Proposed build - 33 Hot Rod

[jshoeffler]

So, I am planning on building a 33 Ford Hot rod from factory five but I am trying to get an idea how much to budget for the entire build. I know the kit itself will cost about $20k. I have picked out a coyote motor for about $8500 - $10K. How much should I anticipate for the entire build?

[NAZ]

That will depend on if you go donor or new and how much you have to farm out. Start a spreadsheet and list all the items you'll need and then double it. My wife tells me that whatever I budget for in time & money to double it. She's right more often than not. So far I'm over budget by more than my new Harley was going to cost, and it looks like paving my dirt road will have to wait til next year.

Remember, you're buying the experience.

[kraftee]

I totally agree with NAZ. Whatever you budget will get blown out the window (especially if you are paying someone else to do bodywork and paint!) Enjoy the build. The longer you take to build it, the more spread out the expenses are - and the less painful! I was originally POSITIVE I could build my 33 for $28K, since I already owned the donor. Ha. At this point, I am somewhere a bit over $45K and still have some upholstery work to be done... I am SO glad I built my car, since I tend to keep my toys and not sell them. The pride that you feel when someone compliments your car - and you tell them that you built it yourself, just can't be beat!

[DaveS53]

Although the kit seems relatively cheap, it also includes a lot of crappy parts that you may end up trashing. You're starting out with a top-rate motor, so it would be a shame to use a low-budget rear end to go with it. If you don't add the IRS, I'd get a quality 8.8 from Moser or perhaps a custom 9". The triangulated 4-bar setup is lame. It uses bars that have inadequate adjustment and they are too short. The 3-link bracket that attaches to a donor 8.8 is crappy too.

One thing I've recently figured out is that using a 59.5" wide rear end results in having wheels that look more like the ones on my new Corvette than a hot rod, since they have no dish. A common 56" width is probably too narrow, but it depends on the exact width across the body. The 20 x 10 wheels on my hot rod have 4.5" of back spacing that results in a really nice looking dish. The width of a real '33-40 frame is 44 inches at the rear wheels and the body is usually flush with the frame rails. I have a generous 1-1/4 inch of clearance between the body and tire, at the rear. 1" is adequate.

http://wescottsauto.com/WebCatalog/T...ram1933-34.pdf

http://wescottsauto.com/WebCatalog/T...ram1935-40.pdf

[Svtfreak]

Realistically? Figure 60k.

Kit-20
Motor/trans-12
Paint-10+
Wheels/tires-2.5
Rearend-1k
FF Options-5k up to you

Already we at 50k. Without trying to hard. For a basic build.

Now let's say you want power brakes. Add 1350$. Want to powder coat the aluminum panels? Add money. Want to use stainless brake lines, add 500$. Want to paint the frame body color and smooth all the weld? Add another 1500$.

So, for 50k, you can get a nice car that you ain't afraid to drive. That's assuming you do all the work except paint yourself. If you paint it yourself you can save about 7500$. To achieve real special car status, and spend the time and money on the little details, and really getting what FF didn't get perfect straight, the cost goes up.

I e prepared my wife by telling her it would be 80k once done. In reality, I expect to spend 60k, and that's doing nearly everything myself (I will save on paint as I am good friends with a painter, I have to do all body work). If you've never budgeted and built a car, the figuring cost and doubling is a good baseline. After you get some experience planning it, you think about the little parts, and know how much things are gonna cost ya, hoe much body filler and primer youlll need, etc.

I've been planning mine for 20 years, so I pretty much know I'll be real close to my figured cost. I could show you papers where I have the entire brake system drawn and it and what fittings are needed where lol. The more you put into planning, the better real idea you'll
Have of the cost.

[kraftee]

Dave. Not sure where you get that stuff about the rear end being too wide at 59.25" I feel like I've got plenty of "dish" in my 10" wide rear wheels with 4.5" of backspacing.

[erlihemi]

This is sounding like the 818 debate. I too thought I had enough donor parts for $30K build, but, once you swap fuel tanks, build a real exhaust, and put a hardtop on it that goes out the window fast. A coyote build is probably the most expensive route to go, but nicest in the end. (Baiting GoDad a little).
The other factor is your existing garage and tool pile. There is always tools on the list. Do I think I can build one under $40k, absolutely. Will I build one under $40k? Absolutely NOT!

I'll have fun while the shoulder keeps working though...

[DaveS53]

I agree that you should budget no less than $60K with good parts and that would not include paying someone to do all the paint and body work.

I have around $60-65K into my car, but the "roller" that I bought with radiator, gas tank, ride tech coil-overs, grille and Wilwood brakes cost almost $30K. I have a new LS3/4L65E "connect and cruise" drivetrain from GM, new Currie true-trac center section and Curries axles, custom dyno-tech driveshaft, Flaming River steering column and power steering rack and many other pricey hot rod parts.

On the other hand, I did all of the paint and body work and only spent about $2K to buy high-back racing seats, shoulder harnesses, and upholstered the interior with aluminum panels and boat carpeting. I also built a fully insulated fiberglass headliner that contributed over $300 in materials to that total cost.

[erlihemi]

Dave. Not sure where you get that stuff about the rear end being too wide at 59.25" I feel like I've got plenty of "dish" in my 10" wide rear wheels with 4.5" of backspacing.

I had the narrow fox body diff with 6.0" backspace and small disc brakes. I only have about 3/4" inside the wheel well and lots of dish. I could easily go 11" rim with a little less backspace. Hoosier A7 345/35/18 maybe?

[DaveS53]

Dave. Not sure where you get that stuff about the rear end being too wide at 59.25" I feel like I've got plenty of "dish" in my 10" wide rear wheels with 4.5" of backspacing.

I could be wrong about the backspacing, but I know I've seen some '33 cars with what appears to be little or no dish to the wheels. Some folks are using up to 1" wheel spacers too, which means the wheel doesn't fit.

If the 59.5 inch rear ends fits, then the body should be about 3.5 inches wider than a real '33 at around 47.5 inches, instead of 44 like my car. I found one thread that says the body is 45.5 inches wide at the back. That's only 1.5 inches more than a real '33. A better rear end width would be 57.5-58.

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/120-fac...tire-size.html

FFR sells rear wheels with 6 inches of back spacing. Since the rears are 11" wide, they have some decent dish to them. I'd say that a proper backspacing must be 6" with the 59.5" rear end.

http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/3394...-wheels-black/

[kraftee]

I'd say that a proper backspacing must be 6" with the 59.5" rear end.

Well, I did not use any wheel spacers, and from any angle, my rear end width versus the body "looks right" - and pretty much in line with what other FFR 33 builders have done. In fact, the FFR literature on the 33 states that the "...body is 3" wider than the original, has enlarged rear wheel wells, and rides lower to the ground." Further, I have never seen a thread devoted to narrowing the axle any further than the early Fox stock width. Quite frankly, if the wheels were tucked any closer to the body, it would look pretty strange on a fenderless hot rod. Dave, your car is absolutely beautiful, no doubt about that. You certainly knew what you were doing when you built it. But there are so many differences between it and a FFR kit that making recommendations, comparisons, and generalizations without having the two cars side-by-side is pretty much impossible.

[DaveS53]

Well, I did not use any wheel spacers, and from any angle, my rear end width versus the body "looks right" - and pretty much in line with what other FFR 33 builders have done. In fact, the FFR literature on the 33 states that the "...body is 3" wider than the original, has enlarged rear wheel wells, and rides lower to the ground." Further, I have never seen a thread devoted to narrowing the axle any further than the early Fox stock width. Quite frankly, if the wheels were tucked any closer to the body, it would look pretty strange on a fenderless hot rod. Dave, your car is absolutely beautiful, no doubt about that. You certainly knew what you were doing when you built it. But there are so many differences between it and a FFR kit that making recommendations, comparisons, and generalizations without having the two cars side-by-side is pretty much impossible.

What looks right should place the tire about an inch from the body. More than that serves no purpose and much less can result in tire rub, but I'm sure some folks use less clearance.

There should be a defined relationship between actual body width, rear end width and wheel backspacing that can be relied upon. It may vary a little if someone chooses to squeeze a too-wide tire on the wheel. Since I don't own a FFR '33 I can't measure it, but at least one owner claims the body is only 45.5 inches wide at the wheel well.

I can guarantee you that the 6" backspacing that's sold for the FFR '33 would not come close to working on a real '33 with the normal 56" rear end. You'd need about 1-1/4" wheel spacers to keep the tire an inch from the body.

You don't read about people using a different rear end width because most just build the kit per the instructions and may even prefer "modern" wheels with little dish. They certainly don't seem to mind using small diameter tires, either. A tire that's only 26" tall would never be found on are real '33 hot rod. That's what FF recommends with their 20" rear wheels.

[David Hodgkins]

What looks right should place the tire about an inch from the body. More than that serves no purpose and much less can result in tire rub, but I'm sure some folks use less clearance.

There should be a defined relationship between actual body width, rear end width and wheel backspacing that can be relied upon. It may vary a little if someone chooses to squeeze a too-wide tire on the wheel. Since I don't own a FFR '33 I can't measure it, but at least one owner claims the body is only 45.5 inches wide at the wheel well.

I can guarantee you that the 6" backspacing that's sold for the FFR '33 would not come close to working on a real '33 with the normal 56" rear end. You'd need about 1-1/4" wheel spacers to keep the tire an inch from the body.

You don't read about people using a different rear end width because most just build the kit per the instructions and may even prefer "modern" wheels with little dish. They certainly don't seem to mind using small diameter tires, either. A tire that's only 26" tall would never be found on are real '33 hot rod. That's what FF recommends with their 20" rear wheels.

Dave, generalizing what works on a FFR 33 vs a "stock" or "real" 33 shows that you don't understand that the FFR is an interpretation, not a replica. Comparisons between your NON-FFR build and the FFR 33 are only relative as well because they son't share the same geometry...

Have you built a FFR 33?

[DaveS53]

Dave, generalizing what works on a FFR 33 vs a "stock" or "real" 33 shows that you don't understand that the FFR is an interpretation, not a replica. Comparisons between your NON-FFR build and the FFR 33 are only relative as well because they son't share the same geometry...

Have you built a FFR 33?

I've read extensively about the FFR '33 for over a year, so I know that it varies substantially from a real '33. They share the same wheelbase and that's about it.

The car that I built also bears little resemblance to the '37 Ford that inspired the body, but it does use a frame with the same 44" width at the rear wheels and the same 56" wide rear end. It has much wider fenders to permit a 295 tire width. You might notice that my build is also not a traditional hot rod in any sense, it's a more modern interpretation, using a modern LS3 engine. The "big and little" tires tradition remains, but not with 15" wheels like those used many years ago. I use 17" in the front and 20" in the rear, just like the well known hot rod build shops do. The front tires are 25.5" tall and the rears are 30.5". That's a newer trend, but it began at least 10 years ago. Perhaps FFR caters more to those wanting to autocross their cars rather than build something with a hot rod stance.

All I've stated is that the really old idea of using wheels with some substantial dish seems to have given way to wheels like my new Corvette has, along with small diameter tires, even in the rear. I don't want that look myself.

I'm also saying that the rear end width doesn't seem to match the body width, unless you want wheels with little dish to them. My 10" wheels have 4 inches of rim from the outside edge to the spokes, with a 4.5 inch backspacing.

I have seen a recent FFR '33 build with big Mickey Thompson tires on it - 12x30" or 15 x31" in the rear and 8x26" in the front, but they use the old 15" rims. To get those tall tires under the car requires the kind of modifications that most kit car builders can't do properly. It requires either raising the lower coil-over mount, of lowering the upper, so the ride height places the shock at 40% compression, leaving 60% for upward travel of the rear tires. It also restricts your choice of disc brakes to a small diameter disc.

Here's an example of the no-dish wheels I was talking about. The 11 inch rear wheel had a 23mm offset and required a 25mm spacer to fit. That's why FFR sells a zero offset 11 inch rear wheel, so it fits. That wheel has a 6" backspace. That also means that a car having a 59.5" rear end and 4.5" backspace on the wheels has far more clearance than needed. This picture also shows that wheel opening is much deeper than a real '33. While the body may indeed be 3" wider than the original, the width beside the tire is not, if it's really 45.5".

[HVACMAN]

What looks right should place the tire about an inch from the body. More than that serves no purpose and much less can result in tire rub, but I'm sure some folks use less clearance.

There should be a defined relationship between actual body width, rear end width and wheel backspacing that can be relied upon. It may vary a little if someone chooses to squeeze a too-wide tire on the wheel. Since I don't own a FFR '33 I can't measure it, but at least one owner claims the body is only 45.5 inches wide at the wheel well.

I can guarantee you that the 6" backspacing that's sold for the FFR '33 would not come close to working on a real '33 with the normal 56" rear end. You'd need about 1-1/4" wheel spacers to keep the tire an inch from the body.

You don't read about people using a different rear end width because most just build the kit per the instructions and may even prefer "modern" wheels with little dish. They certainly don't seem to mind using small diameter tires, either. A tire that's only 26" tall would never be found on are real '33 hot rod. That's what FF recommends with their 20" rear wheels.

I'm not sure of the body width at the rear wheel wells but the frame is 49" wide at the rear of the passenger compartment.Frame Dimension.jpg

[Svtfreak]

Dave, the wheels on that black car are concave. Which is what seems to be the popular thing theses days rather than a wide lip. The spokes sit at the edge of the wheel and dish inwards. I'm not a fan of that look either? But it's better than flush. But, it's hard to judge what the proper rear end width is using wheels like that as the varying amount of concavity is hard to see, especially on flat black wheels.

[RoadRacer]

Each to his own.. I have the even wider '02 rear (62.25" IIRC), but I love (and choose) the race car/exotic car look of the wide track with non-dished wide wheels.

[myjones]

Each to his own.. I have the even wider '02 rear (62.25" IIRC), but I love (and choose) the race car/exotic car look of the wide track with non-dished wide wheels.

I bought the wide one too just so the wheels won't have as much dish.
Dale

[myjones]

Back to the budget
There are a couple polls online about the 33 build costs. Most agree that it's about $40K and goes up from there if you add big$ paint and one off parts.
Dale
7liter Hemi 33<budget buster>

[DaveS53]

Dave, the wheels on that black car are concave. Which is what seems to be the popular thing theses days rather than a wide lip. The spokes sit at the edge of the wheel and dish inwards. I'm not a fan of that look either? But it's better than flush. But, it's hard to judge what the proper rear end width is using wheels like that as the varying amount of concavity is hard to see, especially on flat black wheels.

Sure they are concave, but the overall look is no-dish, with the end of the spokes right at the outside of the rim. They even require a 1" spacer to fit. I would never use a 1" spacer to make a wheel fit. I know it's just a matter of taste, but it is NOT hot rod, IMO. Of course the 15" wheels or die folks think my wheels look awful too. Big time hot rod builders use the exact combo I have, quite frequently. Unfortunately, BFG quit making this entire line of tires, so I either have to buy front and rear tires that don't match or compromise with a 295/40/20 on the rear.

My spokes are also concave, but the ends sit 4" behind the outer edge of the rim, with a 10" rim width. If they were 11 inch, they would be 5 inches inside the outer edge of the rim, not flush with it. That a huge difference between flush with the outer edge and 5 inches inside.

[RoadRacer]

Back to the budget
There are a couple polls online about the 33 build costs. Most agree that it's about $40K and goes up from there if you add big$ paint and one off parts.
Dale
7liter Hemi 33<budget buster>

Sorry.. budget. I'm budgeting $35k to get it on the road and driving without paint. That's with minimal options and changes from "the book". No A/C or big brakes, basically just 3-link and hardtop options. Fenderless. Some donor parts like SBC motor and rear. The parts alone from FFR will be $24k. That doesn't leave me much for motor/trans/wheels/tires.

We'll see

(FWIW, I fully expect it to creep up closer to $40k)

[TxMike64]

... but it is NOT hot rod, IMO. ... Big time hot rod builders use the exact combo I have, quite frequently......

But that's YOUR opinion, and you know what they say about opinions... everyone has one and they all stink. And anyone who self-professes to know anything about hot rods should know that individual style is what defines hot rod, not a status quo style defined by a few celebrities. THAT by definition is Pop culture [popular you know]. If you define your hot rod style by what some big name dude does, and you like it, then good for you. But leave others to enjoy their individuality.

[erlihemi]

Returning to budget...
Kit $23k optioned
TKO $3k built
Rear $500 built donor
Bell, $1k clutch n flywheel
Engine $5k built not bought
Front mods $1k
Tires $1k
Boyd tank, real gauges, other choice pieces $1k
Plus consumables, tools, etc...

Yep , not finished and headed for $40k

Watching backspace and wheel choice debates...priceless. Did we scare off the original poster yet?

[TxMike64]

...Did we scare off the original poster yet?

Probably...

I don't know... are tools considered a "build" expense or a "living" expense? I'm so bad about buying tools that I've bought good tools at great deals just "cuz, you know, I might need it someday"!

[TDSapp]

are tools considered a "build" expense or a "living" expense?

I would normally say they are a living expense but I think it would depend on this question. Will you ever use the tool on something besides your hot rod built. If yes, then it is a living expense, if no, then it's a build expense. Happily you should be able to find another job to use a tool with so most of them are all going to be living expenses.



Tim

[erlihemi]

Most tools are a living expense, but initial purchases due to a specific project get capitalized heavily against that project, and depreciated on a project rather than annual basis. At least that's my version. My wife sees it as what project is being worked on when the credit card bill gets reviewed. Sometimes she gets tricked by where the money was spent. So for example she thinks everything from Home Depot, Lowes, etc comes out of the Equity fund for the cabin and is taken from that bucket regardless of it being sand paper for the Hot rod, rivet tools, abrasives for the Milwaukee etc. That way it doesn't hit the mad money account and she hasn't noticed how close to $40K I'm really getting on the rod. Fungible slush. The first project always costs the most. I actually made more money off the first garage I built than any vehicle project. I have 35+ years of tools, that have paid for themselves. The current garage owes me a lot and still isn't finished. Sweat Equity in all of it is priceless.

[Svtfreak]

I never count tools towards the project. Mainly, because I use them on other things. This is my 4th ground up build, plus untold number of modded cars. So I rarely need a tool any longer. This one needs some since I am doing a few things different. New brake line straightener and flaring tool due to using stainless and an. But itherwise, tools are not a cost of the build. If you are only building one, many tools that we think of as required can be rented. Especially automotive tools. Then there is the cost itself. Those that build more than one car or do other projects can justify spending more money. A one time project builder might can get away with a much less expensive harbor freight tool. Lastly, there is the level to which oh want. You can spend less money and do more physical work. Like sanding blocks and doing it all the old fashioned way. Or buying a big compressor and nice air tools. You can finish these cars with minimal tools, but the physical labor will be more involved. Many of us don't see it that way though and spend more money to invest less strenuous labor.

[DaveS53]

But that's YOUR opinion, and you know what they say about opinions... everyone has one and they all stink. And anyone who self-professes to know anything about hot rods should know that individual style is what defines hot rod, not a status quo style defined by a few celebrities. THAT by definition is Pop culture [popular you know]. If you define your hot rod style by what some big name dude does, and you like it, then good for you. But leave others to enjoy their individuality.

Your comments seem redundant, since I included IMO in my statements. Unless a person lacks free will, they can build their car any way they want.

All I want to do is put forth the FACTS about what tire/wheel combinations will fit, so readers can be educated about it. If you want to run tall tires, the frame or rear end will need to be modified and a lot of builders have no equipment to cut thick metal or weld, or the ability to figure out what needs to be done to fix the problem. I've read many times, the disappointment of builders who had to haul their car to a shop to have modifications done. In my area, hot rod builders charge $65 and hour for their time, so even a day of work will cost over $500.

I know that some people might think that all you have to do to put tall tires on the car is adjust the coil-overs to raise the car by 2", but that idea would be very wrong and something of a shock to some folks when they find out it doesn't work.