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Thread: Anyone having long term success without using a dry sump system?

  1. #41
    Senior Member DodgyTim's Avatar
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    I always assumed the concern was oil flowing in reverse up the block/head oil drain passages
    Untitled.png

    When we have one g of lateral load (could be acceleration, lateral or braking) the oil surface is 45 degrees to horizontal
    1 g lateral.png

    It gets worse though, at 1.5 lateral g's it becomes 56 degrees
    1.5 g lateral.png
    Last edited by DodgyTim; 10-06-2017 at 02:38 AM.

  2. #42
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    The factory aos is designed to allow the condensed oil to return to the sump. Is your aos plumbed back into the sump? This is a separate problem from cavitation, not unrelated tho if not plumbed correctly. Your scenario doesn't involve the head being filled with oil, only that you are losing oil thru your aos, thus lowering the volume for lubricating the engine.

  3. #43
    What factory AOS? Please show it to me. If you are thinking of the factory PCV system, that works fine for street engines with factory blow by and cornering at factory Gs. But it is not a catch can or AOS. It's just a system for venting the heads and crank of stock blow by and burning them by sucking the gases thru the intake. However it gets overwhelmed in loose built forged motors with powerful turbos, and high G track cars.

    That's why Crawford, Perrin, Killer Bee and a few more make AOSs, and those get overwhelmed in high G race cars by the oil exiting the head vents. Even Crawford admits they disconnect their drainback on their race cars and dump the oil into a large catch can that has to be emptied often at the track.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member SixStar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NevaLift2Shift View Post
    AX definitely does not have the sustained loads that HPDE's and road course generate, like you said. Another thing is engine braking on road courses have been said to be especially tough on the engine rods. They were not really designed to be pulled on (engine decel) vs pushed together (engine accel).
    You're right! AX generates MUCH higher G forces then HPDE does.

    Not sure I've ever seen a 3200# road race car on two wheels in a perfectly flat corner at a DE event

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  5. #45
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    Just a suggestion, but have you considered a small electric pump, float level switch actuated, to return said oil to your sump? Or how about adding a scavenge stage to your ds pump?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by lance corsi View Post
    Just a suggestion, but have you considered a small electric pump, float level switch actuated, to return said oil to your sump? Or how about adding a scavenge stage to your ds pump?
    If this was meant for me: I don't have an AOS, never have used one. My DS systems run fully sealed and pull 7" to 12" of vacuum on their scavenge. You may be confused by the quote I posted earlier, it was just an example (one of many) from a thread on NASIOC.

    BTW, I too have a Killer B pan for sale. It's off my Spec B that spun a bearing in the first twenty minutes of track time at Oregon Raceway Park. I've also been an instructor for a first time WRX HPDE driver at ORP. On his last session of the day when he was stepping up the speed he too spun a bearing, but on the oem system.
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  7. #47
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    I question whether the subie platform is a good candidate for racing. I have watched the wrc for years, Subaru specifically, but they don't say anything about their engine woes. I'm sure they have some. Obviously they dont want to shed dim light on their marque.
    The subie motor is a very precise piece and apparently won't tolerate much abuse before giving up. There. I'm finished with this. If you want your subie based 818 to hold up, don't try racing it. Happy Dry Sumping!

  8. #48
    Seems to me the obvious design limitation is Subaru’s not having designed in a method to keep the oil in the pan during hard cornering in the first place. Seems possible to build some 1-way flapper doors that would allow oil to normally drain out of the heads but would slam closed when hit with a big slug of high-g oil coming the other direction. I can think of three places: the bottom of the block, the drainback holes in the block and the drainback holes in the heads. I am not yet familiar with the bottom of the block, but this would seem the most likely place to let gravity keep the doors open. I would then hinge them at their outboard sides and limit their downward movement depending on space available.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Blwalker105 View Post
    Seems to me the obvious design limitation is Subaru’s not having designed in a method to keep the oil in the pan during hard cornering in the first place. Seems possible to build some 1-way flapper doors that would allow oil to normally drain out of the heads but would slam closed when hit with a big slug of high-g oil coming the other direction. I can think of three places: the bottom of the block, the drainback holes in the block and the drainback holes in the heads. I am not yet familiar with the bottom of the block, but this would seem the most likely place to let gravity keep the doors open. I would then hinge them at their outboard sides and limit their downward movement depending on space available.
    Cosworth makes, or made, that using rubber gates. It also includes a builtin crank scraper. I bought four of them used from the Vermont Sports Car Team, the guys that build/race the Subaru rally cars in North America :
    https://www.rallysportdirect.com/par...control-baffle



    The rubber gates eventually start to sag and have to be replaced, but most race engines are torn down anyway before that becomes an issue.

    If you've never looked over the Vermont Sports Cars Project Cars they are pretty awesome! http://vtcar.com/projects/
    Last edited by Sgt.Gator; 10-08-2017 at 12:29 PM.
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  10. #50
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    I wondered the same thing. People make baffles for the LS series engines that have a bunch of hinged gates. Not sure why this isn't done with Subaru.

  11. #51
    There you go! But rubber seems like a strange choice unless you just want to guarantee more income by making people purchase them based on time intervals. A better, lifetime choice of door material would be stainless steel, assuming the baffle plate is made of similar material. Continually being bathed in oil would ensure a constant lubrication barrier from metal actually hitting metal during closing sequences. Each door would have individual rubber-tipped stops to limit downward travel to, say 1/8”. I’d buy one in a heartbeat.

  12. #52
    OK, this age-old Subaru lubrication problem has been longing for a solution and it has inspired me to really put my thinking cap on. I can't give too much away just yet, at least until my patent-attorney meeting in 2 weeks, but I am pretty confident I can at least substantially ease the burden of this system by keeping the oil from back-flowing into the heads and keeping the pickup covered out to between 1.2 - 1.5 lateral g's. In stock and aftermarket pans, oil starts to leave the pan at 0.75 g's and can un-port the pickup at 1 g.

    Stay tuned!

  13. #53
    Oh, I almost forgot...it will be compatible with all WRX and STI oil pans, stock pickups as well as KillerB pickups, oil pans and maybe Moroso pickups with a little grinder work.

  14. #54
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    "The factory aos is designed to allow the condensed oil to return to the sump." * I disagree.
    What factory A/OS system are you referring to in your statement? Are you referring to what's at the back of the case under the PVC valve? Are you mixing aftermarket systems in with the factory emissions system? Under what conditions does it do this?
    As to aftermarket A/OS I have seen so many people who are afraid of "dirty mayonnaise" or blowby getting back into the engine. They collect oil and yes, the engine can get low on oil.
    Unless you use the magical Killer B valve you will see oil coming out of the engine under racing conditions where lateral G's are experienced. You need to let it drain back into the engine (and not back into the intake manifold).
    *Let's say, for example, the stock system of 2004+ WRX's and Sti's; EJ255's and up. They are not capable of dealing with blowby and oil from the head breathers when boost is elevated and high G's are involved.
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  15. #55
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    I am skeptical. KB's oil control valve helps keep oil from escaping the heads under high g's. What do you have that keeps the oil pickup from cavitating under high G's? I doubt you are talking about working with a stock pan or stock pickup. There have been numerous designs by Rallye team engine designers and others. I doubt any are full-proof under sustained, high lateral G's. There are lots of solutions/options out there so what is new that you have to offer?
    As to solutions for road racing engines, I am living testament to built engines living through many seconds of G's in the 1.0 to 1.3 range with spikes of 1.5 without issue. I am using standard KB pieces and a two quart Accusump. I run 8+ quarts of oil. I am at 470 WHP and turning 7K RPMs. I data log in the sense that I video my gauges and I have had several engines survive the rigors of road racing without a failure.
    There is a huge chasm between trying to push a stock engine in a track capable 818 and a purpose-built engine designed for road racing, where the oiling system has been carefully tended to.
    Voodoo in the pan is not needed. IMHO, if you get to sustained 1.5 G's you should go to DS and not be trying bandaids.
    I could be wrong. There will always be the 818 owner who will run a basically stock engine on the track. Perhaps your solution will help those engines survive.
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  16. #56
    Senior Member EODTech87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blwalker105 View Post
    OK, this age-old Subaru lubrication problem has been longing for a solution and it has inspired me to really put my thinking cap on. I can't give too much away just yet, at least until my patent-attorney meeting in 2 weeks, but I am pretty confident I can at least substantially ease the burden of this system by keeping the oil from back-flowing into the heads and keeping the pickup covered out to between 1.2 - 1.5 lateral g's. In stock and aftermarket pans, oil starts to leave the pan at 0.75 g's and can un-port the pickup at 1 g.

    Stay tuned!
    I thought the problem was that the oil was being pumped into the heads through the normal oiling system and staying there under sustained G's?
    -Jason

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by EODTech87 View Post
    I thought the problem was that the oil was being pumped into the heads through the normal oiling system and staying there under sustained G's?
    ^ Exactly This.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blwalker105 View Post
    Oh, I almost forgot...it will be compatible with all WRX and STI oil pans, stock pickups as well as KillerB pickups, oil pans and maybe Moroso pickups with a little grinder work.
    Bully for you & your ideas. Don't pay any attention to the naysayers, they have no vision. All they can do is throw darts.
    First, however, you may want to level the engine to give yourself a fighting chance. I raised the front of my motor 1.25" to achieve proper attitude.
    Btw, if you plan to patent your device, it'll be a long costly venture. I hope you are successful.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by EODTech87 View Post
    I thought the problem was that the oil was being pumped into the heads through the normal oiling system and staying there under sustained G's?
    Not really. Where's the proof?

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by EODTech87 View Post
    I thought the problem was that the oil was being pumped into the heads through the normal oiling system and staying there under sustained G's?
    Only partly, and considering the inherent design limitations of the boxer engine, Subaru got it mostly covered for the 98th percentile of their intended market. And I couldn’t agree more that anyone pulling sustained 1.2 - 1.5 lateral g’s needs a dry sump system. I’m aiming at the people looking for some extra protection in the .9 - 1.2 range.

    Our engines with 5 qts of oil run with about 3 qts in the sump and 2 qts circulating (and yes, I can quote a MIT study). After about 6 seconds at 1g, as much as 1 qt leaves the oil pan and goes back up the lower crankcase area and into the cylinder head. This adds immense pressure on the stock oil drainback design. Couple this with say, a high g right-hander quickly followed by a high g left and it can become painfully easy to unport the oil pickup, stock or otherwise. Heavy braking also sees oil leaving the pan, which when followed by a sustained high g turn can have nasty consequences. Overfilling the oil level does get you some added insurance at the sump in return for adding even more oil mass for overwhelming the heads.

    Magical valves aside, if one can keep the oil in the sump, I believe most of one’s problems will be solved.

  21. #61
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    So far the magic valve along with the other components are working for me.

  22. #62
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    I do not wish to pop anyone's bubble. Also, I have been doing things "outside the box" on my STi race car and I've yet to have an engine failure or oil related issues.
    Yes some is pumped out by the camshaft oiling and stays behind during G's, but the other side is not having the oil staying in the head.
    I mentioned rally engines. There is one or more baffle designs that completely surrounds the pickup and at the perimeter it is sealed. I think this is to stop slosh from the extremes of rallying more than anything else. One-way flaps are employed by Cosworth as I recall.
    Builders and designers DO worry about oil leaving the pan as there are many windage-baffle designs to attest.
    Overfilling may rob power and introduce air into the oil. I stick to 1/2 quart over and use the KB baffle.
    I have one turn at New Jersey Motorsports park that is slightly banked and gives me sustained G's for ten seconds. I calculated that I would probably run out of pressure assistance from the two quart Accusump before I exited. As I said, my car has done sustained 1.2~1.3 G's depending on banking. I have not seen any pressure loss. That's also with my 8.5 quart system, that includes a big external filter block and a big oil cooler (on the wrong side of the car for that particular right-hander) to help out. Do I have a magical combination or Midas touch? Add in that I do extensive oil pump and gallery porting.
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  23. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Scargo View Post
    I do not wish to pop anyone's bubble. Also, I have been doing things "outside the box" on my STi race car and I've yet to have an engine failure or oil related issues.
    Yes some is pumped out by the camshaft oiling and stays behind during G's, but the other side is not having the oil staying in the head.
    I mentioned rally engines. There is one or more baffle designs that completely surrounds the pickup and at the perimeter it is sealed. I think this is to stop slosh from the extremes of rallying more than anything else. One-way flaps are employed by Cosworth as I recall.
    Builders and designers DO worry about oil leaving the pan as there are many windage-baffle designs to attest.
    Overfilling may rob power and introduce air into the oil. I stick to 1/2 quart over and use the KB baffle.
    I have one turn at New Jersey Motorsports park that is slightly banked and gives me sustained G's for ten seconds. I calculated that I would probably run out of pressure assistance from the two quart Accusump before I exited. As I said, my car has done sustained 1.2~1.3 G's depending on banking. I have not seen any pressure loss. That's also with my 8.5 quart system, that includes a big external filter block and a big oil cooler (on the wrong side of the car for that particular right-hander) to help out. Do I have a magical combination or Midas touch? Add in that I do extensive oil pump and gallery porting.
    I, hopefully, will shortly be in need of someone to field-test my part with regard to high-g cornering & braking loads and I like your multi-faceted approach regarding going above and beyond design limitations. I’ll pm you as things progress.

  24. #64
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blwalker105 View Post
    I, hopefully, will shortly be in need of someone to field-test my part with regard to high-g cornering & braking loads and I like your multi-faceted approach regarding going above and beyond design limitations. Iíll pm you as things progress.
    I'd be glad to entertain a different concept if I can. I hope to get far along on my 818 this winter that I might be able to try something. The 818 would be the obvious candidate. I'd like to avoid the hit of a dry sump system, financially, complexity and weight-wise.
    Perhaps someone else would be better positioned to do the testing? I do have a street toy '07 STi I'm building an engine for, as we speak. It would be problematic finding a place where I could exert high G's, outside of a few highway interchanges. Even then I would need an oil pressure gauge (which it will have) and datalogging capability or a GoPro to monitor it. I have all these capabilities but it may be more effort than I want to expend (unless it was going on the 818). I do plan on having full datalogging on it.
    Perhaps somewhat relevant: With my current '08 track car I have two places I monitor oil pressure. One is straight out of the pump prior to the oil filter and the other at the rear of the right gallery prior to entering the right head (so it sees pressure at #5 main bearing/thrust bearing and #4 rod journal). I see at least a 10 PSI differential.
    I've documented this before elsewhere but here is a link to my post in NASIOC about the engine's oiling system and my approach to modifying it. All this has been proven out this season, along with my external oil pressure control valve mod, in my current engine with 20+ track hours on it.
    "Scotty, give me all the TRACTION she's got!" Pictures of what I drive till 818R is finished

  25. #65
    I’ll be upfront and admit that I do not have a functioning vehicle to test it out on at the moment. My design shares some basic similarities to an oil control device currently on the market, but I would feel horrible if I ruined someone’s engine. So, at 3am this morning, I awoke to a plan that my inner mechanical engineer must have been working on behind my conscious one’s back.

    I happen to have my donor’s ej205 long block on a tiltable engine stand. My plan is to remove the spark plugs and attach a 3 hp electric motor to the crank pulley. I figure anything around 1500-1700 rpms will assure me of full oil pressure. I will then drill two holes, top and bottom of the oil pan, weld in bungs and cobble up a sight glass tube to see the actual oil levels during operation. I can then compare stock levels and pressures vs my device’s levels and pressures at different engine angles simulating anything out to 1.5 or so lateral g’s. Should be enlightening.

  26. #66
    Let me rephrase that: I am not a mechanical engineer by education, but I know there’s one hiding inside somewhere.

  27. #67
    Bill, you could have McGyver hiding inside!
    I don't fully understand what you "R" guys are talking about, but I look forward to pictures and results of your idea.
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  28. #68
    Lol!! Thanks Pete. More than a few of my friends call me McWalker!

  29. #69
    Factory Five: Bringing out the MacGyver in all of us.

  30. #70
    Any updates? Not be be impatient, but my picking up an 818c this weekend (trading my current track beast) fully depends on my being able to insure no oil starvation during HPDE LOL

  31. #71
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    Pretty close to being on two wheels in steady cornering. Rear wheel is off and front is barely touching. I have recorded 1.5 G's, though, like in autocross, it is not very sustained. Sustained is at 1.3. My STi weighs 2,800 pounds.

    Just saying that I have run my car for years with Killer B pan, pickup tube, baffle and an Accusump without a single bearing failure.
    That's at Watkins Glen, Lime Rock Park, Palmer Motorsports Park (pictured), New Jersey Motorsports Park, New Hampshire Motor Speedway, Club Motorsports and Thompson Speedway.
    hard cornering STi.PNG
    "Scotty, give me all the TRACTION she's got!" Pictures of what I drive till 818R is finished

  32. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by kaj750 View Post
    Any updates? Not be be impatient, but my picking up an 818c this weekend (trading my current track beast) fully depends on my being able to insure no oil starvation during HPDE LOL
    Won’t be ready quite that fast, but as Scargo has replied, there are some great products out there to address your fears. I certainly wouldn’t let that be a deal-breaker.

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