818 Project Updates From Dave

[16g-95gsx]

When there are no addditional updates the thread will run wild

[thebeerbaron]

Over in the Drivetrain Dimensions thread, I posted some accurate but not engineering-quality measurements of the EJ205 engine as it is dressed for my 2002 WRX wagon.

Generally, the engine would (barely) fit in a box 16.25" L x 31.5" W x 23.5" H, give or take.

Going with what I know and the first Google search result (read - I just found this and can't prove it's correct), the 1.8L BP-ZE engine in my Miata can be described by a box:

17" L x 21" W x 24" H.

The center of gravity is undoubtably lower in the boxer, however I will now consider my original hypothesis, that the turbo Subaru motor is not advantageously short in height to be proven.

Back to you, Dave

[kach22i]

glass hatch

Look no further than the GTM by FFR, nice idea, see posts #25 & 27.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...d-GTM-Pictures

Found a vented screen back window GTM one too.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...Pictures/page2

I have to take back my Disco-Ball comment, in glass the louvers aren't half bad and not Retro at all.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...Pictures/page2

[bromikl]

Eh. I'm not sold on the window covering the engine - unless you've got a beauty like THIS under the glass.

McLaren-MP4-12C-engine.jpg

[thebeerbaron]

Something to note: the 65 Coupe glass is not exactly cheap and took some serious finesse to get right. Glass is also heavy. Not sure it would fit in the dollar or weight budget.

[Movieman]

Eh. I'm not sold on the window covering the engine - unless you've got a beauty like THIS under the glass.

McLaren-MP4-12C-engine.jpg

You'd want to show off that piddly 2800cc engine?
Put that 600HP beast in the back of a 818 and you could start it, stick in gear and step outside and watch it just sit there
and melt the tires and rims..

[bromikl]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_MP4-12C

"The car is powered by the M838T 3.8 litre twin-turbo V8 engine... It produces 592 bhp (441 kW; 600 PS) and 443 lb·ft (601 N·m) of torque. It has a redline of 8,500 rpm, with 80% of torque available at just 2,000 rpm.

"McLaren have stated the MP4-12C can accelerate from 0 to 200 km/h (124 mph) in 8.9 seconds.[14] The car will have a top speed in excess of 322 km/h (200 mph) and will be able to brake from 200 km/h (124 mph) to a complete stop in under five seconds. Braking from 100 km/h (62 mph) to zero can be done in under 30 metres (98 ft), around seven car lengths. It is expected the 12C will complete the standard quarter mile in slightly less than 11 seconds." (Emphasis added.)

Yes. If I had that engine, I'd put it under glass.

[slopoke]

turboengine.jpg This is my current favorite motor ... 3.0 L capable of nearly 1000 hp in tt setup and redlines at about 10.5K. The only drawbacks are price and longevity. It costs about $30,000 w/o turbos and needs to be rebuilt after about 50 hours of racing. It still puts out around 475 hp w/o turbos ... and that's before cams, valve train upgrades, and porting. Kinda makes me wish I had money tree ... sigh

[blueafro]

turboengine.jpg This is my current favorite motor

So, what is it?

[Flamshackle]

turboengine.jpg This is my current favorite motor ...

ditto... what is it? i like it already!

[Niburu]

I'd rather do a peripheral ported 20B over any of those motors

[slopoke]

It's a Hartley V8. just type h1v8 into your search engine ... that should get the juices flowing

[slopoke]

Did I forget to mention it only weighs about 200 pounds in n/a form?

[Niburu]

keep in mind a big part of the lure of the 818 will be the relatively cheap build price
spendy engines and drivetrains would throw that out the window
and if there is going to be a specific challenge series for the marque
it'll be for a very specific kind of build

[jimgood]

C'mon, Niburu. Let 'em dream.

[Ks2]

a wankel rotary would be fun... one of the new renisis engines perhaps, the lack of torque on the bottom end would be less of an issue with the lower weight, of course i would rather have a turbo boxer or MPG tuned TDI before i got a rotary...

[Flamshackle]

It's a Hartley V8. just type h1v8 into your search engine ... that should get the juices flowing

I want three of them! no news in the last four years however??? that seems suspicious?

[Horhay]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the top of your Miata engine's box is full of heads and other fairly heavy things. The Subaru engine box has all those heavy things towards the bottom/middle of the box, with the top holding things like the intercooler.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the EJ205's mass is likely concentrated lower even given similar overall dimensions.

[StatGSR]

^ yup that's been covered numerous times....

[thebeerbaron]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the top of your Miata engine's box is full of heads and other fairly heavy things. The Subaru engine box has all those heavy things towards the bottom/middle of the box, with the top holding things like the intercooler.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the EJ205's mass is likely concentrated lower even given similar overall dimensions.

<facepalm>
Not to be a jerk, but did you even read the post?

The center of gravity is undoubtably lower in the boxer, however I will now consider my original hypothesis, that the turbo Subaru motor is not advantageously short in height to be proven.

In other words, we agree. The point I sought to prove was that you did not magically have room on top of the engine for things like spare tires, cheerleading squads, or any of the other "cool" ideas floated around here "because the engine is so short". I did that, and then everyone circles back to saying I forgot about mass. Trust me, I didn't.

[818_Fan_15]

Since there are no project updates from Dave, maybe we should make up our own?

I'm making up a rumor that there will be a Lexan engine cover to showcase the car like an Audi R8, Ferrari, Lamborghini, *insert supercar name here*



Of course with all the ducts and intercooler, it'll look more like the R8 Diesel:

[Horhay]

Yeah, I did, but it was before 6am out here in Washington, and I was still a bit out of it. My apologies.

I will however float the idea that the top mounted intercooler, while a decent solution for the stock WRX application, may not be the most ideal solution in the 818 and therefore the overall engine height may not be as tall as with your EJ205. The intake manifold is really your limiting factor and I would guess that measurement is at least a couple of inches different. Still no room for spare tires or cheerleading squads, unfortunately.

[thebeerbaron]

The measurement was to the top of the intake manifold, not the intercooler.

[kach22i]

The point I sought to prove was that you did not magically have room on top of the engine for things like spare tires..........

Not to get off track, but it just depends on your design. The five year old clay car design I tried to modify to fit the template is a truck compared to other designs, and can hold a lot of spare tires for road rally events. What can I say? I really liked the old Stratos, the louvered hood vents concealing a spare tire below, in the flow of the radiator - this was retained.

The tire in my top view watercolor was intended to show storage potential, the real spare location is up front for crash and weight distributions reasons.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...rial%20Design/


I was not happy with my translation from clay to line, and felt I missed the mark. I have since done more sketches trying to capture the essence of that design, and will most likely keep on it until I get it right.

I'm not sure the 95 percentile male is an even 6-foot tall. The human template I got off the Internet was printed out by me to six inches tall, and cut up at the joints. If accurate, this figure is larger than what FFR gave us. No way is there an extra 3-inches under the seat for a gas tank using my new template. Sorry Wookies, but be happy that Dave said it is no longer "under seat".

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...rial%20Design/


The original template was a bit generous in the transmission/transaxle region in my opinion. The engine height seemed about right to me, but with improved aftermarket intercooler who knows?

[thebeerbaron]

George, you could have done the exact same design over a Miata engine, or other I4s, and probably Vs. The boxer makes no difference in the height of your design.

[kach22i]

George, you could have done the exact same design over a Miata engine, or other I4s, and probably Vs. The boxer makes no difference in the height of your design.

I agree, they all seem to be about 2-feet high.

.......................which was your original point if I recall correctly.

[scartaan]

red merak.jpg Maserati Merak
Another thought on rear end treatment. Lightweight, inexpensive, and allows airscoop to intercooler.

[kach22i]

red merak.jpg Maserati Merak

I love that car. One of my schemes incorporated similar buttresses, definitely inspired by the Merak.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...cpZZ2QQtppZZ20

[prematureapex]

Dave


Just one question and I'll leave you alone.


Do you foresee the "track" model having any trouble being registered for road use?

[Niburu]

^it will depend on your local state laws
for example, here in VA I can NOT register an Aerial Atom - mainly because it has no windsheild
in CA or Fla it's perfectly fine to do so

[Dave Smith]

Holy COW! I cannot get enough time to read thru this post! Yeah, the track car will be "registerable" but more details on the models and specs when we unveil the scale models. I am going to post an open questipon on the body design side. I have promissed to post all the voluminous submissons and the only reason we havent is the time to actuall get them posted. IF anyone here wants to help out and work with Mad dog here at FFR, I think we could get all the design submissions up fairly quickly. We would of course compensate the person with worthless promo parts and questionable recognition on this forum and our website.

[Movieman]

Holy COW! I cannot get enough time to read thru this post! Yeah, the track car will be "registerable" but more details on the models and specs when we unveil the scale models. I am going to post an open questipon on the body design side. I have promissed to post all the voluminous submissons and the only reason we havent is the time to actuall get them posted. IF anyone here wants to help out and work with Mad dog here at FFR, I think we could get all the design submissions up fairly quickly. We would of course compensate the person with worthless promo parts and questionable recognition on this forum and our website.

In this world where we all need to laugh more this one brought out a belly laugh in me.
Nice to see a good sense of humor!

[scartaan]

Katch22i- Love your "Merak" inspired design. The flying buttresses are already fixed on the chassis and this open design allows maximum rear quarter view- which is key for comfortable driving.

[3pedal]

Holy COW! I cannot get enough time to read thru this post! Yeah, the track car will be "registerable" but more details on the models and specs when we unveil the scale models. I am going to post an open questipon on the body design side. I have promissed to post all the voluminous submissons and the only reason we havent is the time to actuall get them posted. IF anyone here wants to help out and work with Mad dog here at FFR, I think we could get all the design submissions up fairly quickly. We would of course compensate the person with worthless promo parts and questionable recognition on this forum and our website.

What kind of help do you need? I can always use more stuff.

[adesilva]

Holy COW! I cannot get enough time to read thru this post! Yeah, the track car will be "registerable" but more details on the models and specs when we unveil the scale models. I am going to post an open questipon on the body design side. I have promissed to post all the voluminous submissons and the only reason we havent is the time to actuall get them posted. IF anyone here wants to help out and work with Mad dog here at FFR, I think we could get all the design submissions up fairly quickly. We would of course compensate the person with worthless promo parts and questionable recognition on this forum and our website.

I would be more than happy to help with anything and I am in the area.

[spaceywilly]

Holy COW! I cannot get enough time to read thru this post! Yeah, the track car will be "registerable" but more details on the models and specs when we unveil the scale models. I am going to post an open questipon on the body design side. I have promissed to post all the voluminous submissons and the only reason we havent is the time to actuall get them posted. IF anyone here wants to help out and work with Mad dog here at FFR, I think we could get all the design submissions up fairly quickly. We would of course compensate the person with worthless promo parts and questionable recognition on this forum and our website.

Hi Dave,

I am also in the area and would be glad to help with this. I am a software programmer by trade so with a little bit of information I can try to get an automated process going for posting up the entries.

[16g-95gsx]

Thats what I wanted to hear Dave. I would want the car to be streetable but more performance oriented than a traditional street car, which I'm sure any track model that you introduced would be. As long as I know it still intends to be registerable then that likely conforms to what I'd be looked for. I don't want a daily driver but rather a weekend fun car.

As far as handing out information, at this point in time you have the interest of a few people but the real interest will be generated when the official designs are completed. The time you spend on the 818 I feel at this point is best spent just nailing down proper designs rather than giving out bits and pieces in the meantime just to keep us impatient folks salivating.

[David]

David, knowing that you have done a bunch of suspension research I have a couple of questions. Let's assume you are correct that a typical inline-4 has fifty pounds of weight 8-12 inches higher above the crank. And lets say both engine/tranny combos weigh the same at say 350 lbs. (I'm pulling these numbers out of the air). How much higher is the center of gravity on the inline-4 vs the boxer 4? A couple of inches? Now if you compare those two engines in the same car (which weighs 2500 lbs) in which I would assume (again please tell me if I'm wrong) the center of gravity of the whole car is higher than the center of gravity of the engine/tranny how much does the engine difference change the entire cars cog. Maybe a quarter of an inch? less/more? How much of a real world difference does it make? I've watch 911's racing corvettes/mustangs/bmw's for years and there is obviously not much of a difference. I'm not arguing that there is a difference in cog, just wondering how much it really is.

Sorry for the delay... I can understand your logic. I havent done the math, but based on things I have read/heard and some practical experience as well I think with an experienced driver on a well setup car would feel it for sure. With that said, all of that roll etc can be tuned out of a car with springs, bars and shocks. This is why you dont see much diff between a 911 and a Corvette on the track etc, but for the stuff I mentioned in my first post, they all affect maximum grip capability along with the way the car transitions. I suspect this is especially true for a rear/mid engine design. In general, its always better to lower the CG in a performance car.

David

[D2W]

Sorry for the delay... I can understand your logic. I havent done the math, but based on things I have read/heard and some practical experience as well I think with an experienced driver on a well setup car would feel it for sure. With that said, all of that roll etc can be tuned out of a car with springs, bars and shocks. This is why you dont see much diff between a 911 and a Corvette on the track etc, but for the stuff I mentioned in my first post, they all affect maximum grip capability along with the way the car transitions. I suspect this is especially true for a rear/mid engine design. In general, its always better to lower the CG in a performance car.

David

Interesting, and what common sense would tell us. Being an engineering geek I would like to experiment with the same chassis but different styles of engines, and see what real world differences there really are.

[kach22i]

Interesting, and what common sense would tell us. Being an engineering geek I would like to experiment with the same chassis but different styles of engines, and see what real world differences there really are.

In the real world other things like driver skill, track familiarity, tire selection and so forth might make as large of difference as anything else.

To be clear, theory is more enjoyable to talk about (in my opinion) because future events with many variables out of our knowledge base or control is just too frustrating to imagine.

To set an example - a story I read about (sorry that I'm fuzzy on the details) ; a well known professional race car driver took a Stock Car (race car) to a race track which was set up with a different type of race car in mind; Can-Am /Rolex Prototype or something along those lines. He ended up breaking or coming very close to breaking the track record. There is your unaccounted for variable, the driver which can drive the wheels off anything, anywhere, anytime.

My two cents, the Boxer engine is superior for momentum type racing, Porsche has proven this time and time again.

http://press.porsche.com/motorsport/

Over the course of the last 57 years the world-famous manufacturer from Stuttgart has tasted success in numerous areas and categories of motorsport, winning races and championships on virtually every level of the sport. It is the most successful manufacturer by far in the history of international sports car racing.