Boig Motorsports

Visit our community sponsor

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 56

Thread: Boy I just love love love this manual.

  1. #1

    Angry Boy I just love love love this manual.

    Why is it that I follow the manual on installing the grill and cooling components and I start at the beginning (page 230) and follow the directions all the way through mounting the grill assembly on the car. It's now on the car and then I come to the part for mounting the over flow canister on page 255.


    What I find is the directions that say...

    "The overflow tank can either get mounted to the radiator as shown in the diagram BEFORE THE RADIATOR INSTALLATION or directly to the firewall."

    (Emphasis is mine)


    I mean really... They could not find somewhere in those 25 pages to tell you that you might want to install the overflow at this point? Or how about some photos showing where it actually gets mounted... The diagram is almost worthless when you are looking at the bookit does not really show where it is connected.




    The fan also had me wondering... On the page about installing the fan on the radiator it says "This should be a tight fit."



    Would you consider this a tight fit?
    Tim Sapp


    Build Thread: http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/blog/

    "If Krass and Bernie can do it why can't I?"

  2. #2
    LOL, I had the exact same reaction. Exactly!

    Mine is the same loose-as-hell fit. So I added washers to take up the slack.. and then when fitting the overflow I removed washers that side (you probably see 1/4" gap, and the overflow uses 1/8").

    By the way, if you're like mine, it won't fit because the aluminum bracket needs flattening, moving the overflow away from the UCA.

    Just be grateful you had the grill!!! I have to jerry-rig my radiator because stage 1 doesn't include grill, that you need to attach radiator, that you need to start car. Don't get me started on stage 1 - it's a bit of a tease
    Aerodynamics are for those who can't build engines - Enzo Ferrari

    FFR33 coupe #997, ordered 2/20/17, delivered 4/15/17, build thread
    Planned: 350-383 SBC, TKO600, hardtop, no fenders, hood, no sides, 3 link, GT500 wheels

  3. #3
    Agreed - The manual has more than a few shortcomings.

    EG:

    Jonas
    _____________________

    Check out our build blog - https://vjjfactoryfive.wordpress.com/
    FFR Type-65 Coupe 720
    London Ontario Canada

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRacer View Post
    LOL, I had the exact same reaction. Exactly!

    Mine is the same loose-as-hell fit. So I added washers to take up the slack.. and then when fitting the overflow I removed washers that side (you probably see 1/4" gap, and the overflow uses 1/8").

    By the way, if you're like mine, it won't fit because the aluminum bracket needs flattening, moving the overflow away from the UCA.

    Just be grateful you had the grill!!! I have to jerry-rig my radiator because stage 1 doesn't include grill, that you need to attach radiator, that you need to start car. Don't get me started on stage 1 - it's a bit of a tease


    Actually I read earlier that the grill was not part of stage one so I talked to Courtnie and had her send the grill with the stage 1.
    Tim Sapp


    Build Thread: http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/blog/

    "If Krass and Bernie can do it why can't I?"

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by tdsapp View Post
    actually i read earlier that the grill was not part of stage one so i talked to courtnie and had her send the grill with the stage 1.
    cheater cheater!!
    Aerodynamics are for those who can't build engines - Enzo Ferrari

    FFR33 coupe #997, ordered 2/20/17, delivered 4/15/17, build thread
    Planned: 350-383 SBC, TKO600, hardtop, no fenders, hood, no sides, 3 link, GT500 wheels

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by SingleMaltWSKY View Post
    Agreed - The manual has more than a few shortcomings.

    EG:

    LOL. I need to print this out for when people say "ugh, it's just a kit... bolts together".
    Aerodynamics are for those who can't build engines - Enzo Ferrari

    FFR33 coupe #997, ordered 2/20/17, delivered 4/15/17, build thread
    Planned: 350-383 SBC, TKO600, hardtop, no fenders, hood, no sides, 3 link, GT500 wheels

  7. #7
    Or the Bicycle fender mounts need to go on with the spindles, but wait, separate stages, addendums, and no wavy hand caution in that paragraph!! I originally was going to put a big flat screen in my garage so I could read the manual on CD in color while working on the car. NOT! After the second or 3rd sequence bungle I canned that idea. Then I just started hacking glass and put the pile together like my Revell kits in 3rd grade. Steal the engine out of the other box and use the optional parts from another kit.
    So after you spend all that time getting the overflow mounted to the radiator only to find out it is too small for the engine you will put it back on the firewall...

    Enjoy

  8. #8
    There is a point where you stand back and look at what you did and feel really good about yourself. There are many points you stand back and look at it and say no f**king way!!!! The things I remember about mine were all the things that I had too do two or three times two or three different ways. Yea, ****, it is a kit car

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRacer View Post
    cheater cheater!!
    Yeah Yeah but I apparently did not cheat enough. It was after stage 1 was delivered that I found that neither the exhaust or the steering wheel comes with it. Hard to go-cart when you can't steer the car or hear anything from the open exhaust.


    Quote Originally Posted by erlihemi View Post
    Or the Bicycle fender mounts need to go on with the spindles, but wait, separate stages, addendums, and no wavy hand caution in that paragraph!! I originally was going to put a big flat screen in my garage so I could read the manual on CD in color while working on the car. NOT! After the second or 3rd sequence bungle I canned that idea. Then I just started hacking glass and put the pile together like my Revell kits in 3rd grade. Steal the engine out of the other box and use the optional parts from another kit.
    So after you spend all that time getting the overflow mounted to the radiator only to find out it is too small for the engine you will put it back on the firewall...

    Enjoy
    That's really the way I have been doing things as well. On this one though I did want to see what the manual said since I was also doing the AC and everything. I have heard of people having problems with getting it stacked right and wanted to see the order and what they said. The majority of the time the manual is lying on a box somewhere collecting dust.


    Quote Originally Posted by wrp View Post
    There is a point where you stand back and look at what you did and feel really good about yourself. There are many points you stand back and look at it and say no f**king way!!!! The things I remember about mine were all the things that I had too do two or three times two or three different ways. Yea, ****, it is a kit car
    Yeah I am looking forward to the day that I can stand back and look at it and feel that way. It's actually moving along very nicely though. I am running out of boxes for the stage 1 kit and will have to soon turn to the motor rebuilding.



    Quote Originally Posted by SingleMaltWSKY View Post
    Agreed - The manual has more than a few shortcomings.

    EG:


    I like this... This is also how we are expected to diagram the networks at work.
    Tim Sapp


    Build Thread: http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/blog/

    "If Krass and Bernie can do it why can't I?"

  10. #10
    Member cChrisM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Ramsey, NJ
    Posts
    73
    Blog Entries
    14
    I'm sure its says to read the manual first before starting any work? LOL!!!!
    Picked up Kit 7/20/09, Tear down stage complete, Donor 2003 Cobra 4.6L supercharged, 25k miles on engine, IRS, 6-speed. Attended Build School October 08. Mods done, frame powder coated 12/2012, First Start 7/31/13, gocart 8/2/13, Check out my blog
    http://venomxs.com/index.php?view=ca...tent&Itemid=57

  11. #11
    Senior Member Papa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Parker, CO
    Posts
    540
    Quote Originally Posted by TDSapp View Post
    I like this... This is also how we are expected to diagram the networks at work.
    Here is what I typically see from our engineering department when they haven't really figured out the details:



    I refer to the mystery cloud as PFM; Pure Magic
    There are 10 types of people in this world;
    those who understand binary and those who don't.

    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    Here is what I typically see from our engineering department when they haven't really figured out the details:



    I refer to the mystery cloud as PFM; Pure Magic

    When I am trying to explain something in laymens terms I use a diagram like this and tell them that there is where it AutoMagically starts to work.
    Tim Sapp


    Build Thread: http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/blog/

    "If Krass and Bernie can do it why can't I?"

  13. #13
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Manassas, Va.
    Posts
    2,186
    Heck, wait until you get to the doors. They are a true gem and the manual for them is too. The best part is some of the pics are of the left door and some are of the right door and no explanation at all. We had two of us looking, looking, and looking and still had the right side interior frame in the left door for 2 hours.
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  14. #14
    I've mentioned this in the Roadster forums, it could be worse. We have a K1 Attack kit here that we intended to build but there was just way too much undefined and the "manual" was one DVD with 20 some short how-to videos with no narration. The kit is made in the Czech republic and they don't speak english. The cost and pain to finish it isn't worth it.

    That's why it sits here and likely won't come down.

    2017-04-05 17.03.08.jpg

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gatineau, Quebec, canada
    Posts
    50
    Guys, if the manual is as bad as you say, why don't you all (or a key few of you) get together and show some initiative in setting up a compiled version of the best of the best required revisions for the manual and set it up in a forum for all to benefit from?? I know its easier to complain rather than put all the information and knowledge of this forum (and possibly other forums) to good use, but to complain and not do something PRODUCTIVE AND HELPFUL about it does not help you or anyone else, nor does it help get your cars done.

    As a manufacturer of commercial products myself it irks me when the only thing people do is complain instead of stepping up and getting involved to solve something that, for all intents and purpose, is an easy "fix" in this case. Be part of the solution not the dissent. You people are smart and innovative, step up and put it to some good use and HELP everyone here. I know I will need it as I build my 33 this winter, and I know you can use it for yours to help get them done quicker and cleaner. Thanks all!

  16. #16
    I completely disagree. If you are getting complaints about your product, it's YOUR responsibility to fix the issues not the customer. Getting "involved" means time, which is more valuable than money to me. The builders shouldn't have to re-write the manual or fix problems that could be addressed at the factory. If the fix is easy why don't they do it? If they made the kit and the manual correctly it would solve these issues PERMENANTLY FOR ALL BUILDERS. No more endless searching for the right thread that has the info you're looking for. (and having to go out to the garage and fix it also) Hundreds of people's headaches and wasted time (money) gone instantly. I think all of us have better things to do than "fix" what shouldn't be broken in the first place. Have you even started or received your kit or manual? Maybe wait until then to comment on them, to guys already in the middle of it.
    Last edited by carbon fiber; 11-01-2017 at 09:30 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by AJT '33 View Post
    Guys, if the manual is as bad as you say, why don't you all (or a key few of you) get together and show some initiative in setting up a compiled version of the best of the best required revisions for the manual and set it up in a forum for all to benefit from?? I know its easier to complain rather than put all the information and knowledge of this forum (and possibly other forums) to good use, but to complain and not do something PRODUCTIVE AND HELPFUL about it does not help you or anyone else, nor does it help get your cars done.

    As a manufacturer of commercial products myself it irks me when the only thing people do is complain instead of stepping up and getting involved to solve something that, for all intents and purpose, is an easy "fix" in this case. <SNIP>
    Ok two things. One, I am not the first person to say something about the manual so it is known that there are issues and they have never been fixed. I was venting because I had just spent quite a bit of time putting something together just to find that I needed to take it all apart.

    Two, there have been offers to fix the manual but they were told that it was not in the budget.


    Question for you though... Being a manufacture of commercial products, if you have people complaining about your product, which you sell, you expect the customer to fix the issue for you? You want them to fix something that they have paid for and then you profit from their free work? If it were the directions for your product and someone sent you a spot where it needed to be corrected would there be a reason that you would not fix it and would expect your customer to post all the corrections and a new set of directions on a web site?


    Tell you what, you get FFR to send me an editable version of their manual and I will open a thread for manual corrections and will edit the manual, and keep it updated, for free and return it to FFR. Being a photographer I would also be willing to take some new photos and update them as well. I would add one catch though. FFR would have to send a free PDF version to everyone who has bought an FFR Hot Rod and is still working on it.
    Tim Sapp


    Build Thread: http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/blog/

    "If Krass and Bernie can do it why can't I?"

  18. #18
    If they’d only publish it in a public wiki we’d have it fixed in a heartbeat
    Aerodynamics are for those who can't build engines - Enzo Ferrari

    FFR33 coupe #997, ordered 2/20/17, delivered 4/15/17, build thread
    Planned: 350-383 SBC, TKO600, hardtop, no fenders, hood, no sides, 3 link, GT500 wheels

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by AJT '33 View Post
    why don't you all (or a key few of you) get together and show some initiative in setting up a compiled version of the best of the best required revisions for the manual and set it up in a forum for all to benefit from??

    One additional thing. This is what we are all doing every time we post a build thread or post a message about missing manual item or incorrect photo. It would just be nice to not have to search on here every time we are about to start a new section of the car.
    Tim Sapp


    Build Thread: http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/blog/

    "If Krass and Bernie can do it why can't I?"

  20. #20
    As more than one person has said, it is easier to complain than recommend a solution. It may also not be easy to understand that the problem is probably the tools being used. Having looked at only a manual for a 818, it was easy to see that each section was like a project in assembling one system at a time. In reality this would entail much disassembly in order to do later work. In the threads for the 818 was quite a bit of recommendations of "Do this first" and "If you follow the manual, you will not be able to access it later". On the other hand, if the manual was set up like a cook book, then it would be difficult to use it for troubleshooting and maintenance. Having an electronic version allows for making changes in the manual easier, but if the tool is like a word processor, then everything needs to be sequential only.

    Now if someone would like to volunteer to write for F5 a new tool that would allow the steps to be seen both system by system or apply other sequences of assembly, then we might be able to make some improvements. Also, someone would have to talk F5 into using the tool once it is complete. Any volunteers?

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRacer View Post
    If they’d only publish it in a public wiki we’d have it fixed in a heartbeat

    Good idea... We could actually set one up ourselves. I have a web site with unlimited hosting and would only need a domain name for it.


    We would not be able to use their manual in any way though since it is Copyrighted and has a non-disclosure statement in it. I am not sure if FFR would have any heart burn about it since it would really only help them sell more Hot Rods. Plus everything is already posted on the forums it would just be better formatted and organized much better.
    Tim Sapp


    Build Thread: http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/blog/

    "If Krass and Bernie can do it why can't I?"

  22. #22
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gatineau, Quebec, canada
    Posts
    50
    Hey Everyone, love this discussion as I do believe we will get a solution out of this that will not only benefit us but possibly change the manner in which FFR addresses changes.

    To address a few items out of this thread I offer the following:

    - As an OEM it is our responsibility to issue corrections to errors or adjustments to clarify. As a manufacturer we would issue what we call a "Notification Bulletin" which is an information bulletin which informs but has no requirements, a "Service Bulletin" which is a notification that informs and provides solutions which has a required "Completion Date" of which it must be completed and last but not the least a "Safety Alert" which is a critical notification in that if not followed it could result in serious injury or death.

    - I agree with Carbon Fiber in the correction of a manual falls with FFR, my expectation would be that they would issue any one of the above bulletins to all clients affected to ensure that their clients are informed appropriately. The only way that they can do this is if we, the client, would inform them and then they assess the impact and respond accordingly. They cannot be going through these forums to find issues. So our responsibility is to inform them, their responsibility is to act on any and all info received.

    - As it pertains to my company as an OEM, bulletins, alerts or notifications, we take all input/feedback received from our clients and process it in a manner that allows us to determine which bin it would fall. The first and most effective way is to issue one of the three notifications above, then based on a set date or time of year, publish new versions of the manuals for distribution whilst notifying all affected clients. This can be done on a website or a link in an email, we do both in case our clients email has changed and they don't receive it.

    - As for editing tools, we use a software called "Flare", this is an editor specifically made for this application, not expensive but not easy to setup however once setup very easy to edit. Others do exist so its up to FFR to figure that out. I honestly believe that since most of the changes are driven by the client making changes as prescribed above should not be difficult. My industry is much bigger than this so setting this up is quite simple. You can be assured that I will be going directly to FFR with any and all suggestions of good Customer Service practices going forward.

    In summary, I believe that we should still provide input on build tricks to everyone here, however if it could make a big difference I would encourage everyone to send FFR corrections or suggestions that are comprehensive so they can do their part. I know as I move forward with my build now, my first job will be to read the manual from front to back, twice. Then revert back to the forums to see if there is anything here, then start my build and continue to revert back here. I like staying on the positive side as you can see, this has served me very well.

    Again, great input!!!!

  23. #23
    Well this is interesting. So given this is the FFR sponsored Forum and many issues commonly arise for the 818 and 33 there are a couple categories for change management to improve the written communication of How the Heck to build these things.
    1) The build school could pick up on some of this and demonstrate improved techniques. Of course it should be a 5 day school at that point. $$$
    2) FFR could endorse a "suggestions" section in the tech questions categorized by each model.
    3) The live manual has more merit as changes continue to be introduced.
    4) A real manual verification effort needs to be made in the first few Beta versions

    FFR has traditionally put the first few serial numbers in the hands of experienced builders. When I was in the Army I would take 2 "recruits" with me every time a new piece of equipment was in prototype field testing. We would take the factory draft of the manual and tear down the equipment with standard issue field tools. I would document what couldn't be done in the field or with the manuals as written. Silly process.

    For a 10-15% discount I would do similar with a GenIII type 65, 35 P.U. or whatever the next "thing" is. I am sure others would be to do so as well. I just semi retired so I gots the time now.

    Challenge setting there...

  24. #24
    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Corona del Mar, CA
    Posts
    4,494
    Blog Entries
    7
    I've got some ideas how I could use the forum to help maintain a "build manual" and I'll run them by Dave Smith tomorrow.


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
    Delivered 4/23/06. "Finished" 4/2012 (still not done!)


  25. #25


    Not a waxer
    Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Bloomington, Indiana
    Posts
    3,008
    The pitfalls I see for FFR in endorsing a "wiki" type format is the potential for inaccurate information to be added and then construed as being correct since the manufacturer is effectively putting their stamp of approval on it. Quite different than info posted by builders and users in these open forums.

    JMHO of course...

    Jeff

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    The pitfalls I see for FFR in endorsing a "wiki" type format is the potential for inaccurate information to be added and then construed as being correct since the manufacturer is effectively putting their stamp of approval on it. Quite different than info posted by builders and users in these open forums.

    JMHO of course...

    Jeff
    Well that would be true except that we all know there is already alot of inaccurate info in the manual today I haven't even got the body yet, and I've lost count of the number of photos/instructions that are plain wrong. Parts that completely changed design over the years, or shown mounted wrongly, or assembled out of order, or not shown at all. All very easy for us to fix, given that ability. Hell, on a wiki they can still review before publishing changes if they wish.
    Aerodynamics are for those who can't build engines - Enzo Ferrari

    FFR33 coupe #997, ordered 2/20/17, delivered 4/15/17, build thread
    Planned: 350-383 SBC, TKO600, hardtop, no fenders, hood, no sides, 3 link, GT500 wheels

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by AJT '33 View Post

    - I agree with Carbon Fiber in the correction of a manual falls with FFR, my expectation would be that they would issue any one of the above bulletins to all clients affected to ensure that their clients are informed appropriately. The only way that they can do this is if we, the client, would inform them and then they assess the impact and respond accordingly. They cannot be going through these forums to find issues. So our responsibility is to inform them, their responsibility is to act on any and all info received.


    In summary, I believe that we should still provide input on build tricks to everyone here, however if it could make a big difference I would encourage everyone to send FFR corrections or suggestions that are comprehensive so they can do their part.
    That's the problem, lack of caring on FFR's part. I've contacted FFR to discuss the problems with the GTM, (trust me I know them at this point) and got the standard FFR brush off everyone else gets. Whether you need info/help or are willing to provide input/help, they don't seem to care much. It's no new news that their customer service is lacking. Search a few threads, there are regular complaints about it. I've never talked to Dave Smith directly, but if I could I'd try to emphasize the amount of business he's losing because of issues with the kits and the manuals being the way they are. The changes that need to be made would greatly benefit his business. I always talked up FFR before I got my GTM kit, not so much after. Symmetry problems on a post 1st generation kit are ridiculous. I'm a big fan of symmetry and customer service. As far as FFR being "informed by the builders" as to what's wrong physically with the kits, they already know. They build the kits. They've assembled multiple versions in house themselves, and are aware of the problems. I'm sending them a Christmas present this year.stanley_powerlock_25-foot_25_foot_tape_measure_33-425.jpg
    Last edited by carbon fiber; 11-02-2017 at 07:21 AM.

  28. #28
    I'd also like to offer here on this forum any help I can to make FFR better. If Dave Smith is interested, I'd be glad to talk to him regarding the GTM's issues in hopes of improvement. I'd rather brag than complain about FFR but it's not up to me...

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    1,257
    Quote Originally Posted by carbon fiber View Post
    That's the problem, lack of caring on FFR's part. I've contacted FFR to discuss the problems with the GTM, (trust me I know them at this point) and got the standard FFR brush off everyone else gets. Whether you need info/help or are willing to provide input/help, they don't seem to care much. It's no new news that their customer service is lacking. Search a few threads, there are regular complaints about it. I've never talked to Dave Smith directly, but if I could I'd try to emphasize the amount of business he's losing because of issues with the kits and the manuals being the way they are. The changes that need to be made would greatly benefit his business. I always talked up FFR before I got my GTM kit, not so much after. Symmetry problems on a post 1st generation kit are ridiculous. I'm a big fan of symmetry and customer service. As far as FFR being "informed by the builders" as to what's wrong physically with the kits, they already know. They build the kits. They've assembled multiple versions in house themselves, and are aware of the problems. I'm sending them a Christmas present this year.stanley_powerlock_25-foot_25_foot_tape_measure_33-425.jpg
    +1 Yeppers! Don't even get me started on the new 35 pickup....ffr couldn't even get the door handles right! On second thought maybe, just maybe I will get started on the 35 pickup on how much FFR missed the mark! but in another thread of it's own.........maybe

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Vman7 View Post
    +1 Yeppers! Don't even get me started on the new 35 pickup....ffr couldn't even get the door handles right! On second thought maybe, just maybe I will get started on the 35 pickup on how much FFR missed the mark! but in another thread of it's own.........maybe
    Understand Vman that I'm complaining for the right reasons. I'd like to see them improve, not just bash them. (for using your ideas, that you willingly posted up) I spent close to 25k with options, and I have a right to complain just like all the others here who put down their hard earned cash. Not trying to beat up on you here, just saying.

  31. #31
    EFI Rules and Carbs Drool Arrowhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Stillwater, NY
    Posts
    460
    Threads like this just make me smile. I think FFR has kind of painted themselves into a corner. They have been raising the bar every year and keep improving, so people's expectations keep getting higher and higher. Are the manuals or kits perfect? Of course not and there's always room for improvements. But go buy a hot rod "kit" from ANY other manufacture and check out their assembly manual. Oh wait, there isn't one. Or it's three or four pieces of paper stapled together with an exploded diagram of the chassis. Yea, I'm sure the manual needs a lot of work. Funny thing is, it's probably 50% thicker today than mine from 2009. Go way back on the forums and read some of the things people were complaining about, a lot of those issues have been taken care of - and yes may not show up in the manual yet. Would you prefer they didn't improve the kits so the manual was correct? Most people read through the manual before starting their build - that's why you can buy the manual upfront and then get credited the cost if you buy a kit. I think that might help alleviate some of these coordination issues between the manual and the actual build.
    Arrowhead's '33 Hot Rod Build Site:
    http://sites.google.com/site/arrowheadshotrodsite/Home

  32. #32
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    1,257
    Quote Originally Posted by carbon fiber View Post
    Understand Vman that I'm complaining for the right reasons. I'd like to see them improve, not just bash them. (for using your ideas, that you willingly posted up) I spent close to 25k with options, and I have a right to complain just like all the others here who put down their hard earned cash. Not trying to beat up on you here, just saying.
    Whatever....
    Last edited by Vman7; 11-03-2017 at 08:49 AM.

  33. #33
    I purchased my kit knowing full well that all is not going to be perfectly as the manual states. How many people are going to plunk down 20K without a little research? The manual is more of a guide and as stated before, is remarkably complete. It attempts to guide a first time builder to a complete car. I think that if you don't enjoy the process you should have bought a completed car to begin with. I cannot leave much just as the manual states, I modify most everything. I almost consider it a disease. That being said if you try to follow the manual and use all of the supplied parts it can be done by an inexperienced builder in a relatively short time. You just must go in knowing that there will be some manual shortfalls, requiring a few re-do's. Try not to get bent about it and refer to these forums often for advice. That is why I am here. The forums are worth equally as much as the manual in my opinion. See, I just wasted 10 minutes of build time hunting and pecking away at these keys.

  34. #34
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Lake Orion, Michigan
    Posts
    3,830
    This isn't an easy subject. In my former life when I actually had to work for a living () one of the things my team was responsible for was documentation (e.g. user manuals) for our very extensive and admittedly complicated IT applications. For anyone who hasn't done this type of thing before, it's a ton of work, constantly a struggle to keep them up to date, the right versions in the hands of the users, and as many will admit, not widely used. Always an easy excuse when something went wrong, but often not the "go-to" for training or problem solving. It was always a struggle, and we devoted a ton of resources to it.

    What does that have to do with this? Speaking as someone who worked in large corporations my whole career, I'm amazed at what that relatively small team is able to accomplish. I'm not sure how many people realize just how small Factory Five is. The resources required to keep all of their documentation would be significant. This is especially challenging since each of their models have a wide variety of possible options, part choices, build configurations, etc. That's one of the things that's really attractive about their offerings. But also their worst nightmare when it comes to documentation. It would be very challenging to have every possibility documented. At least not without taking resources away from other things we probably would prefer they work on. Plus they are constantly making changes and improvements. Then there's the question of how widely it would be used even if available. How many times do we see questions posted on the forums that are 100% explained and pictured in the instructions?

    That's not to say there's any excuse for bad/wrong pictures, outright errors, omissions, etc. I shake my head too sometimes at what I see in the manuals. Absolutely there's room for improvement. Just in my time between my Mk3 and Mk4 Roadster builds, I've seen significant improvement. So I know they're trying. But still room for lots more. If there's anything we can do as a community to help, I'd be all for it. I tend to agree with a couple of posters though. If buyers are looking for an "insert tab A into slot B" kind of manual that covers every possibility, this maybe isn't the right choice. And I'm not sure there is one.
    Last edited by edwardb; 11-02-2017 at 11:15 AM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
    Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. #7750 Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. 03 of 20. 2015 crate Coyote, 2015 IRS. Legal 04/18/2017. #8674 Build Thread
    Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Delivered 12/2/2017. #59 Coupe Build Thread

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    The pitfalls I see for FFR in endorsing a "wiki" type format is the potential for inaccurate information to be added and then construed as being correct since the manufacturer is effectively putting their stamp of approval on it. Quite different than info posted by builders and users in these open forums.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRacer View Post
    Hell, on a wiki they can still review before publishing changes if they wish.
    I was going to say that with a Wiki not only can you have some that can approve the change, we could limit who was allowed to add or update the Wiki as well. If you are running your own Wiki you don't have to leave it open to any one to change.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vman7 View Post
    +1 Yeppers! Don't even get me started on the new 35 pickup....ffr couldn't even get the door handles right! On second thought maybe, just maybe I will get started on the 35 pickup on how much FFR missed the mark! but in another thread of it's own.........maybe
    Quote Originally Posted by carbon fiber View Post
    I'd also like to offer here on this forum any help I can to make FFR better. If Dave Smith is interested, I'd be glad to talk to him regarding the GTM's issues in hopes of improvement. I'd rather brag than complain about FFR but it's not up to me...
    So, here I am talking about the manual only as it should be easier to manage than issues with the car\body\frame. It should be a rather easy fix for a manual vs having to rebuild body molds because the body does not have symmetry from side to side. This is something that FFR could fix much easier.



    Quote Originally Posted by Arrowhead View Post
    Threads like this just make me smile. I think FFR has kind of painted themselves into a corner. They have been raising the bar every year and keep improving, so people's expectations keep getting higher and higher. Are the manuals or kits perfect? Of course not and there's always room for improvements. But go buy a hot rod "kit" from ANY other manufacture and check out their assembly manual. Oh wait, there isn't one. Or it's three or four pieces of paper stapled together with an exploded diagram of the chassis. Yea, I'm sure the manual needs a lot of work. Funny thing is, it's probably 50% thicker today than mine from 2009. Go way back on the forums and read some of the things people were complaining about, a lot of those issues have been taken care of - and yes may not show up in the manual yet. Would you prefer they didn't improve the kits so the manual was correct? Most people read through the manual before starting their build - that's why you can buy the manual upfront and then get credited the cost if you buy a kit. I think that might help alleviate some of these coordination issues between the manual and the actual build.
    Arrowhead you are wise beyond your years and I thank you for your input. Your build thread has saved me a ton of time and money and even gave me a few worries. ( For a while I thought the motor in my Vette had been replaced and I thought I was going to have to find another motor.)

    I am glad to hear that the manual has changed quite a bit since you received your car. I did buy the PDF version of the manual and read through it before ordering the car. (I did not get it credited on my order but it's only $10 so I am not worried about that.) I am glad to have the manual but there are still issues with it. And as you say some kit makers just have an exploded diagram in it. I wish FFR had more diagrams in their manual as I see things better that way than photos most of the time. But they have to be correct. For instance on page 25 of the manual there is an exploded view of lower control arm. I used this diagram to build mine as it made more since to me than the text and photos. Problem is that the diagram does not have any of the four required jam nuts. When following the written directions on this they never reference putting the jam nut on the clevis or the linkage adjuster and they are there in the photos. When I built my lower control arms I put them all together as a test fit and just had the manual open to the first diagram. Got them all together and took a look at the remaining parts and realized that none of the jam nuts were there. Put them on and everything is good. But according to the manuals diagrams, the passenger side control arms has jam nuts but the drivers side does not.


    As for not improving the kits so they would match the manual? No, I would rather both the kit and the manual be corrected. How hard would it be to produce a technical bulletin? Something that could be added to the manual at the back in an appendix and even emailed out the the current owners of the cars.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rickyd31 View Post
    I purchased my kit knowing full well that all is not going to be perfectly as the manual states. How many people are going to plunk down 20K without a little research? The manual is more of a guide and as stated before, is remarkably complete. It attempts to guide a first time builder to a complete car. I think that if you don't enjoy the process you should have bought a completed car to begin with. I cannot leave much just as the manual states, I modify most everything. I almost consider it a disease. That being said if you try to follow the manual and use all of the supplied parts it can be done by an inexperienced builder in a relatively short time. You just must go in knowing that there will be some manual shortfalls, requiring a few re-do's. Try not to get bent about it and refer to these forums often for advice. That is why I am here. The forums are worth equally as much as the manual in my opinion. See, I just wasted 10 minutes of build time hunting and pecking away at these keys.
    Ricky D,

    I also purchased my kit knowing there would be some issues. I also removed several things from my order knowing I was going to upgrade them. For instance the rear end control arms, wire harness, and the Koni shocks. I knew going in that there were several things that were not going to match the manual at all. But while I have not built a car from the ground up or done a frame off resto, I have pulled, dropped and built several engines, replaced body panels, and worked on wiring. So I knew it was going to be quite a bit of work, and I am enjoying the hell out of it.


    The manual is a great guide and really it sits on a box somewhere in the garage and is referenced every once in a while. But there are still places that are frustrating none the less and would drive a first time builder up a wall. What really started this rant for me was when I built the grill stack. I got all the way though it to basically find the next step was "If you want to put the overflow onto the stack please undo the last ten steps we had you do, put on the over flow and redo the ten steps." (Which includes mounting the grill stack to the car I might add.) Why not simply put the line "If you want to install the overflow on the grill stack then do it here." at the correct location.

    But I, like you, think that the forum is worth more than the manuals. I have used the forum and the build threads more than I have used the manual. It is just frustrating when you run across something that could be fixed easily but it appears to be ignored.




    In closing it appears that David Hodgkins, a site administrator, has an idea for being able to use "the forum to help maintain a "build manual". " Lets hope that David likes the idea and something gets implemented that will allow everyone to assist in keeping the manual updated as a living document.
    Last edited by TDSapp; 11-02-2017 at 11:04 AM.
    Tim Sapp


    Build Thread: http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/blog/

    "If Krass and Bernie can do it why can't I?"

  36. #36
    EFI Rules and Carbs Drool Arrowhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Stillwater, NY
    Posts
    460
    Quote Originally Posted by TDSapp View Post
    As for not improving the kits so they would match the manual? No, I would rather both the kit and the manual be corrected. How hard would it be to produce a technical bulletin? Something that could be added to the manual at the back in an appendix and even emailed out the the current owners of the cars.
    Tim,

    Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad my build thread was helpful. Out of curiosity, I just went though my email archive and found seven build manual updates I received from 2014-2017. So it is something they try to address.
    Arrowhead's '33 Hot Rod Build Site:
    http://sites.google.com/site/arrowheadshotrodsite/Home

  37. #37
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gatineau, Quebec, canada
    Posts
    50
    Many bright minds can accomplish more than one!!! Again, love this dialogue, its great!

    PS. I must admit that there are a few front facing people at FFR that could use an attitude adjustment or a swift kick in the butt. I do believe part, if not the bulk, of this problem lies there. The hardest thing that ANY company has to do is let go some of what they feel are key people (or re-assign them for the better of them and the company), which are really not that key, just have knowledge that is not shared well. Some may know who I may be referring to however I have had this scenario a couple times in my company and when you are small its hard however when you grow and get a few "really smart and efficient new people" you realize very quickly that a few key personnel moves can make an enormous difference. We did that here and took our company from a 30 employee company to over 150 in 5 short years and the result was our gross sales grew 5 fold, and those smart people with initiative, helped grow the bottom line.

    It looks and feels to me that Dave is in the same situation now, the indicators of those cracks which need to be fixed, success can do this however I do believe Dave is a smart person and he can hopefully make those very hard key moves to reset FFR. Just my thoughts being fresh to building my 33 and this forum looking at this with a fresh set of eyes, I hope...

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by TDSapp View Post





    So, here I am talking about the manual only as it should be easier to manage than issues with the car\body\frame. It should be a rather easy fix for a manual vs having to rebuild body molds because the body does not have symmetry from side to side. This is something that FFR could fix much easier.


    As for not improving the kits so they would match the manual? No, I would rather both the kit and the manual be corrected.
    This is my point exactly. You have to do a search to find out what's wrong and how to fix it. FFR understandably doesn't want to point these things out in the first place. What company wants to say "hey we screwed up the body so you'll have to fix it by doing these 20 steps" in print?" Nobody. To talk about the fixes requires talking about the problems. Updating the manual for fixes means pointing out problems. A 600 hour build time for a supercar sounds better than "you'll need to spend 600 just on the doors and hatch."

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrowhead View Post
    Tim,

    Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad my build thread was helpful. Out of curiosity, I just went though my email archive and found seven build manual updates I received from 2014-2017. So it is something they try to address.

    Seven updates in four years is great... I was not expecting to hear of that many I was thinking that once a year would keep everything up-to date but they have released almost two a year.


    Tim
    Tim Sapp


    Build Thread: http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/blog/

    "If Krass and Bernie can do it why can't I?"

  40. #40
    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Corona del Mar, CA
    Posts
    4,494
    Blog Entries
    7
    I'd like to offer an idea of a Community based Build Instructions forum for the Hotrod.

    My idea is to have thread that have, say, each 10 pages as it's topic (or a logical grouping based on the steps).

    Each FIRST POST is the OFFICIAL set of steps included in those pages, with either the original content or UPDATED content. The posts below the first post are for user input and corrections.

    I (and the mods, plus maybe 1 or two build experts per vehicle) would control the thread creation in this forum. An Example thread list(with made-up pg #'s, it's just an example):

    Prereq 1: Tools
    Prereq 2: Body Buck
    STEP 1: Inventory pgs 3-4
    STEP 2: Front Suspension pgs 5-8
    STEP 3: Rear suspension pgs 15-18
    STEP 4: Driver's pedals pgs 9-15 <-- corrected build sequence order example

    That way the first post can be maintained and updated as needed, and the posts below can be a way for the community to suggest changes, add relevant pics, etc. Good suggestions from posts below could be weaved into the "official" first post.

    Maybe - as an additional idea - also we could limit viewing and participation to self-declared Hotrod Owners? I could create a Hotrod user category that allows access to the forum? Frankly, I'd prefer owners only having input.

    Thoughts?


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
    Delivered 4/23/06. "Finished" 4/2012 (still not done!)


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Replica Promotions

Visit our community sponsor