Hyrdaulic Clutch Throwout Bearing

[robertjamesellis]

Hey Guys,

Trying to plan ahead on a few things and I definitely want to install a hydraulic clutch. I have going with a 351W stroked to 427 attached to a TKO600. I see its easy enough to set up the slave cylinder on the transmission option, but wanted to know if anyone has had experience using a Hydraulic Throw Out Bearing. Looks like Tilton makes a nice one but there are many other cheaper versions out there. Any experience using these with the Wilwood pedal kit? This is all new to me so anything else I should be on the lookout for?

Thanks,
Rob

[japollon]

I have positive experience with hydraulic throw out bearings in a couple of other cars I own. I am installing one in my 289 FIA. I purchased mine from American Powertrain. Seems to me it was about 350 bucks.

[edwardb]

I've installed the Forte external hydraulic slave setup on two builds, both with the Wilwood pedal box, on two builds and very happy with how they work. I have no experience with an actual hydraulic TOB, and don't see them mentioned very often on either forum. So you probably won't get a lot of actual experience comments. They're a bit simpler than the external setup, and no question widely used in many car brands. Including the 2015+ Mustangs. The number one issue cited on these forums is that service and/or failure requires major disassembly. That's true in any car, but especially in these builds that don't have a lot of room. I guess is is possible to get a TKO out without removing the engine, for example (haven't had to try, fortunately) but it requires some maneuvering. Many just resort to pulling the whole engine/trans. For this reason, it's often recommended to avoid the hydraulic TOB.

Having said that, for my Gen 3 Coupe build, I'm going to go for it. After some research, reading, etc. I'm going with the Tilton 6000 setup. By all accounts, it's very high quality (like most of their products) and reliable. I don't see where the Tilton is any more expensive than other choices. $335 for the 60-6104 model at Summit, the right one for my planned build configuration. But if that's more than other brands, given the downside of a failure, I'm willing to spend a couple bucks more for maybe a little insurance. Hopefully that's the case. I too would be very interested in experience others have had, including with other brands.

[DavidW]

I installed the American Powertrain hydramax hydraulic throwout bearing. Easy to install but everyone makes you paranoid with the "what if it fails or needs service" comments. The fact that if a problem arises the trans. would require separation to change it out, so be it. I decided to go with it because its a proven part and if it needs to be changed out, that's a lesson learned and then I'll install something else, or something easier to fix if a problem arises.

[NAZ]

American Powertrain Hydramax here. Yes, someday it will fail just like someday the pilot bearing will fail and a conventional T/O bearing will fail and the fix for any of these failures is to separate the engine & trans. The hydraulic style T/O bearing is a neat & compact installation but may not work with a Borg & Beck style clutch. The external slave cylinder style is easy to set-up and R&R if needed but are bulky if room is tight. Same with cable & linkage style releases, bulky and require sufficient room for installation and maintenance.

I've used juice clutch releases, mechanical releases and cable releases -- all work and all have pros & cons that vary by application. Make sure whatever you choose you have the room for it and it works with the clutch you want to run. And your intended use for the vehicle may sway you to one style or another.

[qwezxc12]

... Having said that, for my Gen 3 Coupe build, I'm going to go for it. After some research, reading, etc. I'm going with the Tilton 6000 setup. By all accounts, it's very high quality (like most of their products) and reliable. I don't see where the Tilton is any more expensive than other choices. $335 for the 60-6104 model at Summit, the right one for my planned build configuration. But if that's more than other brands, given the downside of a failure, I'm willing to spend a couple bucks more for maybe a little insurance. Hopefully that's the case. I too would be very interested in experience others have had, including with other brands.

Edward,

Our build plans seem to parallel in many choices! I've bookmarked the 60-6104 as well, as Tilton specifies it as the correct part for the Ford T-56 Magnum (TUET-11010), which I believe we are both planning in our builds. I'm pretty much decided on not going the route of a slave cylinder & clutch fork. Good thread with some info and pics: http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-fact...tch-why-2.html

Would you care to share your picks for the clutch MC? I've got a McLeod Street Extreme 10.5" Clutch (p/n MCL-75307) which is a single disc and diaphragm pressure plate.

Tilton's installation instructions suggest a 13/16" bore x 1.0-1.1" stroke MC: http://tiltonracing.com/wp-content/u...ies-HRB-V2.pdf
The Wilwood Compact Remote Flange Mount Master Cylinder kit looks like what FFR is supplying for the brakes and p/n 260-10373 is available in a 13/16" bore x 1.12" stroke:
http://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinde...emno=260-10373

It looks like it would be a good choice? I'm picking up my kit on Jan-6; I haven't been able to touch any parts yet, so I may be off on what will fit up on the pedal box assy.
This will be my first hyd set-up, so any comments would be appreciated. Thx!

[CobraboyDR]

I had a McLeod HTOB in a 427FE SPF with Tremec TKO.

I never could get it sorted out properly.

Went with a hydraulic slave instead.

[edwardb]

Edward,

Our build plans seem to parallel in many choices! I've bookmarked the 60-6104 as well, as Tilton specifies it as the correct part for the Ford T-56 Magnum (TUET-11010), which I believe we are both planning in our builds. I'm pretty much decided on not going the route of a slave cylinder & clutch fork. Good thread with some info and pics: http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-fact...tch-why-2.html

Would you care to share your picks for the clutch MC? I've got a McLeod Street Extreme 10.5" Clutch (p/n MCL-75307) which is a single disc and diaphragm pressure plate.

Tilton's installation instructions suggest a 13/16" bore x 1.0-1.1" stroke MC: http://tiltonracing.com/wp-content/u...ies-HRB-V2.pdf
The Wilwood Compact Remote Flange Mount Master Cylinder kit looks like what FFR is supplying for the brakes and p/n 260-10373 is available in a 13/16" bore x 1.12" stroke:
http://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinde...emno=260-10373

It looks like it would be a good choice? I'm picking up my kit on Jan-6; I haven't been able to touch any parts yet, so I may be off on what will fit up on the pedal box assy.
This will be my first hyd set-up, so any comments would be appreciated. Thx!

Yep. Reviewed the Tilton instructions, the Wilwood pedal box that comes with the kit (6.25:1 ratio), and the Wilwood compact master cylinders that come with the kit, and determined that 260-10373 13/16-inch master cylinder is the one. That's what I'm planning on using.

[qwezxc12]

Yep. Reviewed the Tilton instructions, the Wilwood pedal box that comes with the kit (6.25:1 ratio), and the Wilwood compact master cylinders that come with the kit, and determined that 260-10373 13/16-inch master cylinder is the one. That's what I'm planning on using.

Much appreciated

[robertjamesellis]

Great input from everyone. I think its worth giving a try. As others have said, it may go bad at some point, but I'll deal with it then. I'm sure other things will also go bad but I didn't get into this to play it safe. I want to learn things I didn't know before and try some things that I learn from others. I think I found the Tilton bearing that I need and plan on ordering it up. https://www.summitracing.com/search/...tremec-tko-600. Anyways, if its good enough for EdwardB, than I know its good enough for me!

[FLPBFoot]

I'm planning the same thing My wife will have trouble with the stiff throw of the cable. She sat in the cars at FFR and while she could push the clutch, driving with that much force could prove problematic with fatigue and all. I talked to Dan Golub at FFR I'm going HTOB. He has two set up on his cars. He indicated he could help with design details but sounds like the 6.25 to 1 is what he indicated and as long as you get the bore and stroke distance correct you should be good.

[robertjamesellis]

I'm feeling better about this decision all the time. I researched what Tilton recommended and ended up purchasing the Wilwood 260-10374 Short 7/8" Bore Master Cylinder Kit and the Tilton TOB. I think this will be a nice upgrade and save my own legs. Hopefully it all comes together!

[edwardb]

I'm feeling better about this decision all the time. I researched what Tilton recommended and ended up purchasing the Wilwood 260-10374 Short 7/8" Bore Master Cylinder Kit and the Tilton TOB. I think this will be a nice upgrade and save my own legs. Hopefully it all comes together!

Curious why you chose the 7/8" MC. For the Tilton 6000 TOB and 10.5 - 11 inch diaphragm style clutch, instructions recommend 13/16" MC. At the very least, the larger size will increase effort. 1/16" probably won't make a huge difference, but every little bit helps. http://tiltonracing.com/wp-content/u...ies-HRB-V2.pdf

[robertjamesellis]

You are right on this one. I didn't look close enough to separate the recommendations between the diaphragm and lever clutch. Tilton does recommend the 13/16" but I can't believe 1/16" is going to make much difference. But this will be a good test! I will let you know how it turns out.

[1932]

I use a 3/4 with tilton 6000.

[robertjamesellis]

I wrote to wilwood asking for some guidance. My assumption would be with a larger bore, a little more pedal pressure but less pedal travel. And as long as a clutch stop is in place, i shouldn't have to worry. But I'm the amateur here, so I'm interested in hearing what others and wilwood has to say.

[edwardb]

I wrote to wilwood asking for some guidance. My assumption would be with a larger bore, a little more pedal pressure but less pedal travel. And as long as a clutch stop is in place, i shouldn't have to worry. But I'm the amateur here, so I'm interested in hearing what others and wilwood has to say.

Correct. Larger bore on the MC will give more travel to the slave but at the expense of higher pedal effort. I haven't done the hydraulic TOB yet, although planned for the current Coupe build. But on my previous Roadster build with the Forte external setup, I changed from a 1.125 MC to a 1.00 MC. Mainly because the 1.125 was driving the slave quite a bit beyond its rated travel. With the 1.00 MC, I can push the pedal all the way to the floor and the slave stays within spec while completely releasing the clutch. What surprised me was the reduction of pedal effort. Pretty big difference. Made a believer out of me to make sure the MC and slave are well matched.

In this case, the Tilton instructions are pretty straightforward. Clutch pedal ratio between 5:1 and 7:1 (the Wilwood box is 6.25:1), 10.5" or 11" diaphragm-type clutch (typical for our builds), 1.00" master cylinder stroke (that's what I measured for the Wilwood pedal box in the Coupe footbox with the proper pedal position) = 13/16" recommended master cylinder bore and what I am planning to install.

Just an aside comment. I've done cable clutch setups and now a couple external hydraulic ones. I "think" the hydraulic ones were a little smoother and lighter, but it's not night and day. The bigger advantage for me was eliminating snaking the cable through the engine compartment where heat can eat cables. I'm hoping the hydraulic TOB in the Coupe will maybe a little lighter still. But it's no silver bullet. We are typically running pretty high HP clutches in these cars, and they don't have any spring assist as is common in many DD's. Like a current Mustang for example. These builds will typically have a somewhat high effort clutch. Don't expect hydraulic to make it something it isn't.

[David Hodgkins]

It's not just a question of when the TOB goes that requires separating the trans from the bellhousing, same thing applies if you have to adjust the clutch. I had a TOB in my MKIII and after the first time adjusting it (disassemble, add spacer rings, test) I switched to Fortes hydraulic slave. It can be adjusted externally.

I put the same slave setup in my 2nd build and will do the same for my 3rd.

[edwardb]

It's not just a question of when the TOB goes that requires separating the trans from the bellhousing, same thing applies if you have to adjust the clutch. I had a TOB in my MKIII and after the first time adjusting it (disassemble, add spacer rings, test) I switched to Fortes hydraulic slave. It can be adjusted externally.

I put the same slave setup in my 2nd build and will do the same for my 3rd.

In theory, the hydraulic TOB (or Hydraulic Release Bearing or HRB as some mfg's call them) is supposed to be self-adjusting. Assuming it's set up right in the first place. This from the Tilton instructions: "The hydraulic release bearing assembly is self-adjusting in that the bearing stays close to the clutch spring at all times, even though the spring changes position with clutch wear. There is no extra return spring that pulls the piston back all the way to the bottomed position. In this respect, the piston in the hydraulic bearing assembly works like the piston in a disc brake caliper, returning only as far as forced. This is why with a Tilton hydraulic release bearing assembly the clutch pedal feel does not change with clutch wear allowing the driver to make more consistent shifts."

[NAZ]

Yes the hydraulic TOB will someday fail and require separating the engine & trans. Just like someday the pilot bearing and mechanical TOB will fail and require separating the engine & trans. And the clutch won't last forever either. I've replaced my share of clutches and component parts as once upon a time I used to do that for a living. So no matter which clutch disengagement system you choose, I am absolutely sure that "someday" the engine & trans will have to be split.

I've used mechanical linkage, cable, hydraulic slave, and hydraulic TOB -- all have pros and cons. Selection of type is usually dependent on some distinct advantage or overcoming some impediment. The hydraulic TOB has a real advantage when it comes to space and installation. The slave cylinder style is better when it comes to maintenance. The hydraulic TOB has a real disadvantage as it limits your selection of clutch types so if you want a Borg & Beck style clutch don't buy a hydraulic TOB as they may not play nice together. The mechanical & cable systems are faster if you like to bang shifts but are more difficult to install (unless the car already has provisions for them) and they take up more real estate.

If you want a maintenance free coupling system go with an automatic as most converters will outlast the engine (and the car). But where's the fun in that? You probably already have a couple of vehicles with automatics.

[mike forte]

Hi Guys,
As some of you know I've been selling new manual transmissions since spring of 1983. The hydraulic throw out bearing for an OEM application is very reliable. The aftermarket hyd. bearings were welcomed by me initially. Easy to install and simple.
Over many many years of selling Tilton, McLeod & RAM and talking with failures of these products has coined the phrase "reliably unreliable".
Add the failure to mandatory removal of the transmission (in a FFR) that isn't easy inspired me to develop countless external slave clutch release systems for many applications.
My kit includes the Wilwood master kit, fittings & line along with slave cylinder & bracket with adjustable pushrod to operate the OEM clutch fork & bearing.