newbie engine question..

[Brad.Walker]

I'm researching my engine & transmission options for a 33 hot rod that I'm planning on starting this summer.

My current thinking is to go with a Ford 302 donor engine. Then tear it down and build it back up as I want. I figure that if I'm going to spend money building a car then I should have an engine that I want. I'm currently thinking of getting a 302 Windsor from an F-150. Why an F-150, my thinking is the bottom end is going to be plenty sturdy and that is important if I make improvements to the engine.

As for a transmission, I'm planning on using a TCI Streetfighter. Seems like a really good transmission. I can't decide if I should go with the automatic or the manual setup. I've always liked shifting a real transmission, especially for a car like the hot rod. But, automatics have a very LONG ways and it seems like they have really caught up w/ a manual. I just like the look & feel of shifting a transmission.

Any suggestions/advice is most appreciated, especially on the engine setup. I've got really thick skin so don't hold back. I'm really looking for advice & wisdom here.

Does my engine selection sound reasonable?

Thanks.

-brad w.

[AJT '33]

Hey Brad, I'm using a donor "Coyote" 5L engine from a 2013 F150 with a TKO600 tranny, it all comes down to how much work you want to give yourself. I paid $2600CDN for it and will be doing minimal upgrades this year. just tore it down and will be starting to prep it for paint and then will rebuild it from the bottom up. A few items that you will need to make sure of is the timing cover and oil pan needs to be changed out, they need to come from a 2013 Mustang GT engine. Other than that the wiring needs to come from Ford Performance (ECM). Browse the blog as there are many people doing the smae, again, how much work do you want to give yourself other than building the car. (my advantage is that my son is a mechanic so the fear of doing the engine mechanical work is minimal)

[NAZ]

Yes, get the engine YOU want to run. More than any other car, a hot rod is a blank canvas where the builder can personalize the form and function to fit his or her desires. And nobody can say it's wrong. And if you want to shift your own gears the SBF and TKO 600 are a great match and the car is made for this drivetrain selection.

However, I suggest you rethink the junkyard DIY engine build. You can't beat buying a crate engine for time & money. I have the skill, experience, and tools for building engines and can't build one cheaper than I can buy a crate engine to fit my needs.

If you go with the 5-speed trans the predominate player is the Tremec TKO. There are two to choose from and each has two different overdrive ratios. The TKO 500 has a lower 1st gear (3.27:1) that IMO you really don't need in such a light car with even modest power. The TKO 600 has a 2.87:1 1st gear and will handle 600 ft lbs of torque. There are two overdrive ratios and for a street rod you'll probably want the 0.64:1 ratio as it allows you to cruise on the highway at a lower RPM and less engine noise. But if you are building a track car you may opt for the 0.82:1 overdrive as the RPM split between 4th & 5th are closer.

[Arrowhead]

The only caution about a stick is there isn't much room for a third pedal. It will work and a lot cars are built that way, but it's tough if not impossible to stretch out your left leg depending on how long your legs and how big your feet are.

[TDSapp]

So I have to agree with NAZ here. If you check out my build site you will see that I have been building my own motor. The reason I went that way was because I already had the donor car with the engine and transmission for the hot rod, and the rear end for my next project. What I have seen is I have really spent more money and time on this motor than I have on the Hot Rod it'self. If I had used a crate motor I would probably already be go-carting and working on the body.

Just sit down and start to figure it out. A junkyard motor will probably run you $500.00 and then you have to pay to have the machine work done unless you can do it your self. I paid another $550.00 for the machine work and for somethings I did not want to do my self. (Like put the connecting rods on the pistons. It was just easier to pay them.)

Then there will be all the little extra things you want, or have, to do to it. Like new lifters, new cam, gasket kits, oil pump, Timing Set... All of that cost me over $500 and that is not all of it. Take a look at my build site and you will find a page I have with my budget. (http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/budget/) I have kept it up to date and I am currently at $18,961.31 and only have stage 1.


So there is $1,600.00 just to buy and rebuild a motor. If you check out Summit Racing you will find that they have rebuilt long blocks for $1700.00. Sure it's a two bolt main but honestly you don't really need to go to a four bolt main until you are running over 400 HP. Depending on the gearing you get and the final weight of the car, somewhere around 2,100 pounds, a 300hp motor would roast the tires off the car with no problems. I know that WRP had his car on the dyno and was putting 275Hp and 325Tq to the rear wheels. He smokes just about anything that challenges him around here.


So if you are just into building motors and want to add an additional 5 months to your build then go for it. Otherwise, I suggest just buying a crate motor and dropping that puppy in. Oh by the way, did I mention a warranty? :-)

[Bob Cowan]

The short block in the F-150 is the same as any other car, no stronger or weaker. But the heads and cam in the truck engine kinda suck. And the brackets don't work well in hot rods and Cobra's. You're better off getting an engine from an Explorer or Mustang if you want to go the donor route.

Crate engines usually end up being cheaper. You can usually buy a crate engine for less money than you can rebuild a used engine. And Windsor engines have nor been put in front of manual transmission for decades. If you find a drive line like that used, it will be well used.

For a 302/5 speed combo, I would call Mike Forte, and have him send me all new stuff and be done with it.

[bil1024]

I got a ford 302 from an 99 explorer for 150.00, 99k in miles, got a intake and carb from the forum, bits and pieces from Summit and Ebay. Came in under a grand with no machining, just a honing. For me it worked out great and met my budget. Alot of people have the budget for the crate and high end engines, me not so much, but looks and runs great.

[TDSapp]

I got a ford 302 from an 99 explorer for 150.00, 99k in miles, got a intake and carb from the forum, bits and pieces from Summit and Ebay. Came in under a grand with no machining, just a honing. For me it worked out great and met my budget. Alot of people have the budget for the crate and high end engines, me not so much, but looks and runs great.

Your right but he already said that he was going to rebuild it into the motor he wanted. That tells me he is going to put more into it.

[Brad.Walker]

WOWZA! So much awesome information! I won't quote everyone in my response since it will probably clutter up the forum.

Part of my motivation for doing an engine rebuild is purely emotional. I've always wanted to build an engine. I've done a lot of work on engines in various forms. I've re-built airplane engines and built an airplane. So "building" is kinda in me. But, getting a crate engine is definitely a good idea. As I'm doing my research, I've been keeping a spreadsheet of expenses and it might just come down to a crate engine once I start to factor in money and definitely my time. The money doesn't bother me (nothing about building a Factory Five car is inexpensive) but the time is definitely something that is precious. This might be the only time whereby I can "justify" rebuilding an engine vs. installing off the shelf.. Those crate engines are hard to beat for value and a warranty.. 8-)

The comment about the roominess for the 3rd pedal is very helpful. I'm not a tall person but I do like to feel "confortable" in a car. And spending all this effort and not be comfortable with the 3rd pedal is really going to piss me off. I'm going to have to give that one some serious thought, especially if it adds to the overall workload. The Tremec TKO is an awesome transmission from what people tell me.

What would one suggest for an automatic transmission?

-brad w.

[NAZ]

The hot rod is tight and some autos may require chassis mods but FFR says the Ford AOD will fit. The AOD is a four-speed that replaced the old C-4 and has the SBF bolt pattern that makes it a good choice behind your planned 302. The AOD doesn't need a computer to operate it so it's a bit less work to install. Take a look at this engine / trans combo as it may fit your needs.

[Yama-Bro]

Brad,

I can't tell you which way to go for the engine. I can definitely understand if you want to build your own, but if you decide to go the crate engine route, BluePrint Engines can help out. We have engine and tranny combos specifically for the FFR hot rod. The parts in the combos were handpicked by Factory Five guys to work in their cars. If those don't do it for you, we have a ton of custom build options. We also have the best warranty in the business. Check out our website or give us a call if you are interested.

http://factoryfiveengines.com/

http://blueprintengines.com/

or

1-800-483-4263

[Brad.Walker]

Brad,

I can't tell you which way to go for the engine. I can definitely understand if you want to build your own, but if you decide to go the crate engine route, BluePrint Engines can help out. We have engine and tranny combos specifically for the FFR hot rod. The parts in the combos were handpicked by Factory Five guys to work in their cars. If those don't do it for you, we have a ton of custom build options. We also have the best warranty in the business. Check out our website or give us a call if you are interested.

http://factoryfiveengines.com/

http://blueprintengines.com/

or

1-800-483-4263

Thanks for the reference..

-brad w.

[Brad.Walker]

Thanks for the reference..

-brad w.

[erlihemi]

I haven't noticed anybody say go lighter. If you want to build your own just get an inexpensive shortblock and maybe put an edelbrock aluminum top end kit on it. Everybody wants an Overdrive, but the tko forces a third pedal. If your over 6 foot with size 11 shoe or larger the 3rd pedal is an issue. Otherwise the 5 speed is a lighter unit. Keep in mind a good T-5 behind a mild 302 is ok. The AOD adds weight. A built C-4 with 3.23 rear is ok if your not driving cross country. The fun is in the suspension. You could run a turbo charged 2.3L pinto motor in this car if you keep it light. Make it yours, heck put a Lycoming flat 4 in it...

[NAZ]

IMG_0759.JPG

If you don't mind doing an easy mod you can get lots of foot room. I had an issue with foot room and also needed to move my seat forward so I moved my pedals down and forward (about 3" down and 5" forward if memory serves). I also widened the foot box so now I have plenty of foot room (OK maybe not plenty, it is still a small car but you get the idea). If you have the means you can do this yourself or hire it done. This is a simple mod, however, all mods take extra time and money so they may not be right for everyone. If you really want to row thru the gears manually and find your foot box to be cramped there are ways to remedy that. That's what hot rodding is all about -- making it yours. So don't lock yourself into a box if you really want something.

If you look close at the attached photo you'll see a bulge in the foot box area just behind the collector. That allows me to move the pedals 5" forward and stretch out my legs.

[JimLev]

NAZ, nice info on making the pedal box bigger.