818 Project Updates From Dave

[thebeerbaron]

That looks to be full scale, which would make it Jim's in-house design. IIRC, the plan is to shrink it down to 1/4 scale and present it next to the other three.

All of the body designs at this point are for the initial vehicle, the roadster.

[kitcarj]

I am a little sad if that is the 4th design. I was hoping for something more outrageous. I don't know how Rodney's design will turn out but if that is the 4th design (was there a 5th?) then all but Rodney's will be fairly similar. They all fall Visually in between a Boxster or 2nd gen Miata and the Lotus Elise. I was hoping most, if not all of the cars, would be at least as exciting as the Elise visually.

They will all make beautiful cars and may be track killers or have great economy. But I can't see them being posters on the walls of boys everywhere like the Lamborghini Countach, 959, Vector or Ferrari Testarossa were when I was younger. At least not based on there exotic looks. I know it is a little early to jump to judgement but just my $.02.

If I had an 818 I would prefer it to be confused with a Ferrari then a Miata or Boxster.

[shinn497]

My thoughts exactly. I'm all for exotic and exciting. Not something that could be confused for mazda.

[Flamshackle]

My thoughts exactly. I'm all for exotic and exciting. Not something that could be confused for mazda.

for under 20K?

I think you forget the design brief and budget they are working to.

Believe me these will look incredible once finished. Its easy to judge these in the early stages and actually one reason im not all for these leaked images.

Be patient people and we will see 4 stunning cars I rekon

[D2W]

I'm disappointed if that's Jim's design, too bland. Its odd that the design that Jim picked in the contest was one of the wildest ones, and the one he designs is boring. I think Xabier's is too mild and I like it more than this one. I hope Dave is right and the final design knocks my socks off, I can buy a miata for a lot cheaper.

Edit: After going back and looking again that design takes a lot of lines from Xabier's design and tones is down. The front is very similiar, the slope over the front wheel down the door and over the rear wheel is similiar, just not as drastic. The rear scoop even has the same tilt. I also notice some GTM cues.

[PhyrraM]

That one does look full scale. I'd be guessing Jim's design also.

Notice the factory lights (Toyota Camry?) and an OEM windshield from something (Miata?).....

The roll bar looks out of place, but other than that it look workable.

[shinn497]

The question then is are more unique bodies costlier to produce? I have posed this question earlier. I actually feel like the 818 can accomplish the same things as a more exotic car that is more expensive. Ffr's race chasis building experience give me confidence that the performance will be there. It will have the exclusivity. All it needs are looks.

Call me suoetficial, but in my neck of the woods cars are a huge status symbol. That is why I want something with unique styling. The design in grassroots looks like a s2k witn a kit. I need something that doesnt try to be anything else and is very unique. Think K-1 attack or 2015 elise.

[D2W]

ok you're suoetficial

[Niburu]

My thoughts exactly. I'm all for exotic and exciting. Not something that could be confused for mazda.

For the vast majority of the non-car people out there anything that small will immediatly get confused for a Miata.
I've overheard Elises and Boxsters both being called Miatas, of course I've also heard RX-7's being called Porsches.
And what praytell is exactly wrong with Mazda?

[kach22i]

I've overheard Elises and Boxsters both being called Miatas, of course I've also heard RX-7's being called Porsches.

Don't you guys call any sweetened carbonated beverage a "Coke"?

Just saying, it must be a cultural thing.

Funny stuff, I swear several Boxster owners I've been near on the streets had no clues as to what make, model or year my 1977 911s targa is. I get this; what is that? look from them.

Edit: Now that I look at it more closely, it's probably the roadster.

Looks like a Miata with a modest kit on it. A larger rear intake rake vent on the side, and lowering the nose will make this look more like a mid-engined car.

EDIT: Did a quick mark-up, came out a little Spyker-ish in the nose, some Elise or Boxster-ish headlights, and a Audi TT like tail. Moved it away from the Miata look, not that it was bad, just fooling around - can't help myself.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...rial%20Design/

[Niburu]

Don't you guys call any sweetened carbonated beverage a "Coke"?

Just saying, it must be a cultural thing..

first off I'm from NY - originally
secondly that's a deep south thing, not up here in the Mid-Atlantic region
thirdly it would be prefferable to calling a soda something stupid like "pop"

Funny stuff, I swear several Boxster owners I've been near on the streets had no clues as to what make, model or year my 1977 911s targa is. I get this; what is that? look from them..

I'm pretty sure many Boxster owners don't even know what the name of the car is derived from.
Have you looked one of them oper, you can't even get to the engine unless you put it up on a lift.

[kach22i]

thirdly it would be prefferable to calling a soda something stupid like "pop"

Well I call it "pop" as in Soda Pop, definitely a cultural thing.

[ScottKoschwitz]

My thoughts exactly. I'm all for exotic and exciting. Not something that could be confused for mazda.

I don't know. I think as long as the car has good lines, you can dress it up to be as exotic and exciting looking as you want. Body color, vinyl, wheel style, wheel size, wheel color, spoilers, wings, and exhaust systems can drastically change the look of a car.

Me, I tend to like cars that look sleek as opposed to brash. My friend has an Elise in Krypton Green and loves the color. My choice would have been more subtle, like Nightfall Blue Metallic or Bourdeaux Red. By the way, he says the Elise gets enough attention to make you uncomfortable at times. I don't think that comes down to the color only. The color gets their attention; the good lines, uniqueness, and what-is-that? factor get them excited. The same will happen with the 818 - provided it has good lines.

[mekeys]

I call it Sprite because thats the only one I ever drink..

[Silvertop]

That looks to be full scale, which would make it Jim's in-house design. IIRC, the plan is to shrink it down to 1/4 scale and present it next to the other three.

All of the body designs at this point are for the initial vehicle, the roadster.

It DOES look to be full scale, so your assumption is probably correct.

However, I got the distinct impression from Dave's earlier posts that the four designs being modeled are NOT necessarily all meant to be the roadster possibilities . For example, I thought the 1st place car was being prepared as a coupe for potential use as the MPG model. I've been guessing that Xabier's will be presented as a Targa-Top (and thus may not necessarily be the first produced), and that the Olmos 2nd place car might be being prepared as an option for the Roadster (though it also has Targa-coupe possibilities), with the other Roadster possibility being the in-house design.

Of course, the likelihood is that FFR doesn't really know the answer to that themselves yet, and any one of them could wind up being the first-out roadster. But I kind of think that they ultimately hope to use all four designs, or at least three of the four for different applications.

[EmergencyDeep]

ScottKoschwitz - I'm with you. Some of the styling comments are frustrating to read. Almost like, "Oh, its white? I was hoping it would come in colors.." It is a kit. If you want a wing - make one and add it. Scoop? Make one and add it. Check out the GTM forums and you will see any number of interesting styling touches added to a great basic body shape. Proportions are really really important and really hard to change. Headlights, by comparison, are really easy.

On the topic of 818 not being called a Miata, whenever I drove my father's 1991 Lotus Elan, I often ended up in this conversation:
Guy: "What kind of Ferrari is that?" (it was a red car)
Me: "Actually, it's a Lotus."
Guy:"Who makes that?"

I guess what I'm saying is that if someone can't tell a Miata from an 818, I really don't care what they think about cars.

[BipDBo]

I think that the full sized model scanned from the Grassroots magazine is simply Xabier's car with Camry headlights and a much needed aerodynamic improvement to the front.

[thebeerbaron]

My issue with styling isn't wings and scoops. It's a question of groundbreaking styling vs bland "camry" styling. I'll withhold judgement until I see more pictures of all four entries, but I have the sinking feeling I will be disappointed. RISD did a great job and Xabier has an elegant design. I simply think it lacks a unique design voice that should be present in such a killer vehicle.

[Dave Smith]

This GRM photo was mistakenly released and it is of an early concept (many months ago). It was designed using ques from Xabiers front end, and IS a full size mock-up of the core shape but all this conversation has me DYING to show you the different shapes as they are quite different than what is shown in the GRM release.

[Oppenheimer]

Am I alone in seeing lots of MR2 Spyder in that Grassroots spyshot?

PS - I call it Rum and Coke.

[kach22i]

After that last comment, had to see them side by side. Looking more mid-engined like an MR-2 would be a good thing in my opinion.

http://students.ou.edu/Z/Phillip.F.Zhang-1/mr2.html

[Mad Dog]

Dave was horrified that people were comparing the concept 4 car to an MR-2. The photo in GRM was of the substrate shape and has evolved tremendously (very different and longer nose with rear similar to these previous photos) and is much more cutting edge/radical. Here are some spyshots to help people know that we would never make an MR-2 (Dave's words). These pictures were taken during surface scanning and the shape will evolve even further before solid modeling is shown as a complete car to you guys.

[Oppenheimer]

Well if I'd known that insulting the design by comparing to something plebian would result in more cool spyshots, I would have done that sooner!

This looks really cool.

[thebeerbaron]

Great update!

Still waiting to see all four in detail (possibly in person).

If I say it looks too much like a Yugo, will Dave release more photos in an apoplectic fit?

[drewmob]

Thank you for the much-needed update.

[sid]

Say it looks like a GEO Metro convertable and you'll probably get a completed car in your driveway.

[GUNS]

Wow, I can't wait for this to be released!

[PhyrraM]

I looks like a Geo Metro Convertable.

[Dave Smith]

I have 20 PM's that I havent had time to get to! BUT I just couldnt take the criticism and the guys here wanted to wait until the 4 unveil and gloat and say "told you so" but I guess I'm a fragile guy... MR2! Seriously, thanks for the great comments all thru this process which continues with such professionalism and careful consideration. Jim and Jesper have been outstanding and patient. This 818 project is very exciting to me as I am trying to ensure, as I said previously, that our "reach exceeds our grasp". There is so much more to show! Dave

[GUNS]

Dave,

Any chance that we can get a sneak peak at the front end, just to make sure that it doesn't look like a MR-2?

[ScottKoschwitz]

Well, that "early concept" has good lines. I can see in the later pictures, the lines are a little more taut, which is nice. I definitely think this front end intake is better than Xabier's original design.

Assuming this concept is still being developed: maybe use a NACA duct for the intake on the rear quarter? If may function better as a duct considering its alignment, and would look kind of racy.

I'm really impressed with the technology used to develop these models.

[crobin4]

Dave,

Any chance that we can get a sneak peak at the front end, just to make sure that it doesn't look like a MR-2?

Yes Dave, I think Guns is right. We shouldn't take any chances, now.

[D2W]

Those spyshots look a lot better than the GRM released photo. I'm curious to see how the rear headrest fairing look/work with the rollbar. They appear much lower than the rollbar.

[Flamshackle]

oh wow!!! i am currently geekin out about the potential of all these designs now! thanks to all involved for your passion to make such AWESOME looking cars!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! I CANT WAIT!!!

[shinn497]

I am glad dave pays such close attention.

[kach22i]

plebian

I had to look that one up, Google corrected the spelling as plebeian, still I learned something.

I thought it looked like a Miata not an MR2 (thought I should clarify), the extra photos have convinced me this was a premature observation. The hind quarters look rather muscular so far, just not overtly so.

I like the MR-2, it's the car Porsche should have been building as the new 914 (the Boxster is no "entry car"). The 3rd gen MR-2 takes very well to after market cosmetic make over kits, as the starting point it leaves something to be desired.

I don't know how the design team is going to resolve the rear transaxle projecting out the tail end. Looks like a modest rear overhang from the angles shown. Gives me even more to look forward to.

[mekeys]

I have to see the whole thing before I make any comments.I tend to agree with kitcarj tho (comment # 402 above)..

[bbjones121]

Dave was horrified that people were comparing the concept 4 car to an MR-2. The photo in GRM was of the substrate shape and has evolved tremendously (very different and longer nose with rear similar to these previous photos) and is much more cutting edge/radical. Here are some spyshots to help people know that we would never make an MR-2 (Dave's words). These pictures were taken during surface scanning and the shape will evolve even further before solid modeling is shown as a complete car to you guys.

I hope those side vents cut in more. It seems like all serious exotic designs have deep vents, not the superficial, fake looking vents of mass produced sports cars. I guess it is probably difficult to manufacture that into the body. Maybe that is why you don’t see it on most generic sports cars on the road, just the really expensive ones.

Besides that, I think the spy shots look great! Having two options for air intake or intercooler vents on both sides would be awesome. Maybe the upper vent could be used to cool the engine bay. I am getting pretty excited.

[PhyrraM]

I hope those side vents cut in more. It seems like all serious exotic designs have deep vents, not the superficial, fake looking vents of mass produced sports cars. I guess it is probably difficult to manufacture that into the body. Maybe that is why you don’t see it on most generic sports cars on the road, just the really expensive ones.

The cars you are thinking of likely have rear mounted radiators that need large amounts of air at full load.

The only air *NEEDED* in the rear of the 818 is engine intake (relatively small opening) and air to the intercooler. The radiator seems pretty firmly in the front at this point.

[Niburu]

The cars you are thinking of likely have rear mounted radiators that need large amounts of air at full load.

The only air *NEEDED* in the rear of the 818 is engine intake (relatively small opening) and air to the intercooler. The radiator seems pretty firmly in the front at this point.

Do you think the oil cooler will be moved up there as well?