Pinion Angle

[Vspeeds]

Interesting thread. I have the same Moser welded banana bar. The rear end is mounted and I see it leaves little room for adjustment against the panhard frame when the arm is extended. It’ll be awhile before i mount the engine and tranny but ill keep this thread in mind.

[Jeff Kleiner]

What needs to happen here is an unsolicited user pole about the picture Jeff submitted . . . How many think the pinion is "down" in his picture and how many think it's "UP"??

If my drawing didn't provide a clear picture of pinion pointing down relative to the output I verbalized it repeatedly in post #6:

If the top of your banana bracket is that far rearward it tells me that the upper link is adjusted long which makes me suspect that you have the pinion pointed upward (i.e. front high). Once again when we speak of pinion angle we are referring to the pinion shaft relative to the transmission's output shaft. When determining pinion angle the driveshaft does not come into play---you can leave it on the workbench, and in fact if you follow my method method for measurment described below it will be easier if you do just that

Don't get caught up or confused on any thoughts of horizontal. Think of it this way; when looking at the car from the side if you were to project one line from the transmission output forward and another line from the pinion shaft forward with your pinion angle at zero they would be parallel. If you put any angle to the pinion the two lines are not parallel and would get farther apart as they go forward. If the pinion were to be angled UP (relative to the trans) it's line would be above the output line; if it were angled DOWN the pinion line would be below. Below is what we're after.

Clear as mud? Maybe a visual will help. Here is a quick drawing I made when this topic came up again on the other forum a week or so ago:



Doesn't matter whether the rear end is above or below the output centerline; 2 degrees down in relation to the trans output is 2 degrees down either way. Need more? print this image and then rotate the paper so that the line through the engine is pointing up or down left to right...see how the line through the pinion still remains pointing 2 degrees downward in relation to the line through the engine?

My method for ease of measurement:
Set ride height then put the car on jackstands so that the axle is loaded. We don't care if the frame is dead nuts level; we're only going to look at the difference between output shaft & pinion. We know that the crankshaft and trans output shaft are parallel therefore the face of the damper/ crank pulley is perpendicular to the output. We also know that the pinion flange face is perpendicular to the pinion. See where I'm heading? For me it is easier to get a good measurement with the magnetic angle finder by reading vertically on the crank pulley/ damper and pinion flange rather than trying to work with the horizontal shafts themselves. Once you can see the two angles you can then calculate the difference. Generally with these cars we want the pinion down ~1-2 degrees the input is pointing down in relation to the transmission output shaft. Reason being is so that when the axle tries to rotate it's input upward under accelleration the pinion angle becomes less. This rotation is especially more pronounced on a 4 link car using the soft rubber bushings in OEM Mustang arms vs. a 4 link car with poly bushings or a 3 link with polys in the lowers and the solid upper link.

Hope all that helps!

Jeff

So there's my response to the poll Doc

Jeff

[Papa]

I've been following this thread as I'm going to need to do some angle setting soon myself. Right now without any adjustments for ride height, my engine angles down (front to rear) 2.4 degrees. My rear end angles down back to front at 1.9 degrees. If I try to adjust the rear (3-link welded bracket from Moser) to get the rear angled parallel to the engine's angle, the banana bracket makes contact with the cross-brace that runs from the upper passenger side frame to the lower driver's side frame, and doing so would create what appears to be a ridiculous angle on the stubby drive line. I gather that I should account for about a 1 degree rotation up on the rear end under acceleration. I'll be watching.

[GoDadGo]

I'll dig through my "Didn't Use Box" to see what stuff I have that fits the standard Ford set up; however, I may have discarded the driveline mounts.
I don't know if I have them, but if I do I'll be happy send the trans mount to you.

Sorry, just finished digging through my "Cave Of Wonders" and I can't find the transmission mount.

[rich grsc]

It seems to me all the issues are with the Moser supplied rear ends. Looking at the pictures, it sure looks like the bracket is welded on incorrectly. I never had an issue getting the alignment correct on my 3 link.

[Big Blocker]

Jeff,

I never would question what your response would have been . . . we think alike and post alike on soooo many things.

FWIW, I almost didn't get involved with this thread due to the last one that went on-n-on forever.

But, that being said, I'm a softy for helping out other owners/builders.

Doc

[GoDadGo]

Amen Rich & Doc, Amen!

[BB767]

Papa and Vspeeds. Thank you for the posts! Maybe I am not the only one! Maybe you guys can help determine if I have totally screwed up or there really is a problem with the axles. Please keep me (us) updated here what you find as you set up your drive trains!

[DaveS53]

If you can't read this power train setup article and get the job done, you probably shouldn't be trying to build a car. It's not that complicated.

https://www.ccsdesigns.com/_builder/...in%20Setup.pdf

[BB767]

If you can't read this power train setup article and get the job done, you probably shouldn't be trying to build a car. It's not that complicated.

https://www.ccsdesigns.com/_builder/...in%20Setup.pdf

Good article, confirms what I have believed all along. Unfortunately if the structure does not allow for adequate adjustment to achieve these parameters what do you expect me to do, redesign and rebuild it myself? I do not have that expertise which is why I purchased a kit rather than try and engineer it from scratch!

[edwardb]

If you can't read this power train setup article and get the job done, you probably shouldn't be trying to build a car. It's not that complicated.

https://www.ccsdesigns.com/_builder/...in%20Setup.pdf

If you haven't actually built a Factory Five kit, and in fact have been openly critical of every offering and holding up your own personal build as a shining example, probably best not to dispense build advice. Especially when it's condescending and borderline insulting. It's not that complicated.

[BB767]

If you haven't actually built a Factory Five kit, and in fact have been openly critical of every offering and holding up your own personal build as a shining example, probably best not to dispense build advice. Especially when it's condescending and borderline insulting. It's not that complicated.

Thank you Edward. I was really biting my tongue with my reply. You know I was already noticing that throughout this thread (and many others) your advice has been the most thoughtful, helpful, and professional. I (and I am sure MANY others) really appreciate it and would like to say a personal and public thank you.

[edwardb]

Thank you Edward. I was really biting my tongue with my reply.

I was too... And you're welcome. Really hope you can get this sorted out. Hang in there.

[broku518]

I am following this. I have a 3 link setup (Moser), just by looking at this it seems aright. But I will need to do some angle measurements to see for sure.
Thanks for posting the links and docs here.

I am not well versed in parts technical terminology, but can clearly follow pics and schemes. So thanks for posting those.

@BB767 - I am kinda glad you are dealing with this now, so it can help others. Feel your pain, hang in there!

Thanks,
Martin

[NAZ]

BB767, by now you'd probably prefer to shoot a NDB approach at night in a 50-kt crosswind but hang in there I'm confident you will get through this and have quite a story to tell family and friends. Seems your getting lots of help -- maybe more than you can process. Also seems you're not the lone ranger struggling with this and I'm sure others will benefit from your journey. Good luck and try to have fun along the way.

[boat737]

BB767, by now you'd probably prefer to shoot a NDB approach at night in a 50-kt crosswind but hang in there I'm confident you will get through this and have quite a story to tell family and friends. Seems your getting lots of help -- maybe more than you can process. Also seems you're not the lone ranger struggling with this and I'm sure others will benefit from your journey. Good luck and try to have fun along the way.

NDB I can handle... It's the GLS and Microwave apps that give me the helmet fire. (I'm old school, and old...)

BB, we all feel your frustration. I venture to say we've all been there with one problem or another on the builds. Keep at it, it's solvable.

If I may offer my 2 cents... After going through this (long) thread, I get the feeling that something is being missed, Don't know what though. I know you've looked at the setup 100 different times, from 50 different angles, but your setup is really no different than most of ours. I suggest back up and start fresh. Go from front to back, top to bottom. There's got to be a bracket backwards, or a mount upsidedown, or something not seated right, or wrong set of attachment holes... I have a 427w Dart, TKO600, Moser custom (Ford 9 inch), Energy Suspension mounts, a 7/8 inch trans spacer, and I'm within a degree everywhere.

[BB767]

Hey, thanks for all the encouragement, all of you! I am just stepping back for a few days to let the whole process settle down a bit. I have been through Dave and Dan at Factory Five and the case has been submitted to Jim in engineering (at FFR). I am trying to take another long slow look at the car to try and see ANYTHING else I could have done or missed. As the guy said above, it's really not that complicated (after researching 12 hours a day for the last couple of days and really learning the theory). As all of you know, there will be an outcome sooner or later, and we will all learn from it. Even with all this mess I still love the build and the car!

One request if I may. Anyone with the same axle they have received and installed since July or so and still have access to it, could you please try and measure what the angle is in relation to the frame when adjusted as far down as physically possible? I know the final setting is not dependent on this measurement, but the frame is the limiting factor in the range of angles available. Please be sure and use the correct terminology, a down or up angle is in reference to the rear cover plate, not the pinion gear itself. When my frame is level, the furthest down I can adjust my axle to is up, a positive 2 degrees. It will not go down any more due to bracket interference. I am using the Tremec Tool Box APP on my phone for the measurements. It is not perfect but seems to be precise to within about 1/2 degree. http://www.tremec.com/menu/tremec-toolbox-app/

[BB767]

NDB I can handle... It's the GLS and Microwave apps that give me the helmet fire. (I'm old school, and old...)

BB, we all feel your frustration. I venture to say we've all been there with one problem or another on the builds. Keep at it, it's solvable.

If I may offer my 2 cents... After going through this (long) thread, I get the feeling that something is being missed, Don't know what though. I know you've looked at the setup 100 different times, from 50 different angles, but your setup is really no different than most of ours. I suggest back up and start fresh. Go from front to back, top to bottom. There's got to be a bracket backwards, or a mount upsidedown, or something not seated right, or wrong set of attachment holes... I have a 427w Dart, TKO600, Moser custom (Ford 9 inch), Energy Suspension mounts, a 7/8 inch trans spacer, and I'm within a degree everywhere.

See my above post, that is what I am currently working on.
But even when I change something else up front as suggest above and tried by me, it only makes the angles worse! The only available variable in the equation that improves any of the angles is the rear axle. I certainly wish any of you were closer and could put a fresh pair of eyes on the thing.
There are only three points of contact forward, the motor mounts, perfectly set in their place, and the transmission mount, which I have totally disassembled and reinstalled three times during this post with only negative result. Again, the only adjustment left is the axle! FFR has already confirmed that I have it installed correctly. There just is not enough clearance.

By the way, what is all that stone age stuff, NDB, GLS, MLS? We only have GPS, INS, and some old ILS's on the 777.

[BB767]

NDB I can handle... It's the GLS and Microwave apps that give me the helmet fire. (I'm old school, and old...)

BB, we all feel your frustration. I venture to say we've all been there with one problem or another on the builds. Keep at it, it's solvable.

If I may offer my 2 cents... After going through this (long) thread, I get the feeling that something is being missed, Don't know what though. I know you've looked at the setup 100 different times, from 50 different angles, but your setup is really no different than most of ours. I suggest back up and start fresh. Go from front to back, top to bottom. There's got to be a bracket backwards, or a mount upsidedown, or something not seated right, or wrong set of attachment holes... I have a 427w Dart, TKO600, Moser custom (Ford 9 inch), Energy Suspension mounts, a 7/8 inch trans spacer, and I'm within a degree everywhere.

P.S. It would really help if I knew the angle of your rear axle. Everyone keeps saying that they are within a degree or two but no one ever tells me what those angles are! If I knew that I could spot the one mine does not match. How much do you want to bet it is the axle?

[johnnybgoode]

Your banana/shock brackets may in fact be slightly out of spec but I'd go with a set of these https://www.americanmuscle.com/bmr-d...ical-0514.html or the ones Mark sells (I've used both, Mark's are very nice) and call it done. These are a great upgrade and you will probably only have to change your rear axle position by a 1/4" to bring the pinion into spec. The other advantage of a set of rod end LCA's is they will allow you to dial in your thrust angle at alignment time and will ride much better than the poly LCA's that tend to bind. If you wanted to check the theory you may be able to press the steel liners out of your current LCA's and put them back on and you should be able to move the axle back and forth a 1/4" and see what that does to your pinion angle. Even easier make yourself a set of mock ups out of 2x4 stock 1/4-1/2" shorter and bolt them up? Hope you figure it out. Good Luck. Scott

[boat737]

By the way, what is all that stone age stuff, NDB, GLS, MLS? We only have GPS, INS, and some old ILS's on the 777.

Did 16 years on the Triple myself. Probably best bird Boeing ever built. On Sparky now (the firebird, old lightning, nightmareliner) and it's doing it's best to kick my @$$. Keeps trying to out think me, I keep trying to not let it. Never trust electrons.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread...

[BB767]

Well, it looks like this is going to end with a fizzle rather than a bang.

Dan says to ignore it, it works for everyone else so it will work for me. (Not an exact quote but my interpretation.)

They had me do more measurements on the axle, some were very similar to the axle they have there, some were not. They had me adjust the panhard bar and the upper control arm back and forth. They had me remove and reinstall the driveshaft. They (said they) reviewed all the photos I posted here and sent them and say that I have everything mounted, adjusted, and installed correctly.

I am finished at 2 degrees down, 4,5 degrees down, and .5 degrees up, more or less, all measurements are within 1/2 degree which is about as accurate as I can get with the Tremec APP.

Dan says if it has more problems in the future related to the angles they will "take care of it". I am a little leery, some of these angles are way out of limits according to every expert who has an opinion on the subject, but I am going to get on with the build on the assumption FFR knows what they are doing. Not much else to do.

Thanks again to ALL who posted. I'll update here if anything related comes up, otherwise, see you in the other posts.

[BB767]

Your banana/shock brackets may in fact be slightly out of spec but I'd go with a set of these https://www.americanmuscle.com/bmr-d...ical-0514.html or the ones Mark sells (I've used both, Mark's are very nice) and call it done. These are a great upgrade and you will probably only have to change your rear axle position by a 1/4" to bring the pinion into spec. The other advantage of a set of rod end LCA's is they will allow you to dial in your thrust angle at alignment time and will ride much better than the poly LCA's that tend to bind. If you wanted to check the theory you may be able to press the steel liners out of your current LCA's and put them back on and you should be able to move the axle back and forth a 1/4" and see what that does to your pinion angle. Even easier make yourself a set of mock ups out of 2x4 stock 1/4-1/2" shorter and bolt them up? Hope you figure it out. Good Luck. Scott

Yea, Spohn makes some nice ones as well. If I get to paranoid about these angles that is my next step. In the mean time I am just going to go with FFRs recommendation.