Forte's

Visit our community sponsor

Thanks Thanks:  0
Likes Likes:  0
Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: First Start Fail - No Spark

  1. #1
    Senior Member phileas_fogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Fairfax Station VA
    Posts
    1,229
    Post Thanks / Like

    First Start Fail - No Spark

    Hi all,

    This past week I've been trying for first start with no joy. Engine is Forte’s 302 with Terminator EFI. I've also posted this thread on the other forum to maximize the number of folks who may be able to help.

    What I know:
    - My TFI coil (MSD 8227) isn't sparking. This I think is the first problem to be solved; with luck it's the only problem.
    - I'm using an MSD 8546 distributor.
    - Forte ran the engine on his dyno before shipping it to me about a year and a half ago. He delivered all the components (coil, distributor, EFI) that he ran. So everything was good at that time.
    - I’ve got an unusual wiring set up. I’m using the RF EFI/Coil wire to power my EFI computer, and using the EFI computer to power my fuel pump (these appear to work flawlessly). I’ve re-purposed the RF fuel pump circuit to power my coil. This circuit includes a relay, which may be contributing to the voltage drop at crank. Any thoughts on this?
    - I've got a Digital Guard Dawg push button start system. I don't believe this has anything to do with the problem, but include the information for completeness.

    What I suspect:
    - Because the coil isn't sparking, my Terminator EFI isn’t getting an RPM sync signal, and so won't even try to start the car.

    Troubleshooting efforts so far:
    - I determined that my Optima batter, which had just sat for 10 months, wasn't fully charged. That has now been corrected.
    - I confirmed that the coil is getting power. 12.5 volts at key on (with fully charged battery) and ~10.5 volts at crank.
    - On Tuesday, I was getting a single spark. Today, I got no sparks whatsoever.
    - I tried jumpstarting the car. ~14 volts at key on and ~11.2 volts at crank. No joy.
    - I tried powering the coil straight from the battery. No joy.
    - I tried powering the coil from the battery at jumpstart. No joy.
    - I measured the resistance between the positive and negative terminals (primary resistance) of the coil at 1.2 ohms. I measured the resistance between the positive and output terminals (secondary resistance) at 4.96K ohms. This matched the resistance between the negative and output terminals of the coil at 4.97K ohms.

    Forte’s engine builder isn’t ready to say the coil is bad; he said that usually if a coil suffers infant mortality it dies immediately, not after a short period of runs on the dyno. He also said that if I get one spark I should be able to get more. He suspects that I’m getting voltage back feed through a ground due to the relatively large drop in voltage from key on to crank.

    CraigS suggested the following (which I’ll probably try tomorrow):
    “Remove the 2 wire connector from the coil. Rig 12V to the + pin. Rig a jumper to the minus pin which will be touched to ground but temporarily let it hang and be sure it doesn't touch anything. Pull the center wire out of the distributer (leaving the other end in the coil) and hold it 1/8-1/4 inch from a ground. With your other hand grab the - jumper, touch it to ground for a second or two. Remove it from ground. At the instant the ground circuit opens you should get a spark from the coil lead to ground. What you are doing is replacing the low voltage part of the distributer w/ your jumper wire system.”

    Any other thoughts?


    John
    MK IV Roadster #8631
    Ford 302, Holley Terminator EFI, T5z, 3.55 Rear End, IRS, 17” Halibrand Replicas (9” front, 10.5” rear), Nitto 555 G2’s (275/40ZR17 front, 315/35ZR17 rear), Fast Freddie’s Power Steering, F5 Wilwood Brakes, FFMetal’s Firewall Forward, Forte’s Hydraulic Clutch & Throttle Linkage
    https://www.ffcars.com/threads/phile.../#post-4776313

  2. #2
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Boyertown, PA
    Posts
    683
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by phileas_fogg View Post
    Hi all,

    - I’ve got an unusual wiring set up. I’m using the RF EFI/Coil wire to power my EFI computer, and using the EFI computer to power my fuel pump (these appear to work flawlessly). I’ve re-purposed the RF fuel pump circuit to power my coil. This circuit includes a relay, which may be contributing to the voltage drop at crank. Any thoughts on this?
    - I've got a Digital Guard Dawg push button start system. I don't believe this has anything to do with the problem, but include the information for completeness.


    John
    Hi John,

    Lets start with the obvious. You have the coil, EFI, fuel pump wired very odd. Your re-purposing the RF pump circuit to power your coil. That's a relay (switch) . If you have zero volts at your coil, the switch is open. I would not recommend powering your coil through a switch. You want the RF coil/efi wire (orange I think) which is protected with a 15A fuse to power your coil and dizzy and you want the EFI/Crank power (lt. Blue I think) to power your EFI.

    I would work backwards methodically with a volt meter.
    Last edited by RickP; 05-26-2017 at 02:15 PM. Reason: SP

  3. #3
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Boyertown, PA
    Posts
    683
    Post Thanks / Like
    To clarify:
    The EFI/Coil wire is hot thru key on and crank. You need 12 volts at your coil and dizzy (assuming the MSD is a two wire distributor) at all times. The EFI Crank power is only hot thru crank. It reads minimal voltage at key on. Your EFI main power needs to come from the battery. When the Crank wire signals 12 volts, the EFI will send 12 volts to the fuel pump wire. After it gets what is needs, the internal switch on the pump wire opens. It will never close again until the engine turns over.
    Last edited by RickP; 05-26-2017 at 02:22 PM. Reason: SP again

  4. #4
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Boyertown, PA
    Posts
    683
    Post Thanks / Like
    And make sure the tip-over switch which is wired into the FR fuel circuit is closed (red button on top). That was one of my DUH moments when I wired mine.

  5. #5
    Senior Member phileas_fogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Fairfax Station VA
    Posts
    1,229
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thanks Rick. I freely admit my wiring is a bit goofy, and you've given me several things to track down.

    Keep those ideas coming, people!


    John
    MK IV Roadster #8631
    Ford 302, Holley Terminator EFI, T5z, 3.55 Rear End, IRS, 17” Halibrand Replicas (9” front, 10.5” rear), Nitto 555 G2’s (275/40ZR17 front, 315/35ZR17 rear), Fast Freddie’s Power Steering, F5 Wilwood Brakes, FFMetal’s Firewall Forward, Forte’s Hydraulic Clutch & Throttle Linkage
    https://www.ffcars.com/threads/phile.../#post-4776313

  6. #6
    bobl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Spicewood, Texas
    Posts
    491
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by RickP View Post
    And make sure the tip-over switch which is wired into the FR fuel circuit is closed (red button on top). That was one of my DUH moments when I wired mine.
    This reminds me. Some of the RF harnesses had a wiring error on the inertia switch connector. Do a search, I'm sure you'll find some discussion on one of the forums.

  7. #7
    Senior Member phileas_fogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Fairfax Station VA
    Posts
    1,229
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by bobl View Post
    This reminds me. Some of the RF harnesses had a wiring error on the inertia switch connector. Do a search, I'm sure you'll find some discussion on one of the forums.
    Yep; mine was wired incorrectly. Fortunately I had saved this thread http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-fact...-question.html and found it on a periodic review of stuff to do. An easy fix, but it would have taken FOREVER to figure out.


    John
    MK IV Roadster #8631
    Ford 302, Holley Terminator EFI, T5z, 3.55 Rear End, IRS, 17” Halibrand Replicas (9” front, 10.5” rear), Nitto 555 G2’s (275/40ZR17 front, 315/35ZR17 rear), Fast Freddie’s Power Steering, F5 Wilwood Brakes, FFMetal’s Firewall Forward, Forte’s Hydraulic Clutch & Throttle Linkage
    https://www.ffcars.com/threads/phile.../#post-4776313

  8. #8
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Boyertown, PA
    Posts
    683
    Post Thanks / Like
    Excellent. Now fire that sucker up and post a video of the big accomplishment!

  9. #9
    Senior Member phileas_fogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Fairfax Station VA
    Posts
    1,229
    Post Thanks / Like
    First start success!

    https://youtu.be/KmcR4zEHLx0

    I believe the problem was fully my fault. When we first tried to start the car, my battery had sat for 10 months and so didn't have enough volts to fire the coil. However, it did have enough amps to crank the engine, so we started investigating the coil. In the process of trying to figure out what the ECU configuration was, we turned off the parameter that told the ECU to control the engine timing. As a result, the TFI wasn't getting any signal to fire the coil.

    Today I reloaded the original ECU config files as delivered from Forte. I cranked the engine with the fuel pump unplugged and immediately saw the RPM sync signal on the ECU. Then I turned everything off, plugged the fuel pump back in, and the car started right up!

    I was working alone, so no video of the actual moment. But as you can see, the car is running!

    Thanks to RickP and bobl for responding; this helped me think through what may have been preventing the coil from firing.


    John
    Last edited by phileas_fogg; 05-28-2017 at 01:17 PM.
    MK IV Roadster #8631
    Ford 302, Holley Terminator EFI, T5z, 3.55 Rear End, IRS, 17” Halibrand Replicas (9” front, 10.5” rear), Nitto 555 G2’s (275/40ZR17 front, 315/35ZR17 rear), Fast Freddie’s Power Steering, F5 Wilwood Brakes, FFMetal’s Firewall Forward, Forte’s Hydraulic Clutch & Throttle Linkage
    https://www.ffcars.com/threads/phile.../#post-4776313

  10. #10
    Senior Member jrcuz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Stafford Virginia
    Posts
    675
    Post Thanks / Like
    Most excellent John, CONGRATS!
    JR
    Mk4 complete kit #9059 ordered 1/19/17 delivered 3/23/17, 2015 IRS, Fortes/DART347,TKO 600, hyd clutch, P/S, 12.88 wilwood brakes front and rear, heater/defrost and vintage gauges
    First start and go-cart 4/11/18. Taken To Whitby Motorcars Greensboro, N.C. 2/5/21 for body/paint

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Martin's Dent and Collision Shop

Visit our community sponsor