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Thread: Donor Alternatives?

  1. #1
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    Donor Alternatives?

    Hi Guys, first time poster but long time (4 years) follower of the 818 and many of your build threads.

    I can't help but think there is a better (or just as good) donor for the 818. One questions I have been wondering about: why are we using a transmission from an AWD car that will only take advantage of the FWD output?

    Also, WRX's and STi's are quite expensive in the hipster northwest. They are definitely overvalued. It would be nice to use something else that is turbocharged but more price sensitive. Here are some of the options I am curious about:

    Mazdaspeed 6
    Mazdaspeed 3
    2005+mustang

    Some of the other alternative donors I have seen build threads on:
    Mazda 13B rotary engine
    1993 Jetta VR6

    Some of the alternative builds sound like they have gotten really expensive. So I would still want to about that. Anything too expensive would get crossed off the list for sure. But I am curious about any alternatives others have investigated.

  2. #2
    Senior Member DodgyTim's Avatar
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    I'm finishing off an R build with an EJ255 and 5 speed, but if I was to start now I'd build a non-donor, turbo rotary and STI 6 speed. There are off-the-shelf adaptor kits for the engine/gearbox and (hopefully) would eliminate the need for the expensive dry sump system the Subaru engine seems to need.

  3. #3
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    All Subaru's hold their value extremely well, it's not just a hipster/northwest thing. At least they are available there. A lot of the more southern builds have a hard time finding donors and parts because there's so little demand for AWD cars.

    A standard longitudinal FWD transmission will interfere with the suspension points on the 818 chassis, so you're pretty much limited to transmissions from Subaru, Porsche, and possibly some VW/Audi. As far as the AWD/FWD conversion, several Subarus are offered as FWD only in the Asian markets (and possibly European.) VW/Audi does the same thing with the FWD versions of its Quattro cars.

    The suspension on the other hand pretty much has to come from an Impreza. A Forester can get you close but you'll need a few extra pieces. If you are going with a different powerplant, then by all means either go donor-less or simply pick up a base model Impreza, which typically go for about 1/3 the price of a WRX.

    As far as the engine goes, without significant frame mods you're limited to those that take up the same shape as an EJ motor, which not many do (An EJ motor is only about 18" from the front pulley to the back of the flywheel.) Inline fours are too tall and long, though that's less of an issue if you're building a coupe. V8's are simply too big. A V6 would probably be an excellent choice, but nobody has done it yet. Just remember when choosing that you're going to have to wire it all up somehow. Pairing a modern CAN bus engine with the old analog subaru wiring harness pretty much requires the use of an aftermarket standalone ECU and controls system.
    Last edited by phil1734; 10-11-2017 at 07:37 AM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    Consider that the 818 was designed around a Subaru donor vehicle; not just the engine but most of the mounting points for several other components are specifically made to bolt on Subaru parts (steering rack, steering wheel, spindle brackets, gauge cluster, door brackets/latch, etc...). You'd be essentially starting from scratch by implementing parts from a different donor. The other builds you mentioned (rotary and VR6) still use Subaru parts in several other locations (outside the engine bay). The reason it gets so expensive when you go outside the box is from all of the engineering development, design and fabrication that has to be done.
    Last edited by STiPWRD; 10-11-2017 at 08:47 AM.

  5. #5
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    If you have to go away from the EJ series you'd do better starting entirely from scratch and building your own frame. A start would be to get the Midlana build book. http://midlana.com/. That will give you an idea of the costs and enormous amount of time it takes to build all the way up. And just for reference, most Midlana builders who are building track cars are going dry sump. (The street cruisers are not), just like the 818.

    Here's an example post from the Midlana forum:
    "Put an OEM drivetrain in a lightweight sports car and it will very likely have oiling issues due to the higher cornering Gs. For example, my Honda K20/K24 has a known issue where in hard left turns, oil runs to the front crank pulley and cam timing chain. The timing chain acts like a conveyor belt, lifting enough oil up out of the pan that the pump sucks air. If it happens a little, the driver feels power drop off due to the engine dropping out of VTEC (which uses oil pressure to switch cams). If it happens a lot, the engine's destroyed."

    So pretty much no matter what you do, if you're building a track car running on sticky R comp tires you're going to need a dry sump, Honda or Subaru. And if you turbocharge either of them you will still have to figure out how to cool the Intercooler in a mid-engine car reliably.
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  6. #6
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    Thanks for all the feedback! Sounds like you are likely to spend more if you step off the original design path. I guess that's not too surprising but I was hoping for an alternative.

    I didn't know about the dry sump being required so thank you for the heads up. I definitely want to build the 818 for track use so its something I'll have to plan for.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jvalgardson View Post
    Thanks for all the feedback! Sounds like you are likely to spend more if you step off the original design path. I guess that's not too surprising but I was hoping for an alternative.

    I didn't know about the dry sump being required so thank you for the heads up. I definitely want to build the 818 for track use so its something I'll have to plan for.

    A dry sump is cheaper than another engine build. That was my way of looking at it. Trust me, I know everyone has a budget and I got sold on the build your own Supercar killer for $15k marketing tactic. Some things are just best done right the first time. There is a reason OEM's have dry sumps on their high performance sports cars. Good Luck!

  8. #8
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    I pulled a really good deal on a Saab 92-x Aero, so check those out. You might get lucky, too. I also considered an insurance wrecker NA car with separate engine/trans/harness purchase. Good luck.

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