preventing a perfect flush seating of the mount (in at least two spots.) It's where the edge of the mount flares out because of the 90 degree bend in the mount. You can see where the paint has been scraped off by the corner of the mounts. It's not much, but I can just get a .010" feeler gauge in that area of the boss where is should sit flush.
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    Last edited by boat737; 05-07-2017 at 04:43 PM.
    If Brute Force doesn't work, you're not using enough of it.
    Basic Stuff: MK4 Complete Kit #8439, Wilwood's, 17" Halibrands. Extra Stuff: Stainless brake and fuel lines, Breeze cooling, Battery mount, SS Roll Bar. Old Fart Stuff: Heater, Seat Heaters, Footbox Fresh Air, Stereo, Keyless ignition, Power Steering, Hyd Clutch.
    Young & Dumb Stuff: 427w Dart, TKO600, 3 link Moser M9/Ford 9", 3.5:1, Eaton TruTrac Posi. Graduation Thread

  16. #16
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    To really see if you have an issue you will need to take a picture from an entirely different angle. The camera needs to be parallel to the side of the flange that is bolted to the block so we can see if there is any light shining between the block, flange and around the bolt.
    Like this:
    You can see in this picture there is still a small gap as the back of the flange hadn't been filed enough to sit all the way flush on the block. If you don't correct this you are creating a load bearing force out of the reinforcement member on the block (which was never designed to carry that kind of force).
    IMG_5254.jpg

    I filed mine down with a round file (which took forever) but it creates a nice ovalized hole without any stress risers present in the metal. I learned from my aviation days that stress risers in metal can lead to fracturing of the metal over time. This picture shows about a quarter of the way through the filing process. When you are at the correct depth, you will be just about all the way through the inside edge of the bend in the motor mount:

    IMG_5220.jpg
    Last edited by aarvig; 05-08-2017 at 09:42 AM.
    Hurricane HM-2016, 9" Ford w/3.50, 427W, TKO 600.

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