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Thread: Anyone having long term success without using a dry sump system?

  1. #1

    Anyone having long term success without using a dry sump system?

    Is anyone having relatively long term success tracking these cars hard without using a dry sump system? If so, can you describe your setup?

    It looks like I just put a rod through the crankcase. I haven't torn it down yet to see if I can determine the cause yet but my assumption is an oiling issue. Giant fireball when that happened.

    Before I start looking for another motor, I'm interested in what has been working for others.

    Thanks

    Skip
    818 flames.JPG

  2. #2
    Sorry to hear that. Hope the fireball didn't do too much collateral damage!
    What type oiling system were you running? Stock? Killer Bee pan? Accumulator (Canton or Moroso)?
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  3. #3
    How is it that guys with WRX's and STi's can beat the snot out of their cars on the track with no issues, but the 818Rs are blowing up engines left, right and center?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Turboguy View Post
    How is it that guys with WRX's and STi's can beat the snot out of their cars on the track with no issues, but the 818Rs are blowing up engines left, right and center?
    Because 818Rs corner at much higher G forces. A better comparison would be Unlimited Time Attack STI's which almost all now run dry sumps.
    Last edited by Sgt.Gator; 09-25-2017 at 09:58 AM.
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  5. #5
    Motor is (was) an 03 WRX with VF39 turbo and pink injectors. It was pulled this way from the donor and I don't know its history. I added STI oil pan, 2QT accusump and external oil cooler. I just had it tuned and was about 290HP.

    For the little time that it ran, this car was 10 seconds a lap faster than my 4.6L DOHC cobra around Barber and I haven't had enough time to even figure out how to drive it yet. It blew on the 4th lap. I've had it on the track twice before and didn't make more than 3 laps before experiencing other issues that I had to fix, wheel bearing the first time, fuel starvation the second.

    These cars will be stupid fast and stupid fun if you can get the motor to hold together.

  6. #6
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    Sorry to hear of the engine issue lclevert!

  7. #7
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    You can look at my setup in "first 818 coupe" build. I haven't updated it for a while, but my custom oilpan & swinging pickup is shown there. I have about $150 in it plus time. Haven't tried it yet but it will work! I've also added a remote filter with a larger oil filter & oil cooler.

  8. #8
    Been there, done that....
    First time, ran with the killer bee set up, took out a rod bearing. Second time, pulled it to 9K with the dry sump and the rod came through the top, aaaaaand FIREBALL!

    With all due respect to Killer bee, They make awesome stuff, for an R model, I just would not recommend it (just my opinion, please don't take it as in anyway dissing the product).
    All my pics are too big for the site, but I can email them if you PP me your email address. Great system.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    I think Mitch Wright is running a killer Bee setup successfully.
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...2-818r-ncm-msp

    Bob
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 09-26-2017 at 12:21 AM.
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  10. #10
    Without a drysump it's just a matter of time I'm afraid. Heck- With a drysump there can be issues.
    Thanks- Chad
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  11. #11
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C.Plavan View Post
    Without a drysump it's just a matter of time I'm afraid. Heck- With a drysump there can be issues.
    I agree with Chad. I'm was running stock 04 FXT tune. (194hp) engine had 90k on it.
    I was running accusump. I lost rod bearings during my 6th track day. About 30 hours running at race pace.
    I now have dry sump system.
    Bob
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Turboguy View Post
    How is it that guys with WRX's and STi's can beat the snot out of their cars on the track with no issues, but the 818Rs are blowing up engines left, right and center?
    I was out at the track a month ago and met a guy with a WRX that had quite a bit of suspension work, some sticky street tires and blew his engine that day. He had a G meter on his phone and was consistently pulling 1.2G's and peaking at 1.5G's. That track had lots of long double apex high speed sweepers. It was his 10th day out at the track, so it wasn't immediate. A lot of similar issues with 818's, it doesn't blow immediately, but 5-10 track days, starts getting a knock. Of course, more G's will shorten the engine life if oiling is not sufficient.

    I'm very cheap, but I felt it is a cost savings to go with a dry sump system. If you are going to track your car, your engine will not last with a wet sump. It will last longer with a dry sump.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by NevaLift2Shift View Post
    I was out at the track a month ago and met a guy with a WRX that had quite a bit of suspension work, some sticky street tires and blew his engine that day. He had a G meter on his phone and was consistently pulling 1.2G's and peaking at 1.5G's. That track had lots of long double apex high speed sweepers. It was his 10th day out at the track, so it wasn't immediate. A lot of similar issues with 818's, it doesn't blow immediately, but 5-10 track days, starts getting a knock. Of course, more G's will shorten the engine life if oiling is not sufficient.

    I'm very cheap, but I felt it is a cost savings to go with a dry sump system. If you are going to track your car, your engine will not last with a wet sump. It will last longer with a dry sump.
    Flop tubes and swinging pickups are currently used in roadracing motorcycles, aerobatic planes, and road racing cars. They offer a much simpler solution that most people can afford. I've heard a lot of horror stories about ds systems, loose fittings, thrown belts, bad seals, plus the cost. The goal is to keep your oil pickup in the oil, no matter how you do it.

  14. #14
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    I am using a wet sump without issue to date. I do collect data via my AIM MXL and Cobb Data Port and have yet to see any oil pressure drop during high G cornering or oil temp issues. (we have a number of long high load high G 1.5-1.7 corners here on slicks)
    Bob is correct I am using a KB pan, pick up and windage tray and oil control valve and Crawford AOS.
    Only based on what I have seen from data on my car a question I ask is could loosing a bearing/rod be caused by something else like detonation? In no way am I saying a DS is a bad idea but I do believe a good wet sump can do the job.
    Last edited by Mitch Wright; 09-27-2017 at 04:24 PM.

  15. #15
    We run slicks, and used to run the killer b set up with an aos, lost a rod bearing first time out. For all I know, it could be under braking, as we pull massive g's in the brake zones as well.

    If things are working for anyone running a pan set up, I say go for it. Our experience is just different. BTW, anyone want to buy a Killer B set up?

  16. #16
    Mitch do you overfill at all?

    I've been on and off involved in a LeMons effort pretty much since the series started (2007 if memory serves me correctly) and the only motor we've ever gone through was due to a missed shift. Sure we aren't pulling 818R G levels, and it's not an EJ, but I'd bet since the engine was R&R'd a few years ago it's seen an average of 30 hard hours of racing and track days per year and never had an issue and our only precaution is to overfill by a quart and top off every few hours.

    I ask because I would do the same if I were to track my 818S, but given the angle of the engine I'm already nearly an inch over the full mark on the dip stick and would start to worry about the front of the crank hitting the oil.

  17. #17
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    I overfill mine. Not nearly an inch though. Probably 1/2". Knock on wood, no issue yet. Running a stock deep oil pan (04-07 STI and 06-07 WRX), killer b pickup, killer b baffle, and crawford AOS. Running Star Specs, not slicks (though people say those are better than many slicks). I also check and top-up if needed between runs. These engines can consume a surprising amount of oil on the track and I often wonder if people are running them low without realizing it. Not suggestion that's the reason for everyone's or anyone's failure though - just wondering. I know when I ran Mobile1, I was shocked when I checked the oil after a session. It lost what appeared to be a quart. Switched to a different oil and now it only burns up to about .5 to 1 qt after five 20-minute sessions. My engine is a stock EJ255 out of a 2007 WRX donor which had 60k miles on it when I pulled it. I've put about 3,000 street miles on it and 18 hard track hours.

    I REALLY didn't want to post this because I feel like I'm tempting fate!
    Last edited by Hindsight; 09-27-2017 at 07:21 PM.

  18. #18
    Are you overfilling by volume? Or just on the dip-stick? I'm supposed to fill up with 4.5 quarts, but I always give it the full 5qt jug.

    I didn't want to be the guy that pointed out the obvious but as discussed previously you should be a healthy amount over the original full line because the angle of the engine is backwards from what it used to be in the donor car. Seat of my pants guesstimate but 1/2" sounds reasonable.

    And yes, every turbo motor burns oil when run hard. Even the top-tier now defunct LMP1 cars would fill 'er up with every tire change.

  19. #19
    Senior Member SixStar's Avatar
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    Killer B pan, pickup and tray. 6.5 quarts. No issues for ~3 years now.
    Owner/builder - AEM Intakes 818R #85

  20. #20
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    I run 6.5 quarts of 15-50 Mobil 1 Racing oil. The data shows my oil pressure stays consistent related to RPM low oil pressure of 60psi and high of 85psi (water temp 175 oil temp 175) once the oil temp get to around 220 and above the high is high 70's - low 80psi range.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by phil1734 View Post
    Are you overfilling by volume? Or just on the dip-stick? I'm supposed to fill up with 4.5 quarts, but I always give it the full 5qt jug.
    Just dip-stick. That is a good point about the tilt of the engine. The transmission fluid level ends up being very high on the dipstick when filling with the OEM quantity of oil. I cut a new notch in the transmission dipstick. Probably should do the same with the engine, but for now I just over fill it to where the oil level is somewhere around the bottom to middle portion of the twisted part of the dipstick. But the issue for me is that I can't really do engine oil by volume because I have a remote oil cooler and about 12' or so of -10AN hose going to and from it. I have no clue what volume I'm running, and while I could probably calculate it based on hose size and oil cooler volume, I'll probably just stick with the dipstick.
    Last edited by Hindsight; 09-28-2017 at 02:46 PM.

  22. #22
    SixStar, Mitch, Hindsight,
    Are you running an accusump? How do you use the car, (autocross, track day, time trial, racing)? How hard do you push it, right at the grip limit or 8/10 and having fun?
    818R Build date 10/31/15

  23. #23
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    No Accusump for me. I'd love one, but haven't made it a priority over other improvements. I run track-days and drive it on the street. On the track, I drive pretty close to, or right at 10/10ths of my ability which is evidenced by my going off the track about 4 or 5 times this year at two different tracks.

  24. #24
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    Driving at the limit is relative to drivers experience and skill IMHO. Lap times the car is running are more than competitive when compared to NASA ST2/TT2 times run here at NCM.
    No I don't have a Accusump, the car is tracked and is driven very aggressively. No I haven't raced it yet but have a lot of track miles on the car.
    Last edited by Mitch Wright; 09-29-2017 at 11:42 AM.

  25. #25
    Senior Member SixStar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielsDM View Post
    SixStar, Mitch, Hindsight,
    Are you running an accusump? How do you use the car, (autocross, track day, time trial, racing)? How hard do you push it, right at the grip limit or 8/10 and having fun?
    No Accusump. Mostly AX for now. It's done two TT events with two more this year. All racing, all 10/10ths.

    https://youtu.be/5dWTh6CllZM
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  26. #26
    After tearing the engine down, it does not look like my problem was oil starvation related. I broke the #1 rod for some reason. One of the rod cap nuts was missing. I don't know if that was the cause of the problem or a by-product of the crankshaft beating the rod to death.

    I'm not sure yet if I will go with another 2.0, a 2.5, or do a hybrid. Much of the wiring is toast from the fire. I think I will do a dry sump just for peace of mind. Thanks for all the input and discussion.

    Skip

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by lclevert View Post
    After tearing the engine down, it does not look like my problem was oil starvation related. I broke the #1 rod for some reason. One of the rod cap nuts was missing. I don't know if that was the cause of the problem or a by-product of the crankshaft beating the rod to death.

    I'm not sure yet if I will go with another 2.0, a 2.5, or do a hybrid. Much of the wiring is toast from the fire. I think I will do a dry sump just for peace of mind. Thanks for all the input and discussion.

    Skip

    Do you do a lot of heavy engine braking? Got any pictures of the carnage?

  28. #28
    The engine came from a donor car with about 90k miles. I don't know its history. I didn't have very much time on the engine. I'll get some pictures posted this afternoon.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by SixStar View Post
    No Accusump. Mostly AX for now. It's done two TT events with two more this year. All racing, all 10/10ths.

    https://youtu.be/5dWTh6CllZM

    I watched the video you posted. I'm not exactly an expert on this, but it doesn't seem to me like the car is generating anywhere near the type of g-forces that would be experienced on a race track.


    When I say that I mean no sustained high-g corners no 160 -> 50 braking zones.
    Last edited by Turboguy; 10-03-2017 at 01:03 PM.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Turboguy View Post
    I watched the video you posted. I'm not exactly an expert on this, but it doesn't seem to me like the car is generating anywhere near the type of g-forces that would be experienced on a race track.


    When I say that I mean no sustained high-g corners no 160 -> 50 braking zones.
    AX definitely does not have the sustained loads that HPDE's and road course generate, like you said. Another thing is engine braking on road courses have been said to be especially tough on the engine rods. They were not really designed to be pulled on (engine decel) vs pushed together (engine accel).

  31. #31
    Very true!! the rod we had let go on decal.....from 9k, but still it was decal that killed it.

  32. #32
    Here are some pictures of the damage: rod, rod cap, piston, and block.

    rod1.jpg

    rodcap1.jpg

    rodcap2.jpg

    block.jpg

  33. #33
    bah - that'll polish right out


    Are those stock rods and hardware ?

  34. #34
    I assume it is all stock but I am new to subaru and can't tell by looking at it.

  35. #35
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    FWIW, I know a guy in CT who has an all new parts destroker Ej 255 engine for sale. Built by Larry's Auto machine (place with a great reputation for Subaru machining and race motor builds) it is all new high-end parts with 1/2" studs, Darton sleeves and ringed for big boost and high RPM. All the good stuff for making huge power or just turn 9K comfortably at 300-400 WHP. Never run. He wants 17K for it. He's moving so he is selling off projects. Message me if you want to get in touch with him. I'd buy it and DS it if I wasn't full-up on engines to build already. I have a destroker to assemble for my R...
    As to whether an engine can live without DS: I think anecdotal evidence is worthless in this discussion. Those who have tracked a stock, used engine are likely doomed to begin with. If you build an engine properly, for racing, with a KB setup AND oil cooler and Accusump then you stand a chance. It's G's folks! At some point the oil will stay in the head and the pickup sucks air. I don't think a swivel pickup will help that very much if at all.
    If you stay lower on the power and tire size and do low G tracks then you may never have an issue. I was just at a track that has no banking and even an off-camber turn or two. Was fun sliding around but hard to generate high G's.
    Yes, it's my DAVCS EJ257 track STi but with my 285 Hoosier R7's I can generate some G's on banked turns. I have ran this engine with much the setup as mentioned above, for seven track days so far at 430 or 470 WHP and often bumping 8K limiter. I would have to go back over my data-logging to see exact G's but it's generally under 1.5. I video my gauges and never notice low pressure spikes. Front of galley pressure might average 75 @200F while back of galley to head will measure 10 to 20 less.
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  36. #36
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    The clearances in a subie engine are such that oil couldn't possibly be building up in the head unless the sweeping turn is extremely long. Oil problems are totally inside the oil pan, where the oil sloshes away from the fixed pickup. Add to that, the engine tilts opposite from design intent, causing oil to pool towards the front of the pan. Running a little extra oil would help, but not a proper fix. The oil pooling in the heads is not a factor.

  37. #37
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    Compression is not considered a destructive force, but tension is!

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by lance corsi View Post
    The clearances in a subie engine are such that oil couldn't possibly be building up in the head unless the sweeping turn is extremely long. Oil problems are totally inside the oil pan, where the oil sloshes away from the fixed pickup. Add to that, the engine tilts opposite from design intent, causing oil to pool towards the front of the pan. Running a little extra oil would help, but not a proper fix. The oil pooling in the heads is not a factor.
    I am at a loss for words! If it sloshes out of the pan where does it end up? Clearances? What clearances? Clearances related to what?
    "Scotty, give me all the TRACTION she's got!" Pictures of what I drive till 818R is finished

  39. #39
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    Okay, let's try this again. The clearances between the camshafts and their corresponding journals is less than .002". The clearance between the tappet buckets and their corresponding bores is less than .002". 2 cams x 3 journals plus 8 tappet buckets per head. There is no freaking way you could force a significant quantity of oil thru these small clearances to fill a head during even the longest carousel sweeper on any track!
    Who actually documented this phenomenon? I'm a huge doubter that this has ever been the cause of oil starvation. But what could possibly cause cavitation? The oil pickup being momentarily uncovered by oil would do it. The subie engine not only has a windage tray to prevent oil contacting the crankshaft, as well as another anti-slosh baffle lower in the oil pan. There is enough volume within the pan to allow enough oil contained therein to be thrown centrifugally against the pan side, therefore possibly uncovering the stationary oil pickup.
    Now, lastly, the dry sump systems do not scavenge the heads, just the area below the crank, where the pan used to be. There is no significant oil in the heads to reduce the overall system level, therefore no need for scavenging the heads.
    Maybe you haven't bothered to check the oil passages within a subie head, but I have. Pressurized air @ 90 psi will barely pass thru the oil clearances, no volume tho. Don't take my word for it tho, check it out yourself.

  40. #40
    Lance, why do catch cans and AOS's attached to the head vents fill rapidly and overflow onto the ground or back into the intake on Subaru track/race cars?

    Example: "I'm trying to figure out why the oil catch can would fill up extremely quick. Five minutes of driving on the track and it already has 3/4 of a quart of oil in it. Longer than that and you end up with a giant mess. The car isn't burning oil and the engine was recently rebuilt. It's running perfectly otherwise.

    Right now one line from each valve cover goes to a T and then that goes to the inlet of the can. The outlet of the can goes into the intake before the turbo.

    The breather from the block is in its original configuration. The odd thing is that the FMIC piping isn't full of oil. Its as if the valve covers are being pressurized with oil or something.

    Anyone have this happen?"
    https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2297363

    There's a ton of threads on NASIOC and IWISTI about the heads filling with oil.
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