818 Project Updates From Dave

[skullandbones]

Hi Dan,

Welcome to the forum.

Working in a hydrolic environment (air), there is not enough resistence to support your arguement. It's too dilute. If you were in a H20 environment the importance of aerodynamics would be raised to the level you give it because it would be the limiting factor for speed/power. And should be optimized in every case.

Your worse example of aerodynamics: Cobra did quite well with a racing wind shield, splitter, air dam, and wing.

The wide track and wide tires are necessary for racing speed. If there is less stability (e.g. sliding in curves), speed is lost. I wish the "Stig" could chime in on that arguement.

Aerodynamics is important but not to the extent you suggest in this arena. Like someone else said, "it is a balancing act". Power to weigh ratio trumps aerodynamics in most cases.

I agree, also, there should be a separate thread to put Dave's updates. WEK.

[Dan Frederiksen]

He's been banned so I'm deleting the post and subsequent responses

[blueafro]

Wayne, good call with the ban. From his posting style, I've been assuming this was the same Dan Frederiksen who "enlightens" Space Fellowship and various electric and environmental automotive sites with his insightful comments.

[imom]

Hi Wayne,
I saw Dan's post before you edited / removed his comments. As a suggestion, I believe it's better had you left his original reply and just banned him and then left a post saying that Dan was banned for these comments. It shows readers that being rude will not be tolerated...but when you removed his comments; other members who didn't get a chance to read the post know what he said to get banned and behave the same way. The fact that he called skullandbones "thoughtless" after his polite reply... it would have been good for the readers of this forum to see what are the guidelines so others don't repeat it.

[2KWIK4U]

Wow banning Dan F after only 18 posts......it must be a record. LOL I can't say I am surprised though.

[NicksPapaw]

Thank you Wayne! Now back to our regular programming. 818 project updates from Dave! Dave, are you here????

[skullandbones]

Thanks, Wayne.

I might have gotten my feelings hurt if I had seen Dan's comments. Hee - Hee. WEK.

[BipDBo]

He's been banned so I'm deleting the post and subsequent responses

I thought he made things fun, but I saw this coming.

[Wayne Presley]

BTW, it's the group of mods that sweep up around here. I'm not sure which one of us banned him.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Darn, I put him on my "ignore" list (he's actually the only one I've ever done that to---I didn't even "ignore" Wayne's pal Meat!) and missed all the excitement

[DrieStone]

At least they banned him in a smooth and aerodynamic way.

I know he was a bit... terse and borderline rude, I got the impression that he went away since he wasn't receiving a warm welcome. I admit I too am a bit curious what he said that got the ban hammer.

[shinn497]

You know I used to troll like that...being critical of cars that aren't high mileage and low COD. For got why really. I think in the future I will want to buy/build an EV. They really are the future.

Anyway I think we need to get back on subject.

DAVE IF YOU UPDATE I WILL SEND YOU COOKIES :3

[nickarub]

Dave come back.

[BipDBo]

Dave come back.

I think we drove him away with all of the negativity, bickering and demands. It wasn't from all of us, but enough. He's got a lot of work to do, and doesn't have time to entertain us. Plus, it sounds like it may be a while before he has an updates to share, and by the way previous updates were recieved, he may not want to.

[Steve91T]

I think we drove him away with all of the negativity, bickering and demands. It wasn't from all of us, but enough. He's got a lot of work to do, and doesn't have time to entertain us. Plus, it sounds like it may be a while before he has an updates to share, and by the way previous updates were recieved, he may not want to.

I don't blame him one bit.

[BipDBo]

I'm not pointing fingers. I've p*ssed a few folks off myself.

[bbjones121]

There are a lot of people that usually take time off now to spend with family because of the holidays. Just an FYI for everyone wondering where people might be.

[GUNS]

Dave,
Any Christmas updates? I just spent the weekend at VIR tracking with a bunch of Elises and Exiges and they are very tempting.... I need some 818 updates to keep me on track!

[I_DID]

I was reading some of the post and noticed that someone was already banned. As a WRX and F5 Cobra owner I have been on the famous NASIOC forums as well as the F5 and club cobra (hi forrest!). Great resources, but people tend to be lets say.. rude. I presonally attribute it to the younger crowd.. Some are great dont get me wrong, but a lot are just plain rude.


Anyways, Looking forward to this build. This winter I have focused on a mild performance enhancement to the wrx. For little cash you can make these a lot of fun. Turbo upgrades, intercooler upgrades, and a WHOLE lot available. What I do question is the lack of AWD in the new design.. I recently read the F5 update on the website but I see RWD. I think this should be an option given the systems in these cars allow for amazing launches and driverability. It is a load of fun compared to my S4 (what I sold to get into the f5).... So anyways for what its worth, please oh PLEASE keep the awd option. Also the saftey of awd is unparalleled, especially when rain or fast corners are involved. Yeah rwd is a true sports car, but imagine this new design with 400 whp (for cheap) and all the other goodies from the chasis... It will keep a lot of us "planted" and make for amazing 0-60 times (this is great for marketing). Honestly, If I could slap awd in my Cobra I would.. well I guess I could but not as easily as something that is being designed for it.... can you tell I am a HUGE fan of AWD ;-)

also for those interested check out COBB tuning. Great product and staged packages available. Tons of support and longevitity is in mind with the ECU maps they provide.


If anyone is interested in Subagoo options just search google. Ebay cheap knockoffs to amazing product (see process west). Have fun, cant wait to see what comes out of this.

[GUNS]

I was reading some of the post and noticed that someone was already banned. As a WRX and F5 Cobra owner I have been on the famous NASIOC forums as well as the F5 and club cobra (hi forrest!). Great resources, but people tend to be lets say.. rude. I presonally attribute it to the younger crowd.. Some are great dont get me wrong, but a lot are just plain rude.


Anyways, Looking forward to this build. This winter I have focused on a mild performance enhancement to the wrx. For little cash you can make these a lot of fun. Turbo upgrades, intercooler upgrades, and a WHOLE lot available. What I do question is the lack of AWD in the new design.. I recently read the F5 update on the website but I see RWD. I think this should be an option given the systems in these cars allow for amazing launches and driverability. It is a load of fun compared to my S4 (what I sold to get into the f5).... So anyways for what its worth, please oh PLEASE keep the awd option. Also the saftey of awd is unparalleled, especially when rain or fast corners are involved. Yeah rwd is a true sports car, but imagine this new design with 400 whp (for cheap) and all the other goodies from the chasis... It will keep a lot of us "planted" and make for amazing 0-60 times (this is great for marketing). Honestly, If I could slap awd in my Cobra I would.. well I guess I could but not as easily as something that is being designed for it.... can you tell I am a HUGE fan of AWD ;-)

also for those interested check out COBB tuning. Great product and staged packages available. Tons of support and longevitity is in mind with the ECU maps they provide.


If anyone is interested in Subagoo options just search google. Ebay cheap knockoffs to amazing product (see process west). Have fun, cant wait to see what comes out of this.

The AWD topic has been covered before. I think initially it is not practical due to cost and weight. I can see this as a future option maybe. I personally prefer rwd. My WRX is the first AWD car that I've tracked and so far I'm not a fan. Holy understeer! I think the 818 with something like a 20-80 split would be sweet, but I'm still anxiously awaiting the first model at this point.

[skullandbones]

Could someone explain the difference between a four wheel drive vs an all wheel drive (other than engaging a 4x4)? Are they set up similarly? Of course, the reason I wanted to kow is that I have a working Nissan 4x4 with a 3 litre V 6. I don't suppose that would be a possibility or would it? I also have a Rav 4 with all wheel drive. I can't see much difference from the few times I've been under the car to work on it. I thought it was pretty weird when I found that my Nissan trans used automatic tranmission fluid when I first got it. I haven't seen a template of the engine bay so I really would like to know what else would fit in the 818 if someone wanted to do a variant. Thanks, WEK.

[Oppenheimer]

818 AWD is not realistic. Think about, the engine is being moved to the rear. The driveshaft to power the other two wheels is now coming out the back of the car. How are you going to make that drive the front wheels? Now you can see why AWD is not really an option here.

[DrieStone]

Typically "all wheel drive" is full time 4 wheel drive. "Four wheel drive" usually has a locking center differential (usually a transfer case with a low range) and a front and rear axle. Of course this is typically the differentiation, and different manufacturers call it different things.

Most "all wheel drive" vehicles drive the front wheels off the transmission, the center diff is part of the transmission as well. Then there is a drive shaft to a single rear differential.

Apples and oranges really.

[Draco-REX]

Could someone explain the difference between a four wheel drive vs an all wheel drive (other than engaging a 4x4)? Are they set up similarly? Of course, the reason I wanted to kow is that I have a working Nissan 4x4 with a 3 litre V 6. I don't suppose that would be a possibility or would it? I also have a Rav 4 with all wheel drive. I can't see much difference from the few times I've been under the car to work on it. I thought it was pretty weird when I found that my Nissan trans used automatic tranmission fluid when I first got it. I haven't seen a template of the engine bay so I really would like to know what else would fit in the 818 if someone wanted to do a variant. Thanks, WEK.

For the 818, you're going to need either a longitudinal engine with a transmission that connects directly to the front drive shafts, or a transverse engine from a FWD vehicle. And the initial body will be made to clear the Subaru engine, so I'd check clearances before trying to do a transverse engine.

The difference between AWD and 4WD is a center differental. 4WD systems usually don't have a center diff. Instead, they expect the driver to leave it in 2WD mode most of the time so the front and rear axles can work at different speeds. Then when extra traction is needed, 4WD will drive both axles at the same rate. Good for traction, bad for taking turns.

AWD systems have a center differential that allows the front and rear axles to rotate at different rates so the car can preserve every-day road manners while still have all four wheels driven if needed. Some center diffs are electronic and aren't always engaged, some like the Subaru are always routing power forward and back.

The problem with using your truck driveline is that the front wheels aren't driven directly from the transmission. In a situation like that, you'd have to raise the engine and transmission to allow for the driveshaft from the transfer case to the front axle or differential to clear. You wouldn't be able to fit it all. Subarus use a longitudinal engine and transmission to keep the half shafts equal length which nearly eliminates torque steer. This means that the front drive shaft and differential is actually inside the transmission. So by removing the center differential and putting a solid spool in its place, FFR can remove the rear driveshaft and just drive what were the front driveshafts.

Here's a good picture of the subaru powertrain in the 818 chassis. You can see how much lower the engine and transmission sit in the body compared to your Nissan.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attac...0&d=1321853193

To use the Rav4, you'd need to somehow remove or weld the center differental, converting it to FWD and then putting the front drivetrain into the 818 somehow. Again, clearances will be awkward. It might be better to sell the Nissan or Toyota and pick up a WRX. You'll know it'll work.

[projectrally]

Packaging AWD into the existing 818 architecture seems fruitless considering the way the engine and transaxle are positioned in the vehicle. At least, with a mechanical AWD system it does. An interesting concept for AWD system for the 818 would be electric motors in the front wheels like Acura's new through-the-road AWD or the Porsche GT3RS-Hybrid.

Packaging would be much easier, but of course the trouble is not only the cost of buying the electric motors and their ancillary components, but making the electrical system work as one cohesive unit.

But I for one don't see the point. The 818 is meant to be a pure, mid-engines sports car, not a complicated, heavy, touring car. If you want AWD in a 2-seat roadster, maybe you should think twice about the 818. You might want to give the Audi TT another look. The TT-S with the turbo 4 and the dual clutch transmission is a pretty nice car. Very very different from the 818, but a nice car nonetheless.

[I_DID]

I guess I came in late to the game.. I checked out the picture provided and they are well past any design changes for a rear engine etc. I honestly thought this was either Mid or front.. makes sense now.

Shame though... awd with that much power to me is amazing... and yes for tracking especially in a wrx, well 2 bad comobos (sorry I think my wrx handles poorly)


Conversely look at another AWD machine setting records.. Nissan GTR. This basically puts the smack down on just about anything coming its way, and dar I say even a F5 cobra. The technology is a major player and groundbreaking in most cases, at least for a street legal car... Another great example is the 911 turbo.


Well, still in love with the idea of this car for sure. I am actually excited the market for my wrx may increase a bit. Bone stock (at least for the next 3 weeks), older driver, treated well and a daily commuter with 48k on the odometer.


Anyways, glad to be a part of this for sure... and who knows, maybe one day my beloved F5 would be good for seed $ with plenty left over for goodies.

Random thought: Anyone remember the K1 attack? For some reason this springs to mind as another kit car with awesome potential. Would be a great benchmark.

[bromikl]

If you still want your AWD Subaru running gear in a tube frame kit, here it is:

http://www.murtayasportscars.co.uk/

I hear they cost twice the price of an 818.

[skullandbones]

I was wondering if the 818 kit which is supposed to be under 10k will be similar to the basic kit on a roadster for instance. That's what I would expect. Has there been any clarification from Dave to get a ballpark finished price (for donor build)? I thought I heard 14k in one of the videos but am not sure if I remember correctly. One thing that still seems unreal to me is that when you ask for a build price on a roadster, it is usually in the 50k range. Mine will be around 22k. Thoughts? WEK.

[Xusia]

I checked out the picture provided and they are well past any design changes for a rear engine etc. I honestly thought this was either Mid or front...

I think you must have looked at the picture wrong. The engine sits FORWARD of the rear axle, so it's definitely a mid engine car.

I was wondering if the 818 kit which is supposed to be under 10k will be similar to the basic kit on a roadster for instance. That's what I would expect. Has there been any clarification from Dave to get a ballpark finished price (for donor build)? I thought I heard 14k in one of the videos but am not sure if I remember correctly. One thing that still seems unreal to me is that when you ask for a build price on a roadster, it is usually in the 50k range. Mine will be around 22k. Thoughts? WEK.

Dave has consistently said one of the goals for the 818 was that it could be complete for $15k. I believe he also qualified that by saying it was for a base roadster type kit, and without a paint job (the panels will come gel coated, so there is no need for paint, though some will almost certainly get a paint job anyway). I would also assume another qualifier to the $15k price is using an older donor, probably with a stock engine. Add options (better shocks & suspension bits, nicer seats, better gauges, etc.), a paint job, newer donor, higher HP engine, etc., and you will likely exceed $15k.

[skullandbones]

From the SEMA picture, I can see the center differential. So the Subi engine/driveline setup is tailor made for the mid engine design. For the GTM you had to convert a transaxle from something else. So the changeover should be very straight forward. I can see how that would keep the price in line. Thanks for the totorial. WEK.

[Oppenheimer]

Conversely look at another AWD machine setting records.. Nissan GTR. This basically puts the smack down on just about anything coming its way, and dar I say even a F5 cobra. The technology is a major player and groundbreaking in most cases, at least for a street legal car...

Did you notice how much that GTR weighs? The antithesis of the 818 concept in many ways.

[Xusia]

And, do you know how complicated the drive train on the GT-R is? VERY. It's got multiple drive shafts because the trans-axle is in the rear. The more complicated something is, the more things that could go wrong. I work with technology for a living, and I'm huge fan of simple. For good reason...

[skullandbones]

I like the FFR concept because it follows the "KISS" line of reasoning. It is really great when you can create something that is good looking and functional but seems pretty simple considering it's capabilities ( I think this may be easier than the roadster). So far, the chassis/engine/drive train that is proposed appears "elegant" for what it is. I hope the finished skin reflects that same feeling. I think it will! WEK.

[Twinspool]

Hey now, the GTR is the fastest parade float I've ever seen. It steers remarkably well considering it should have a rudder instead of a steering wheel.

Ooh, can we get a "warranty void" button on the 818 too? How about rotors and pads that cost more than my student loans?

[Niburu]

My favorite GTR moment was watching one spinout at an autocross on a wide sweeper right in front of my work station.
The fellows I was working with all had the same reaction, "I didn't think that was possible"
The next time around he obviously had all the nannies turned back on, the car was much smoother and quicker with no tires squeeling at all.
The Miata guys were still faster though.

[el_jefe]

Hey now, the GTR is the fastest parade float I've ever seen. It steers remarkably well considering it should have a rudder instead of a steering wheel.

Ooh, can we get a "warranty void" button on the 818 too? How about rotors and pads that cost more than my student loans?

Have you ever priced out the cost of a dealer brake service on a 997 Turbo? Or any other supercar? The GTR drives a hell of a lot better than it should, frankly it feels as though it's defying physics. The thing is, to meet all the safety nanny regulations, and to meet its pricepoint and other targets there just isn't any way around the size.

<--- is tired of people crapping on a car they have never driven, that costs half of its competition (except for the Z06), and has the same issues (maintenance costs, warranty issues) as any other supercar.

[Xusia]

<--- is tired of people crapping on a car they have never driven, that costs half of its competition (except for the Z06), and has the same issues (maintenance costs, warranty issues) as any other supercar.

That's the meat of my criticism: It isn't a supercar (although it certainly appears to be trying), and for the price, it should perform better and not be so complicated (=high maint). But I don't consider the 997 or the Corvette supercars either (I don't want to down a rabbit hole, so I'm stopping there...). In fact, out of all the sub $100k sports cars, the GT-R seems like the worst value to me. Don't get me wrong, I lusted after it too, but after the lust is gone, I'd spend that money on something else I'd be happier with.

[Niburu]

it's not the car Jefe, it's the GTR owners we're laughing at

[Benji]

it's not the car Jefe, it's the GTR owners we're laughing at

Because you're jealous you don't have one?

[Niburu]

Because you're jealous you don't have one?

I have a Miata AND a Porsche 911, what's there to be jealous of?
Both of which are completely nannie free.
See how unbelievably manly I am.