LD9 in an 818

[viribus.knight]

A little backstory/context. I have the money to buy the 818c kit, including the ffr-provided extras that I've picked, but my '98 Pontiac Sunfire GT just got wrecked. Rather than fix the destroyed rear end, what would it take to put the LD9 in the 818? I understand the basics of how the Subaru engine and transmission are setup for it to be a mid-engine design (thanks to the build done on youtube by snap-on tools). What I don't know for certain is if the engine and transmission setup provided by a front-engine/front-wheel drive vehicle like the Sunfire will mount. Does anyone have any advice on who to ask/where to look, or has anyone tried using a front-wheel drive transmission in place of the Subaru one?

[wallace18]

Check out Frank818. He did a VW VR6 install in an 818. Lots of work though it is possible.

[ben1272]

I suppose anything is possible if you put your mind (and money) to it, but I'll bet that is a challenging project. You would be mounting it transverse (as it was in the sunfire) in order to use its stock tranny. I found the attached picture of someone's project car with a transverse engine being positioned in the rear of a tube frame. It looks to me like you would have quite a bit of frame modification. I wouldnt attempt if it is your first rodeo with frame re-design/modifications or at least make sure to have someone who knows take a look at your plans and workmanship.

On the other hand, if you found a 5 speed from a subaru and had a plate adapter made up to fit the sunfire engine, you might have a combination that would fit. The Ford inline 4-cyl ecoboost fit, but I think it was a tight install.

Good luck either way! I say scrap the sunfire and use what cash you can get to put towards a wrecked Subbie. The 818 project will go much smoother for you!

Merry Christmas!

transverse engine in rear.JPG

[Sgt.Gator]

viribus.knight a good reference build blog and a book you can buy regarding building a mid-engine car with a transverse/tranny (Honda) is the Midlana. I bought the book which was enough to convince me it was not a project I wanted to tackle, but the info in there is good for a first time fabricator. The book is worth the money and the blog is great too, and free. Midlana.com .

And for what it's worth, he's had lots of issues with his Honda. For example, something I didn't know was that Hondas also blow engines in high G turns because the timing chain picks up oil in the turn, raises it like an escalator to the top of the head, and the pickup starves out.

Blown engines and issues are not just a Subaru thing!

[Frank818]

Hey welcome viribus!

If you want to mount it tranverse you need a small engine/gearbox, otherwise it won't fit due to the smaller area just back of the engine. There are suspension tubes going there. The VR6, which is a little roomier than a 4-pot was not fitting at all due to the transverse gearbox.

Best thing to do is you get measurements of your entire drivetrain and you could compare with the space available.
You could also buy the kit and test fit your engine. If it doesn't fit, get something different and fix your Sunfire's rear end. I understand removing the engine and gearbox for a test fit is a lot of work, but engines and gearboxes have so many odd angles you could find yourself thinking it will fit and then a small 5"x5" area will kill your project once you slide it in. You need a Plan B and maybe a Plan C in case you want to test fit thinking it will fit and turns out it doesn't.

[kb58]

viribus.knight a good reference build blog and a book you can buy regarding building a mid-engine car with a transverse/tranny (Honda) is the Midlana. I bought the book which was enough to convince me it was not a project I wanted to tackle, but the info in there is good for a first time fabricator. The book is worth the money and the blog is great too, and free. Midlana.com .

And for what it's worth, he's had lots of issues with his Honda. For example, something I didn't know was that Hondas also blow engines in high G turns because the timing chain picks up oil in the turn, raises it like an escalator to the top of the head, and the pickup starves out.

Blown engines and issues are not just a Subaru thing!

I'm the designer/builder of Midlana and periodically search to see where "Midlana" is being discussed. After reading the above I signed up solely to correct a couple of points...

The only thing in the above comments that isn't misleading is the statement that if a stock K24 is used on-track, in left hand turns oil can run to the right (the front of the engine). The cam may then elevate oil out of the pan into the head and that combined with the hard cornering and oil slosh, it can indeed starve the engine.

What I take issue with is the inference that my engine failure is somehow indicative of all Honda engines. Left out was the fact that the engine is turbocharged and makes 470-530 hp. Given that this is roughly 3X the output of stock, its reliability will certainly be less than stock.

Also misleading is the inference that I blew up the engine due to oiling issues, implying that Hondas are as bad as Subarus. Left out was the fact that a properly-baffled pan was used for the first build and the engine had zero oiling problems. Later, a dry sump system was added and again, zero oiling problems.

Yes, the engine did blow up (right as I caught up to a Porsche GT3, but I digress). The destroyed engine showed zero oiling issues. No one who looked at the parts was able to determine what happened, but given that the rods, pistons, and piston pins were aftermarket, and the parts which failed, it has nothing to do with Honda (why not demonize the aftermarket piston or rod manufacturer?).

Lastly, previous to Midlana, I built Kimini, a tube-frame carbon shell classic "Mini." It used a dead-stock Honda Prelude H22A1 and not surprisingly, was dead reliable. Just wanted to set the record straight on engine reliability

[turbomacncheese]

I love that timing, though!! Thanks for taking the time to jump in here!

[viribus.knight]

After reading all the replies, I think I've decided that I'll buy the kit and test fit the LD9 and Getrag. If it fits, I'll jump on the j-body forums and get advice on raising it the rest of the way to 300 whp. As a backup plan, what about getting 300 whp n/a (meth is fine, just no t/c, s/c, or nos) from an impreza engine? I don't have anything against f/i (I'm sure the LD9 will need to be twincharged before it'll touch 300, even with a rebuild, higher cr, a proper cold-air intake, a tune, and some 50/50), but I've seen a few members of this forums saying they'd have gone n/a for various reasons. My goal is 300 whp based on approximate lbs/hp. One of my friends in Michigan has an HHR that they tuned to 500 hp (I don't know if that number is crank or wheel), and they had trouble keeping the tires from spinning. Guessing that it dyno'ed that 500 hp as whp, that gives that HHR between 6 and 7 lbs/hp. As much as I'm building a sports car, and sports cars aren't usually known for their mpg, I would like my 818 to be reliable, get decent mpg, and still have a healthy pep in its step. Similar to that HHR. Fewer lbs/hp than a base trim mustang or camaro (according to autoblog.com's hp to weight article), but not quite as extremely low as an aventador or veyron. Can the impreza engine be tuned for decent mpgs (say... 20-25 hwy), stay n/a, and still have roughly 300 whp? Again, 50/50 is part of the plan (whether LD9 or EJ), and I'm fine rebuilding the internals. I'm sure I'm repeating myself way too much, but I'll do my best not to claim to be the best written.

[viribus.knight]

And thank you for all the replies. I look forward to the replies to come, and to when I get my kit ordered and get it assembled. I went ahead and put some of what I had for my kit into ordering the pieces to fix my sunfire, and having them painted to at least somewhat match the original ones. The damage wasn't too extreme; just enough for me to need a new bumper cover, a new trunk lid, a replacement backup camera, and the deep cycle battery that powered my electronics. I'll have to re-run a couple of those cables, too. Used ~2k of the 14 I had for purchasing the kit.

[phil1734]

The N/A EJ2.5 is good for an absolute maximum of about 200hp, and it takes a lot of work to get it there. For the time, money, and effort involved it's much easier to do a WRX/STi swap.

I think I have the only 2.5N/A 818S and it tips the scales just under 1800lbs and an alleged 165hp. That puts me at 11hp/lb, which while far from crazy is still not terrible and plenty of fun. IMHO, with the weight and wheelbase of the 818, unless you're on track with slicks and aero you'll never have a need or be able to use more than 300bhp. I've been averaging 32mpg even driving pretty hard.

If you do want to do something different, keep it GM, and have a friend that knows the engine, the 2.4 turbo Ecotech would make a great swap. GM performance sells everything you'd need for 300hp with a warranty.

[viribus.knight]

11 lbs/hp is still a nice number for street use. Not quite the same as that HHR, but that HHR was designed for track/race/event use from what I understand. I could live with my 818 ending up at between 12 and 10 lbs/hp as long as I can keep it in the 25k price range and keep it reliable. I'm hoping to add a small sound system in there as well, maybe even cut in the donor's climate controls if I can.

[viribus.knight]

I'm chatting with some of the J-Body forum members, seeing if my 2.4 can make 200 chp n/a reliable for 50k miles with proper care between rebuilds. Hopefully for less than 3k$, to keep me under my 20-25k goal.

[EODTech87]

I understand the desire to save the money and use the engine that you currently have but with a stock WRX engine and transmission you'll make more power than the LD9 N/A. If you leave it stock you'll also have a very reliable engine with a good powerband. You should be able to find a EJ205 for a very reasonable price and it would save a whole lot of headache later on.

BTW, where are you located?

[turbomacncheese]

Agreed. I've read a LOT of threads where people were looking for big power from the EJ NA, and I don't know if anyone ever did it (except this one-off project that was more than your whole budget just in the engine, and the project hasn't been updated since the first dyno run...might have blown up for all I know). Looking for more power out of a non Subaru setup is going to add a lot of cost as well, and you're on your own. I don't even think I'd rely on people who have already done it here, no matter how much they would like to help. Life gets in the way, and you never know when you'll lose your support.

If I were building this as a strict budget build to have something that would scoot around and be fun, I'd follow fill with the 2.5 NA, and keep it as light as possible. No sound, no climate control, etc.

A guy put together a bunch of power to weight ratios here
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...03I/edit#gid=0
The numbers are calculated backwards from what I'm used to (literally power to weight, vs my preferred lb/hp) but you can do the math and find cars like the 350z, Rx7, WRX STI, GTO, 5.7 Challenger etc all in that 10-11 lb/hp. Not bad compared to NA, but it really is a lot of work when you get down to it. After all, you could buy some of these cars salvage title and get back in working order for your budget. Then you have a car with a stereo, air bags, etc. It will have about as much market value as the kit car, judging from people who have sold them so far.

Don't underestimate the price creep of going off script with these. It will smash your budget REAL quick.

For me, this project isn't worth doing if I can't surprise the hell out of someone in a corvette or some other nastiness (don't even care if I catch them, as long as they are surprised) and the only way to do that with THIS car on a BUDGET is to turbo it and be careful on the spend.

There are other kits that might take your LD9 (Caterham maybe? LoCost variants?) but I can't be sure. They just don't look as nice (IMO). YMMV. Best of luck.

[viribus.knight]

I get where you're coming from, turbomac. Honestly, 10 lbs/hp is more than I've ever had the pleasure of handling, and I'd say I'm in it for the sheer novel of having built my own sports coupe how I want it. Including the comfort factors, such as sound and climate. I don't care about the air bags, even though I probably should. If I were to use the LD9, I know I can make 200 crank with what's on it now, some meth, and a tune. I wouldn't mind a WRX donor drivetrain, if it can reliably hold its >200 hp power levels for 25-50k street miles between rebuilds (2-5 years, in my case). 300 hp would be cool, but 200 is plenty. Especially if sacrificing that 100 means it lasts longer and is more reliable. I'm shooting for $20k, maybe $25k if I can't find a good donor at auction.

BTW, where are you located?

Georgia, about an hour outside the perimeter on a good day.

[EODTech87]

A Stock WRX that’s been unmodified will last 100k no problem. Once you start modifying them is when they really start having issues.

[viribus.knight]

Cool.

[turbomacncheese]

A Stock WRX that’s been unmodified will last 100k no problem. Once you start modifying them is when they really start having issues.

this

[Innkeepr]

A Stock WRX that’s been unmodified will last 100k no problem. Once you start modifying them is when they really start having issues.

100K ? we are at 227,500 on our 2005. I guess it depends how much you modify it. We did a total rebuild at 220 ( burnt valve on #4 ext ) then we started modifying.
Bigger injectors, turbo, tmic, all exhaust parts, swapped in some non avcs 207 heads, added more fun parts - and tuned via open source/taxtric.
Our biggest concern is all the "other" parts than can break (axles/trans). This is my first turbo car and a test mule for our 818c.

Viribus, you can get a good used drivetrain from just about any salvage yard. I was quoted 1500 locally (100K I was told). It included the 5sp trans, all engine bolt ons, and front harness.
The turbo/tmic - was not included ! If you decide to go this route, rebuild the entire bottom end. I learned a valuable lesson on the 207 I bought from an importer, installed it
only to find out the rod bearings were shot. Depending on your skill level, I did a total rebuild around 1K to include all sensors. I had the heads checked, but not rebuilt.

Give Wayne Presley a shout (verycoolparts.com), he's in your area and is a wealth of knowledge. He does donor pallets, so there is the convenience of getting everything you need already cleaned
and ready to go. I had a running 04 NA donor, but will replace quite a few of the parts.

I have the same thoughts as you " I just want to surprise them" - dont care if I can beat a Z06 or 911, just want to "keep up".
Good luck & best wishes.

FYI - just a quick search - https://www.ebay.com/itm/02-03-04-05....c100677.m4598

"E"

[turbomacncheese]

we are at 227,500 on our 2005.

Sooooo....100k easy?

Depending on your skill level, I did a total rebuild around 1K to include all sensors. I had the heads checked, but not rebuilt.

This is impressive. I had $925 for bore/hone, crank polish, valve job, and head rebuild. Bought some cast pistons, head studs, fixed the head-bolt holes that galled and stripped, bought some odd stuff like bolts, emission hose, timing covers and gears that smashed in the accident, etc etc, and before I knew it I was over $2k.

I know it would have been much less if I had started with an engine that hadn't catastrophically failed, but still...you replaced sensors too? Good job.

[lsfourwheeler]

Georgia, about an hour outside the perimeter on a good day.

An hour in which direction? I'm from Rome and go to school in Atlanta. (Building my car in Michigan though because I like to keep it simple... )

Also, I agree with the other comments that a stock WRX drivetrain will be the way to go. I'm in a similar boat as you with my budget planning and I really think the only way to be able to stick to that $25K target is to not deviate too far from the intended setups. Modification and mistakes are expensive. Find a ~100k-150k miles donor that is running well, do some maintenance items on it like headgasket, oil pump, water pump, and timing belt. That should get you the reasonable power you want and the reliability you're looking for while still letting you stay in a predictable budget and pull from the giant collection of builders and information in this forum.

[Innkeepr]

Sooooo....100k easy?...you replaced sensors too? Good job.

Like anything else, either buy a complete rebuild kit ( DNJ ) or piece it together, I wanted the MLS gaskets, not the ones in the kit, and a better oil pump.
As for sensors, they get pricey. Knock/cam/crank/MAF will set you back 250, the big ticket items are the o2 sensors ( 120+ for up stream - 60+ down stream )
I didn't need to replace those as mine weren't that old.

[turbomacncheese]

Yep, I bought a complete kit with MLS gaskets included (but not things like washer bolts for the water jackets). Just under $600 (cast pistons). Block and crank machining were about $500. I wasn't so lucky with my heads either.

[subysouth]

Agreed. I've read a LOT of threads where people were looking for big power from the EJ NA, ......

Yeppers, it is a thankless job heading down that rabbit hole. In this app I think you will benefit from a freer exhaust but outside that just leave it alone IMO. Enjoy the instant linear torque and call it a day if you go this route again IMO.

ss

[subysouth]

100K ? we are at 227,500 on our 2005. I guess it depends how much you modify it.

And drive it..... but I would still venture you are the exception there - you definitely got your wear and prolly two other peeps use out of that engine. Running lean and burning valves is pretty common in my experience. I think if I had it all to do over and were able to look past my frustration in working on the Boxer design itself - the very first thing I would do to any non-Sti turbo is improve the fuel delivery day one. I'd keep going until it was belching black smoke and then dial it back a mm.

ss