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Thread: No Rules Challenge Car

  1. #1
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    No Rules Challenge Car

    Sometime things happen when least expected. An unfinished Challenge Car came up for sale recently, thanks Bill. I jumped, an "early bird thing", and bought the car. I'll pick it up early June. Chassis 8885.

    I'm basically a new guy here, lots of reading but also posted about a friend that ordered a Gen 3 Coupe; his was delivered this past week.

    Currently a Superformance owner, but it's damaged and I think I'll sell it. Also owned a second one for a few years. I have about 65,000 miles in Superformance cars since 2004 and a fair amount of track time at Gingerman and Grattan, both are local for me. Two events on VIR South Track. Multiple cross country trips.

    The Challenge Car will be my first FFR and complete build, I'm looking forward to the project. No time frame, budgets and available time are always concerns. But I've been plotting and planning a build for many years now.

    Here’s the basics. It will be a streetable track car. The plan is to be as light as possible w/o compromising safety and reliability. It will also have sufficient power to make things interesting, one wouldn’t want the pavement to cool in their shadow. Not planning for sanctioned racing, a no rules build.

    Here’s the beginning of the plan.
    RDI (351z) aluminum 427w, about mid 500 hp or more, similar torque, 440hp/430tq at the wheels in current configuration. I have this motor. Going to try to bump power to high 500’s.
    Will probably add dry sump or hope to. Accusump system to start.
    TKO-600 .64OD have this too. It’s really a 4-speed with a highway cruising gear.
    New IRS, not pin drive, Torsen diff., 3.31 gears (got to find these). The car came with IRS and 3.73s.
    275 and 315 or 335 17s, Not sure about wheels
    Big brakes with power assist. Will need help on this.
    Power steering, car came with a power rack, not sure about pump and drive. Will need help here too.
    Coilovers not included w/ purchase. Looking for options.
    Not sure about sway bars but planning to install front & backs. Looking for options.
    Kirkey Vintage seats for the street and Intermediate RR for the track.
    Speedhut gauges
    Street completion kit.
    I expect to enhance the roll bar but not a full cage.

    I’ll need lots of help, mostly related to sanity, but I suspect I’m in the wrong place for that. I’ll have many questions. Hopefully I can contribute something to the group.

    Had my first ride in a Factory Five on Saturday. Rained otherwise I could have driven it. Challenge Car, T56 and a Viper motor. Interesting build, nice car, almost civilized but that may have been due to the rain.

    Jim

  2. #2
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    Jim,
    Sounds like fun already. I have a set of 3.31 gears that I removed from my '13 Shelby GT500. I will be glad to sell them for a good price. We will have to take shipping into consideration. If you are interested give me your zip code and I will get a shipping estimate.
    20th Anniversary Mk IV, A50XS Coyote, TKO 600, Trunk Drop Box, Trunk Battery Box, Cubby Hole, Seat Heaters, Radiator hanger and shroud.

  3. #3
    Mark Dougherty's Avatar
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    Congrats
    I was second inline on that car.
    Sounds like it will be a great build.
    The traveling Builder
    717-773-5624

  4. #4
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    Welcome and congratulations Here are a few thoughts on your plan;
    RDI (351z) aluminum 427w, about mid 500 hp or more, similar torque, 440hp/430tq at the wheels in current configuration. I have this motor. Going to try to bump power to high 500’s.
    Will probably add dry sump or hope to. Accusump system to start.
    TKO-600 .64OD have this too. It’s really a 4-speed with a highway cruising gear.
    -You could change to the .8? 5th gear. I would work out top speeds at your various tracks and either change the 5th or be real careful on choosing the diff
    ratio.
    New IRS, not pin drive, Torsen diff., 3.31 gears (got to find these). The car came with IRS and 3.73s.
    -Be real careful on gears. That 373 probably is a Torsen but not all the other available ratios fit the Torsen center section.
    275 and 315 or 335 17s, Not sure about wheels
    -Inexpensive Mustang wheels from American muscle are available in 9 and 10.5x17 The Bullits fit my 2015 IRS w/ the stock brakes. I have not been able
    to find any inexpensive wheels in >10.5 width to run 335s. I just can't justify $500/wheel for 335s. If you decide on 335s I'd look at 295 or 315 for the
    front. Yes, the standard 315s on 10.5s will fit on the front w/ 3+ deg negative camber and 800# or > springs and a 4 inch height.
    Big brakes with power assist. Will need help on this.
    -I would check w/ Levy on big Wilwoods so you can run manual brakes and stay w/ the Wilwood adjustable bias dual MC setup. As far as I know there is
    no way to have the dual MC and power and you REALLY want the dual MC..
    Power steering, car came with a power rack, not sure about pump and drive. Will need help here too.
    -I suggest you check w/ Breeze Automotive for his PS pump and lines. It is a better design than a stock old style Mustang pump. Also run a cooler.
    Coilovers not included w/ purchase. Looking for options.
    -I am really happy w/ my double adjustable QA1s from Breeze. I suppose the DA Konis might be a better shock but at least double the $
    Not sure about sway bars but planning to install front & backs. Looking for options.
    Forte has 3/4, 7/8 and 1.0 in front bars. FFR has a rear and I haven't seen any other rears yet
    Kirkey Vintage seats for the street and Intermediate RR for the track.
    -That will be fine as the basic seat is identical for both so mounting will be easy. But, don't buy a vintage seat until you have driven on the street w/ the
    roadrace seat. You probably will find that the rr seat is just as nice on the street as the track.
    Speedhut gauges
    Street completion kit.
    I expect to enhance the roll bar but not a full cage.
    Good luck. I am excited to follow your build.
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  5. #5
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    Thanks guys. I'm excited about the build, I'll update as I make progress. As indicated it will be kinda slow for now.

    Comments:

    Railroad - the gears sound great but the new 2015 Mustang IRS doesn't, from what I understand, work with the earlier gear sets. Perhaps I misunderstand the interchangeability and what you have.

    Transmission. I've shifted into 5th and then back to 4th on the road track at 140mph, not fun at all. I have many miles with 3.27s on the road and race track and found that on most tracks 3rd and 4th were all I needed, generally 140 is fast enough. My SPF would run 157mph (GPS) in 4th which is plenty fast. The 3.31s shouldn't reduce the top speed by more than a few mph. And I like the 2,200rpm 80mph highway cruising speed of the .64.

    Seats. Agreed on the Intermediate RR, I liked them in the Challenge car I rode in. Also think that they'll provide a bit more resistance to banging into the side bars that are a bit close to the head. Considering the options. I do think the vinyl covers of the Vintage seats will be better in the rain, I will get wet.

    I will contact the indicated vendors for their options. Suggestions appreciated.

    Thanks again guys.

    Jim

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim1855 View Post
    Thanks guys. I'm excited about the build, I'll update as I make progress. As indicated it will be kinda slow for now.

    Comments:

    Railroad - the gears sound great but the new 2015 Mustang IRS doesn't, from what I understand, work with the earlier gear sets. Perhaps I misunderstand the interchangeability and what you have.







    Thanks again guys.

    Jim
    That is entirely possible. It seems Ford increased the diameter of the pinion gear shaft, where the bearings are located.
    My gears did come off the Torsen carrier, but are of the standard 8.8 vintage.
    20th Anniversary Mk IV, A50XS Coyote, TKO 600, Trunk Drop Box, Trunk Battery Box, Cubby Hole, Seat Heaters, Radiator hanger and shroud.

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    November progress

    Remember me? I said I was slow but things are finally starting to move along. I hope the images work.

    Cage
    The forward cage has been added. This is a second hoop about 13 inches forward of the original hoop. Three horizontal tubes connect the two hoops. A center bar runs forward to the dash. There will be two additional short bars from the factory shoulder bars to the door cage alongside the seat, these will get installed later - currently shown in an approximate location using white pipe on the driver’s side. Bare frame weighs 485 pounds.

    CC Cage 2475.jpgCC Cage 2481.jpg

    Gas Tank
    Designed and fabricated a gas tank after deciding against a fuel cell. Tank is 18 gauge (.049) SS304 and has internal baffles. Not complete as the access panel with all plumbing needs to be designed and built into the top and then the top will then be welded in place. It holds 18.5 gal. The bottom of the tank is about a half inch above the center of the main frame rails. The straps secure the tank to lateral and vertical stops and all will be rubber isolated.

    CC Tank 2492.jpgCC Tank 2495.jpg

    Trunk
    Dropped the trunk floor about 3 inches and changed the support steel to accommodate the gas tank and provide more room for stuff. Also changed the side framework to allow storage compartments behind the rear tires and into the fender areas.

    CC Trunk 2459.jpg

    Engine Mounts
    I wanted the ability to move the engine forward if necessary. The engine mounts are now slotted flat plates and pedestals. This allows 3 inches of forward movement from the FFR location and 1 inch of side to side movement. At the lowest, the oil pan will be an inch below the frame rails, not sure where it will be when installed but a short air cleaner stud hit the hood during a test fit using the FFR provided mounts. The headers and driveshaft won't be built until all pieces are in the final location.

    CC E 2439.jpgCC E 2466.jpgCC E 2469.jpg

    Diff
    Mike Forte built an aluminum case, Torsen, 3.31 assembly for me; it weighs 82 pounds. A similarly configured iron case assembly is 105 pounds. I’m not a drag racer which is where Ford had problems with the aluminum case. Working on plumbing for a diff cooler, it should be similar to the plumbing Ford uses in the Mustangs.

    CC Diff 2489.jpg

    Dash
    Changed the angle of the dash support steel. Now about 8 degrees rather than the original 18 or so. I’ll have to fabricate a new I/P.

    CC Dash 2463.jpg

    With any luck and limited interruptions I'll have the suspension and brakes mounted soon. Need to start placing aluminum panels so I know where they go. Will also cut the body in half under the doors to facilitate independent front or rear removal.

    On another note, I’d really like to thank those here that have answered my many questions and provided guidance. Then there’s the guys at the machine shop that built the tank and cage. I can dream and design, they can build. They did let me paint the cage, my first time with a real spray gun, certainly won’t be mistaken for a professional job but it’s black.

    Jim
    Last edited by Jim1855; 11-12-2017 at 09:23 PM.

  8. #8

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Love The Cage Design & The Concept!

    Good Luck!

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    GoDadGo, Thanks. It's like having a my own set of monkey bars. The tuff part will be getting in & out between the bars and a street windshield. Jim

  10. #10

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim1855 View Post
    GoDadGo, Thanks. It's like having a my own set of monkey bars. The tuff part will be getting in & out between the bars and a street windshield. Jim
    Assuming that you will install a removable steering wheel, I think you will be in good shape.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Yama-Bro's Avatar
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    You have some nice modifications. I like the engine mounts and the roll bar in particular. On a some what related subject...I wonder why Factory Five doesn't make their engine mounts interchangeable some how? So you could switch one frame to use different engines.
    Started dreaming of a Cobra around 1987
    Purchased Complete Kit 6/9/2017, Delivered 9/4/2017, Rolling Chassis 3/30/2018, Engine Dyno'ed 3/4/2022, Engine installed 8/27/2022
    Click here for my build thread
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    Design Engineer at BluePrint Engines

  12. #12
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    Yama-bro. Thanks, comments appreciated.

    I had similar questions on the engine mounts and decided to change it; my machinist friend made it easy. I found a long time ago that being able to move the engine around helped during the installation and balancing things like side pipes and corner balance. Adjusting height is as simple as flat spacers.

    The mounts were designed around the 351W but with a few changes could hold most.

    Jim

  13. #13
    Senior Member Mesa Mike's Avatar
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    Sounds like it's not destined to be a challenge car so you can do anything you want. If you are keeping weight down no insulation or carpet is required. Build it for the track in way of suspension, breaks , shocks, sway bars, etc. And of course, the engine. Pay attention to cooling and oil flow. Put the gages where you can see them on the track.

  14. #14
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    Thanks Mike I agree on most of your suggestions but I still plan on more street driving than track so there will be a few comforts. Yes to light and I'm looking at where weight can be minimized but like everything there are compromises.

    There will be some heat shielding and carpet. The aluminum engine and diff certainly help to minimize weight but I'll keep the steel QuickTime bell housing. I'm trying to find lightweight wheels for the track, 17s or 18s would work. Probably Vintage 17s for the street and considering Enkei GTC01RRs for the track if the sizing is right.

    I've worked with oiling systems and have a full Canton AccuSump, canister oil filter and thermostat system; all have proven to work well. Not sure on what oil cooler but leaning towards the Setrab 925 as prior experience with the 915 wasn't quite what was needed. All plumbed with AN-12 lines.

    I'm planning towards adding a diff cooler if necessary will have temp gauges for trans and diff.

    I've got a long ways to go. I'll add build notes and photos as things move along. All suggestions are appreciated.

    Jim

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  17. #17
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    An update. Still way behind, lots to do, more changes to make. But then some things are moving along so until I figure out how to post photos this will have to do. Some of this is shown in earlier posts, some have been changed again. Sooner or later I have to start building.

    Engine mounts are done, all except for building a selection of spacers.
    The trunk floor has been lowered about 3 inches, new sheetmetal has been fabricated.
    The gas tank is formed and ready for access panels and welding the top. Needs a fill tube in the side.
    Suspension is hung but will probably come apart for new IRS bushings and ball joints.
    Evaluating shocks and springs. Leaning towards QA-1 DAs, not sure on springs.
    Working on sway bar designs, thinking about a bar in a tube with splined arms. Looking at options.
    Thru-holes are in place in the rear 4" crossmember. All electrical wiring, brake and fuel will run through these and between the frame rails.
    Added steel between the rear crossmember and the main crossmembers. A bit more area to attach seat mounts.
    Driveshaft loop is in place and removable.
    Input pinion parking brake rotor/adapter is in place. The mechanical parking brake caliper is part of the driveshaft loop mount. Haven't figured out what to do for an actuation lever and running a cable.
    The aluminum trans tunnel has been reformed in one piece.
    Added steel to the foot box floor.
    Building header flanges and sidepipe to header flanges. A full custom header system is in the works that will use with my old Firefly/Superformance sidepipes.
    Need new forward firewall and new dash.
    Started on brake & fuel line routing - sidetracked on this.
    There's a bunch more that needs to be designed, built, planned.

    Bought an Edelbrock Super Victor, should move the torque curve up a few hundred RPM, kinda like having traction control. But it will require a larger hole in the hood for a 14" air cleaner.
    Now have Levy/Wilwood 6/4 piston brakes and 2-piece rotors.
    Checking suspension travel for wheel offsets and sizes. Still planning on 17x11 & 17x9/10 and 18x11/12 and 18 x 9/10. Will have a street and track set-up. Most likely PS2s and R7s.
    Working on a T56 Magnum, not sure if this will happen or not.

    Jeeesh, I better get moving...

    Jim
    Last edited by Jim1855; 06-10-2019 at 03:12 PM. Reason: rearrange

  18. #18
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    No Rules Challenge Car 2023 update

    Hoo-che-mama, I’m way behind. It's been many years since my last build post. But I am now moving forward, albeit still slowly. Figured I’d better get an update in before 2023 completely passes us by.
    Happy New Year to all.

    Made a big commitment towards the build – headers and sidepipes.

    Long ago I decided to use the pipes from my SPF cars, a friend was the designer & builder of these. A kinda snarly sound, nowhere near quiet but I like ‘em. The muffler sections are slip-fit interchangeable. I have a sorta quiet pair and then two louder muffler section pairs. The sidepipes are all SS 304 and will be bright polished if I get around to it.

    Built fixtures to hold the sidepipes in place on the chassis, aligned with the body so headers could be built as the “bridge” between the sidepipes and heads. The fixtures allowed part removal and placement while holding good location registration. BTW, I build modular fixtures for a living, generally for dimensional measurement purposes.

    A local friend, Ethan, that builds headers and turbo plumbing for Audis fabricated the headers. He’s planning to build headers for a friend with a Gen 3 Coupe and aluminum 427W.

    Headers are 1-7/8" SS-304 with 3/8” thick plates at the heads and as the joining plate between the headers and sidepipes. I designed the head flanges in CAD and had these laser cut. Upside is the flanges fit w/o needing to open up holes or grind anything. The ARF 225 heads have 1-1/2” square ports, the 1-7/8” tubes match up well with minimal occlusion. The new headers are shorter than traditional FFR pieces and longer than SPF headers. Ultimately these will be high-temp ceramic coated. And, yes, I know that these are a one application use.

    The header to sidepipe flanges are copies of the 8-bolt, 4-hole square joining flanges that Supeformace uses. Header holes are 1-7/8”, sidepipe holes are 2” providing little opportunity for a mismatch.

    The photos show the basic install, fixtures and the head port configuration. In the multi header photos the SPF piece are faded grey, the new are raw stainless and longer.

    I’m certainly happy to entertain questions and know that this build is a bit out of the ordinary.

    Jim

    IMG_3080.jpgIMG_3114.jpgIMG_3167.jpgIMG_3173.jpgIMG_3191.jpg
    2016 Mk4 Challenge Car, IRS, 3.31 Torsen, RDI Aluminum 427w, AFR 225s, Vic Jr. ProSystems 780 HP, TKO-600 w/Liberty mods. Forward cage. Levy 6/4 piston Wilwoods. Not completed yet, will be a streetable track car.
    2004 Superformance MkIII #1855, 2007 Superformance MkIII #2584 purchased in 2012 both sold.

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  20. #19
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    2016 Mk4 Challenge Car, IRS, 3.31 Torsen, RDI Aluminum 427w, AFR 225s, Vic Jr. ProSystems 780 HP, TKO-600 w/Liberty mods. Forward cage. Levy 6/4 piston Wilwoods. Not completed yet, will be a streetable track car.
    2004 Superformance MkIII #1855, 2007 Superformance MkIII #2584 purchased in 2012 both sold.

  21. #20
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    Good to see the progress Jim. High quality work.

  22. #21
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Nice work keep it going!
    Coupe Kit Delivered 11/10/23

    Roadster Build thread: 2019-2022 https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...4-Build-Thread

  23. #22
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    Thanks guys. It's time for the West MI owners to get together.
    Mike's new garage might be a great place. Hooterville is a destination.
    Jim
    2016 Mk4 Challenge Car, IRS, 3.31 Torsen, RDI Aluminum 427w, AFR 225s, Vic Jr. ProSystems 780 HP, TKO-600 w/Liberty mods. Forward cage. Levy 6/4 piston Wilwoods. Not completed yet, will be a streetable track car.
    2004 Superformance MkIII #1855, 2007 Superformance MkIII #2584 purchased in 2012 both sold.

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