818 Project Updates From Dave

[Movieman]

The cool thing about Solidworks is that you can do flow analysis/wind tunnel simulation and a host of other things (we've done rigidity chassis stuff already). Confirming the data in the real world is probably best done when the car is full size and this is SUPER important if MPG design is the one up (the track car also).

Jim is going to be REALLY busy for the next three weeks with a Spec race at Mid-Ohio next weekend and another race event at VIR the following weekend. The model-making is going full speed ahead, so we'll report on that first. In the meantime I'll be struggling to get the data/updates to our website as well as the gallery of winners maybe next week (but Mad Dog, our web guru is out til thursday).


My personal favorite design, but keep in mind that this is a collaborative process, when I want the answer, I'll give it to you... kidding. In all seriousness, the 818 process has been amazingly collaborative in the right places and very directive in others where merited. I believe that the success of the car will be that synthesis of our 15+ years of chassis-building/performance skills and the group collaboration of talented community individuals, strong partner companies, and the honest feedback of the FFR race and car-building community (NOT the general public). You guys here are the community of enthusiasts along with the group at GRM and other more dedicated user forums and groups. The export requirements will require those community assets as well and we've been working on that line in anticipation.

Looking at that pic the expression that comes to mind is "Slicker than puppy doo"

[Dave Smith]

The track version should not be that diff in target price as it would likely involve a couple thousand dollars of upgraded parts (fuel cell being a big one but not 100 percent needed). Shocks and brakes are virtually plug-ins and ALL the work on the chassis is being done to make sure the transition to track is easy and without additional chassis changes. A track-capable chassis is quite a bit of thinking and I am always shocked at what people consider taking to a track.

As far as the go-karting is concerned, Jim and the guys are really booked mercilessly for the next month, but while I didnt mention that as a "milestone", I cant imagine not doing some quick videos (you know I enjoy a good box of rubber covered donuts in the morning!).

The conversation on the gel coating is a really good one. We can do everything possible to keep the chassis kit price down, but the cost to complete the car is every bit as important... that's why running gear and paint are so huge. Making the gel-coat work means smaller panels, which means perfect molds and tolerances, mix in the design requirements of looks, aero, function and body mounting and it is a real tough puzzle. If you just try to slam all those things together with a group of people who don't understand the full implications of each, you'll miss the target by a mile... that's why Jim is the leader of the project, with good council and support, but a clear vision of the project goals and a really good understanding of all the variables. These questions on pricing, fuel tank location (which looks great by the way and likely NOT under the seat ensuring wookie fitment), are great. Still, there is a ton of work to do each day at FFR and our team is small and we can realistically only work 18-19 hours a day...

[NicksPapaw]

Dave,
Have you thought about farming out the gel coated panels to a boat manufacturer? We have a bunch of boat factories here that do fantastic work with fiberglass. Might be able to save yourself some money doing it that way. Don't really know, but just throwing out that thought for you. Plus, it could cut my shipping costs down a bunch. lol Also, if there is a way to put a top on the car in post 42, you will have reached the pinacle in my book. What a sexy, beautiful, wicked look!

[blueafro]

Lastly I'm guessing the coupe will also be the most civilized with complete enclosure and possibly HVAC. Just curious what you are envisioning.

I am very curious if optional A/C is going to make it into the design. No A/C would greatly limit the months per year the car would see on the road in much of the US Southwest and Southeast (and likely in many international markets also).

[crackedcornish]

The track version should not be that diff in target price as it would likely involve a couple thousand dollars of upgraded parts (fuel cell being a big one but not 100 percent needed). Shocks and brakes are virtually plug-ins and ALL the work on the chassis is being done to make sure the transition to track is easy and without additional chassis changes. A track-capable chassis is quite a bit of thinking and I am always shocked at what people consider taking to a track.

As far as the go-karting is concerned, Jim and the guys are really booked mercilessly for the next month, but while I didnt mention that as a "milestone", I cant imagine not doing some quick videos (you know I enjoy a good box of rubber covered donuts in the morning!).

The conversation on the gel coating is a really good one. We can do everything possible to keep the chassis kit price down, but the cost to complete the car is every bit as important... that's why running gear and paint are so huge. Making the gel-coat work means smaller panels, which means perfect molds and tolerances, mix in the design requirements of looks, aero, function and body mounting and it is a real tough puzzle. If you just try to slam all those things together with a group of people who don't understand the full implications of each, you'll miss the target by a mile... that's why Jim is the leader of the project, with good council and support, but a clear vision of the project goals and a really good understanding of all the variables. These questions on pricing, fuel tank location (which looks great by the way and likely NOT under the seat ensuring wookie fitment), are great. Still, there is a ton of work to do each day at FFR and our team is small and we can realistically only work 18-19 hours a day...

this is good news since the designs I gravitated towards had the driver pretty much sitting only a few inches above the floor and not much higher (which would have been necessary with the tank located beneath the seats)

[Flamshackle]

[QUOTE=Dave Smith;26402]Shocks and brakes are virtually plug-ins [/QUOTE

shock upgrades for the track are gonna be stiffer no probs but brakes? stopping something that's 900Kg (wet) can't be to difficult for 4pots (sti) that are designed to pull up a 1600kg beast? even the 2pots are going to be overrated for the application so can't see huge bang for your buck in pimping out the brake kit here?

fuel tank location (which looks great by the way and likely NOT under the seat ensuring wookie fitment)

wooooohooooooo! I can fit in it! i must admit being 6-4" I was worried about this :~)

[AVIONX]

I was in love with this concept from day 1. Now I am starting to have some serious doubts. Nowhere in here is a 265HP, Rear Wheel drive, lightweight, Targa. Which unless I am mistaken, is what most people here standing in line to put down a deposit want. I am at a loss of words that the 1 awesome 818 concept has somehow blossomed into three unique cars, none of which are what most paying customers want. If a wanted a wicked awesome roadster for slaying corvettes on the track I wouldn't have sold my Mark II FFR roadster (built by me for a net total investment of 14.5k$ not including paint. I am sad Just give me $12k kit I can build with a WRX/STI drivetrain and not have to scrap my plans because of some light showers on my way. PLEASE!!!

[GUNS]

I was in love with this concept from day 1. Now I am starting to have some serious doubts. Nowhere in here is a 265HP, Rear Wheel drive, lightweight, Targa. Which unless I am mistaken, is what most people here standing in line to put down a deposit want. I am at a loss of words that the 1 awesome 818 concept has somehow blossomed into three unique cars, none of which are what most paying customers want. If a wanted a wicked awesome roadster for slaying corvettes on the track I wouldn't have sold my Mark II FFR roadster (built by me for a net total investment of 14.5k$ not including paint. I am sad Just give me $12k kit I can build with a WRX/STI drivetrain and not have to scrap my plans because of some light showers on my way. PLEASE!!!

I think you misread something along the way. The first car will be the $9900 kit that will use the WRX drivetrain, 1800 lbs, rwd roadster that will just so happen to slay vette on the track. IN ADDITION FFR will be releasing a track spec version and a tdi high mpg/high performance coupe.

[kach22i]

I was in love with this concept from day 1. Now I am starting to have some serious doubts. Nowhere in here is a 265HP, Rear Wheel drive, lightweight, Targa.

From what I read in your statement, the doubts are about the weight.

The goal weight is just that a goal weight.

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/.../818intro.html

Target weight - 1,800 lbs./818 kg.

Remember that all those super light weight kit cars of the 60's-70's used a VW Beetle pan with a similar wheelbase.

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/.../818intro.html

Factory Five Space Frame Chassis, 95" Wheel Base

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Beetle

Wheelbase 2,400 mm (94.5 in)

Granted, some of those VW pan cars had reinforcing to accommodate Buick V6's and small block Chevy - Ford V8's. These cars weighed more to get the 200-300 hp, but those were weights and horsepower of a different era.

I would call a 2,000 lb 818 as Mission Accomplished, close enough anyway.

It sure would be easier to meet the weight goals if the car were the size of a Fiat X-1/9, but then what would the Wookies do?

[Flamshackle]

It sure would be easier to meet the weight goals if the car were the size of a Fiat X-1/9, but then what would the Wookies do?

yea! give the wookies some love

[PhyrraM]

I think he is not too concerned with weight, but is dragging the top "conversation" out again.

[kach22i]

I think he is not too concerned with weight, but is dragging the top "conversation" out again.

If true, then he does not understand the design or have seen the targa top option.

Either way, hard to respond to a post like that riddled with misconceptions.

[Dave Smith]

I can understand some of this confusion, since we dont have the car made yet. I think the scale models will be the next major milestone and will help guys see the design(s). Also not the time to get excited OR lose enthusiasm as there is still so much open air ahead. I am DYING to show you guys some of the stuff the team has already done, but that needs to be tempered with the fact that the next three weeks we are just FLAT OUT over-extended with shows, races, events, and car work. There will be a top, as was discussed at length. I posted the 818R photo cause I like it alot.

Here's some fun stuff. We have been doing limited bodywork (sanding) on a prepped roadster body with gel coat as part of this work towards a gel-coat (paint free) body. I know other companies have done this, but it is learning for us and part of a long process that will result in a better part at a lower price. Mad Dog gets back from vaca on friday so I should be able to update our website and photos and maybe share the gel coat process progress.

[sub322]

Thank you for the great update Dave. My reason for being here on the fourm is to watch the developement of the 818 and hopefully have the
chance to build one. This car to me is going to be the Porsche 911 I could never afford and I really like the idea of using the Subaru. My wife and I have owned five of them.

[NicksPapaw]

Dave, for once, I have to kindly disagree with you. You say it is not the time to get excited or lose enthusiasm as there is still so much open air ahead. I think that is really the most exciting part of this. Coupled with the fact that we are watching you help this country return to a position of greatness, one bolt, one screw, one frame at a time. What many people don't understand is that you have poured your life into your company, knowing only that if you do things correctly, treat people fairly, and make a product that the market wants, you might turn a profit. That, my friend, is exciting and I never lose enthusiasm watching the picture develop. Keep up the good work. Also, keep us posted!

[Flamshackle]

Dave, for once, I have to kindly disagree with you. You say it is not the time to get excited or lose enthusiasm as there is still so much open air ahead. I think that is really the most exciting part of this. Coupled with the fact that we are watching you help this country return to a position of greatness, one bolt, one screw, one frame at a time. What many people don't understand is that you have poured your life into your company, knowing only that if you do things correctly, treat people fairly, and make a product that the market wants, you might turn a profit. That, my friend, is exciting and I never lose enthusiasm watching the picture develop. Keep up the good work. Also, keep us posted!

well said! and im a kiwi

[jimgood]

On the gel coat front, I just want to put in a request that white be among the available colors. White and silver seem to draw less attention from law enforcement and I need all the help I can get out there.

[Dave Smith]

Exactly, 1/4 scale models have to be printed in sections and married together. The model making isnt limited as such and is going on right now. We are also hedging our bets, but if I told you about that i'd get nothing done this week. Seriously, this is a very challenging time for us with the street rodder tour last night, Goodguys nats last weekend, Syracuse nats this weekend and a CF fundraiser in Maine we are just flat out over-extended. I'll post the 818 stuff as soon as possibel but the good news is that the modeling is going full speed ahead.

[Dave Smith]

Jim,

Good call on the gel coat. This is, like I said, a HUGE part of the 818 design goals. White is easy to make look pretty but hard to make without air voids using our existing procedures. What I want is a variety of base colors and the new gel coats have metallics, you name it colors. Still I don't know where we'll end up as this is still being workled on. Dave

[Flamshackle]

I am a big fan of white cars, keep cleaner and looks plain awesome with black rims and a touch of chrome

[Oppenheimer]

I'm a big fan of silver cars. That carved metal unobtainium look. Agree also on the low-key, fly under the radar of less flashy colors.

I'm thinking that once the bodies are selected, it would be good to go back to the community for feedback on initial colors to offer. Not all shapes look good in your favorite color.

[Steve91T]

Black for me! I've gotten used to cleaning my cars....all the time.

[crackedcornish]

white cars don't stay white for long during certain months of the year where I live


me, I'll take something in Subaru Blue

[Flamshackle]

white cars don't stay white for long during certain months of the year where I live

Yea but it looks cleaner for longer than other colours ie black... but good pic for reference! hahaha...

me, I'll take something in Subaru Blue

THIS I LIKE!!!

[thebeerbaron]

[GUNS]

Lambo Miura?


What's the reasoning for posting that?

[thebeerbaron]

look at that curve, that color.

I prefer the "pop" in my pic to the muted color in yours.

[xabier]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VeoennWHP2...ni%2Bmiura.jpg
lamborghini miura.jpg
I also love the Miura, it is one of my all time favourite cars, its just beautiful and is considered to be the first supercar in history. Here I leave you a illustration I did the past week in my free time, the drawing was done in photoshop in a couple of mornings I was free. Just a fantastic looking car!!!

[kach22i]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VeoennWHP2...ni%2Bmiura.jpg
lamborghini miura.jpg
I also love the Miura, ...........

Me too, in fact it was one of many cars which inspired me five years ago when playing with some clay. Notice the round headlights, Miura/Stratos/Lear jet/Enzo style side glass, and rear quarter high haunch air intakes. Some design clues in common can be found on the Lancia Stratos, some versions of the Ford GT 40, and even the Dick Dean; Shalako.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...cpZZ2QQtppZZ20


My point is, a design can have many influences and not be a copy of anything else.

In X's design I see a Honda S2000, a Lotus Elise, some Subaru DNA, yet it is not a copy or Copy & Paste of any of them. It does not make me swoon, but with modest Subaru underpinnings maybe it shouldn't be overt or flamboyant either.

[AVIONX]

I can understand some of this confusion, since we dont have the car made yet. I think the scale models will be the next major milestone and will help guys see the design(s). Also not the time to get excited OR lose enthusiasm as there is still so much open air ahead. I am DYING to show you guys some of the stuff the team has already done, but that needs to be tempered with the fact that the next three weeks we are just FLAT OUT over-extended with shows, races, events, and car work. There will be a top, as was discussed at length. I posted the 818R photo cause I like it alot.

Here's some fun stuff. We have been doing limited bodywork (sanding) on a prepped roadster body with gel coat as part of this work towards a gel-coat (paint free) body. I know other companies have done this, but it is learning for us and part of a long process that will result in a better part at a lower price. Mad Dog gets back from vaca on friday so I should be able to update our website and photos and maybe share the gel coat process progress.

What I was saying is what a large # of customers want is the Vette slayer with a roof. If FFR says the only way we can make budget/weight/time commitments is to roll out a raodster version first, then follow up with a "roofed/targa" version later, then that's cool. It just means a lot of people will have to wait a little longer. Meaning the car I want will be version 2.0 out of the factory instead of V1.0. But instead what I am hearing is that FFR has already outlined Versions 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0, and the car most people want, per everyone who took the poll on this forum I might add. Is not any of those three. I am an Aerospace Engineer by trade. Noone can tell me that it is easier to Engineer 3 different bodies, and integrate a whole new engine/tranny/fuel type, then design a targa top. FFR as always is free to bring to market whatever they want. As an existing customer who has put down hard cash multiple times for their products, I am just providing them my $.02.

[crackedcornish]

the color works, but I think I would still prefer the blue

[Oppenheimer]

What I was saying is what a large # of customers want is the Vette slayer with a roof.

Are you sure? That isn't my impression. Not that the 818 as planned wouldn't accomplish that.

But instead what I am hearing is that FFR has already outlined Versions 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0, and the car most people want, per everyone who took the poll on this forum I might add. Is not any of those three.

What is it that the poll revealed that most people want, that isn't addressed by any of the three (yet to be revealed) designs?

I am an Aerospace Engineer by trade. No one can tell me that it is easier to Engineer 3 different bodies, and integrate a whole new engine/tranny/fuel type, then design a targa top.

Where did you get the impression that they are doing all of those things before they work on a top option? I think all they are doing is leveraging the effort to 3D model and clay for all 3 designs up front, rather than one at a time. Just get the basic shapes down, then put one of them into production (yes, at first probably as a Roadster).

Just because Dave excitedly says they want to do all these things doesn't mean they are going to do the things he is excited about (and talks about) most before the things he is less excited about.

I think we (myself included) have a tendency to focus on the things we want to see in the 818 we hope to build (like a top). While Dave gets excited about much more. So while he might have been convinced (in part from forum feedback) that a top is needed, and is going to do it, its not as exciting to him as it is to some of us, so he doesn't talk about it as much as stuff like swatch-watch bodies and diesel mpg commuters.

We talk about us losing enthusiasm, but we should be more concerned about Dave and FFR's enthusiasm. Lets not do things to undermine that, make sure they stay as pumped about the 818 as we are. The more enthused they are, the better the outcome will be.

[ddorrer]

FYI...in the not to distant future you may see a clear coat product that will eliminate the need to wash your car. NASA is working on a biomimicking project that acts like the naturally repellent characteristics of certain water plants; basically self-cleaning.

[AVIONX]

Are you sure? That isn't my impression. Not that the 818 as planned wouldn't accomplish that.



What is it that the poll revealed that most people want, that isn't addressed by any of the three (yet to be revealed) designs?



Where did you get the impression that they are doing all of those things before they work on a top option? I think all they are doing is leveraging the effort to 3D model and clay for all 3 designs up front, rather than one at a time. Just get the basic shapes down, then put one of them into production (yes, at first probably as a Roadster).

Just because Dave excitedly says they want to do all these things doesn't mean they are going to do the things he is excited about (and talks about) most before the things he is less excited about.

I think we (myself included) have a tendency to focus on the things we want to see in the 818 we hope to build (like a top). While Dave gets excited about much more. So while he might have been convinced (in part from forum feedback) that a top is needed, and is going to do it, its not as exciting to him as it is to some of us, so he doesn't talk about it as much as stuff like swatch-watch bodies and diesel mpg commuters.

We talk about us losing enthusiasm, but we should be more concerned about Dave and FFR's enthusiasm. Lets not do things to undermine that, make sure they stay as pumped about the 818 as we are. The more enthused they are, the better the outcome will be.

I can see my comments are either not being understood or not being welcomed or both. When I hear that FFR is building a kit like the roadster (I've been referring to it as Version 1.0) but with a roof, then I will get excited. Sorry To get everyone upset. If one of Dave's repeat customers telling him what he would like to buy causes him to lose enthusiasm as some of you have said (Don't worry Dave, I know that won't happen) that is OK by me.

[crackedcornish]

Shoot, one more thing... I do really intend to make three cars from this platform, but for budget and resources reasons, we need to pick one to start with the others to follow. Also we do intend to go from model to surface scan to scale in solidworks to frame/chassis to milling and plug very quickly. IF we can do many body models reasonably costed we will, however, I think we might get pretty lucky and I am very hopeful the 1/4 scale (most or all) will go to production. As far as ugly is concerned, I agree, if we decide to make an ugly car, then please know that the "me that I am now" would want you to kick the "me that I would be then's" butt. Seriously, we know the chassis and running gear combo is a winner already. We HAVE to have a radical, stunning, beautiful, "make-you-want-to-sell your-kids-to-have-one", "willing to take a swing at your mom for it" good looking car.

More tomorrow or over the weekend.

Dave, are you going to do a poll as to which body to produce first? You say "we" need to pick one to start with...who's the "we", us or you?

I just want to know if you plan on making the most popular body first, or am I going to have to wait for the second, or possibly even the third body to come out, before I make a purchase.

I don't want to be waiting for a body that never comes out if the first one doesn't sell as well as thought (because everybody is holding off till their favorite body is available) and the car gets scrapped for lack of sales. Far fetched scenario I know.... but I'm a pessimist

[Dave Smith]

Dave, for once, I have to kindly disagree with you. You say it is not the time to get excited or lose enthusiasm as there is still so much open air ahead. I think that is really the most exciting part of this. Coupled with the fact that we are watching you help this country return to a position of greatness, one bolt, one screw, one frame at a time. What many people don't understand is that you have poured your life into your company, knowing only that if you do things correctly, treat people fairly, and make a product that the market wants, you might turn a profit. That, my friend, is exciting and I never lose enthusiasm watching the picture develop. Keep up the good work. Also, keep us posted!

THANKS!!! In my haste (it's been a zoo here trying to cover the last two weeks of events that all landed closely) I didnt read your kind note. Thank you very very much for the very encouraging words. They serve to remind me and the team here that we are engaged in a serious and patriotic endeavor. I have no way of expressing my gratitude for this company, community and for the opportunities that this great country of our affords us. Freedom in it's beautiful and elemental form that we can live and have a RIGHT to the pursuit of happiness in the form and manner we choose! THANK YOU for the stoke brother!!!

[Dave Smith]

On the body config thing, I think it is more logic, budget and market reach (more folks can afford a less expensive car) that would drive us to launch the roadster version first, but I do like your thinking on putting the designs and accurately forecasted costing/pricing/details out to everyone on the forum. Truth is that larger scale model in real life will help tremendously with the selection process. The Coupe design is sooo sexy that perhaps it SHOULD be launched first. Even a track model could be justified in that it, (like the KTM X-bow or Atom) would get huge press first and build momnetum and performance reputation... Ok, I am excited, and late for dinner!!!

[D2W]

I can see my comments are either not being understood or not being welcomed or both. When I hear that FFR is building a kit like the roadster (I've been referring to it as Version 1.0) but with a roof, then I will get excited. Sorry To get everyone upset. If one of Dave's repeat customers telling him what he would like to buy causes him to lose enthusiasm as some of you have said (Don't worry Dave, I know that won't happen) that is OK by me.

Avionx, I believe that at the open house Dave was understood as saying the first car to come out (roadster) will have a top of some sort. Whether it is included/optional, soft/hard ect. has yet to be announced. I know that goes against the definition of what a roadster is, but that's my understanding. Maybe Dave could clarify.

[D2W]

Dave, could you give us a little insight into the designs you are working on. Are they all for distinct purposes, ie. one for the roadster, one for the coupe, one for the track? Or are the designs being looked at as being multipurpose, ie. one design could be the roadster and also the track car with a cut down windshield? (like what Xabier did with his design).

[riptide motorsport]

For some reason my mind is seeing yellow gelcoat. A la gen II GTM.