Custom Body - Methods and Means - Software, Programs and Techniques

[kach22i]

There has been talk in several threads about what it would take to make your own body to put on an FFR frame.

See posts #13 and onward:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...st-hear-me-out...

Artists and custom car makers from the 1960's and 1970's like George Barris, Dick Dean, Ed Roth and many others did "one-offs" all the time. This was in an era before 3D computer drawing programs and CNC milling. So how did they do it?

There has got to be more efficient ways today, to make limited production or one-off custom car bodies.

I'm open to suggestions.

The reason I started this thread is because I clicked on an article in Yahoo news which captured my imagination.

Man builds his own million dollar Bugatti supercar by hand
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technolo...211223675.html

Mike Duff.....the 25 year old
http://digitsup.blogspot.com/2011/07/mike-duff.html

Cougatti
http://straightfromthea.com/2011/07/...cougar-photos/

So far I have found little technical information about how Mike Duff pulled off what he did. I don't even know if the engine is still up front. There is mention of foam, fiberglass and a tube frame, but not much more to go off of.

Mike Duff is not the first guy to do something like this, just the latest in a long line of "can do" and "why not" people who have done it.

The two part foam crazy Russian method still looks most doable. However based on my limited hovercraft building/modifying experiences, it's not as easy as it looks, the foam absorbs moisture causing future weight gains, and it's just plain toxic and messy to work with.

The Russian
http://englishrussia.com/2008/05/29/...s-and-pu-foam/

Based on clay car building at home, getting things symmetrical is a real challenge, at least as much as a challenge as it was 100 years ago when all car were "hand built". Templates, ships curves and so forth must be used to end up with predictable results. Where do you get them, make them and how are they used?

Ship Curves, as photoed in the garage of the Edsel & Eleanor Ford estate at Eyes on Design - 2011.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...pZZ18QQtppZZ20


http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...pZZ15QQtppZZ20



Model first?
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...pZZ15QQtppZZ20

[IMG][/IMG]

[olpro]

Hi George,
First of all there is a debate over on another website (http://www.madmechanics.com/) as to how much that Mike Duff did on that car. Personally I don't think he had anything to do with the body other than finishing/painting. Yahoo makes it all sound so easy.
A good company for clay stuff is Chavant. They have industrial clays and lots of tools. The big tools, like those ships curves, radii curves, etc. probably have to be custom made. The photo at Edsel Fords with six wooden curves is kind of funny. There ought to be DOZENS of them, mostly in metal and including mostly true radii. This kind of equipment gets really expensive but one could make some by hand.
These days, the best way is to CAD model a design, then have laser cut wood templates made. Short of that, one needs to make a surface plate, etc. to insure accuracy. This is best in metal but wood could be used. Carpenter's laser levels can be incorporated into this for measuring purposes. It get pretty complicated just to get a set up.
Working from a scale model is okay but it has to be done extremely accurately too, with a surface plate of its own.

[D2W]

I have thought about doing this, and the way I was going to do it was start with an existing fiberglass body and modify it. If you followed Mark Smith and his development of the G3F you saw him start with a GTM body and modify it by bonding on a different front and rear (both from different cars). In between he carved foam and fiberglassed over the top to develop the shape he wanted. It no longer looks anything like a GTM. If you wanted to make multiple copies all you need to do is take it to a mold maker.

[olpro]

If you can work over an existing surface, you can have a much quicker easier process than starting from an original idea.

[kach22i]

I've been reading threads in the boatdesign.net forum for a few years, discovered some flexible planking (foam/glass composite in which resin can be added) which eliminates the need for the stringers running over templates or spars (as in balsa wood airplane model). Seems like it would be idea process for building a one off car shell.

There is of course other skin materials, flexible foams (Z-Plex), balsa core materials with glass fabric one side only and so forth, lots of choices. The making of cross sectional templates would be the easy part, in school we called them "Serial Models" but nothing under that tag line doing a Google search.

Boat Hull Construction photo:
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...3675-Norseboat
Dsc00002.jpg

The idea that it's easier to start with something and add on to or cut into is a valid one. It will never be lighter than from scratch, but there are far more advantages than I can list.

Aerodynamic tail cones and pick up truck cap/cabs using all sorts of methods and materials in this link: http://ecomodder.com/forum/aerodynamics.html

When I was 21, I told one of my college housemates (over a beer) that by the time I was 35 I would have built a three wheel car of my own design. Well 30 years later and no 3-wheeled car or even 4-wheel car of my own design in my driveway. Only a house filled with foam and clay models of unbuilt transportation dreams. Time and money never seem to coincide, but perhaps one day they will. Gotta have a dream, life is more fun that way.

I'll check out the http://www.madmechanics.com/ link. The Duff car seems to change colors depending which article you read, and never seems to have the information you would expect. Maybe it is another balloon boy story in the making. There is a car magazine author of the same name, but I don't think it's the same guy. There is something fishy about it, time will tell.

EDIT: Interesting..........................
http://www.madmechanics.com/general-...in-yahoo-news/

http://www.madmechanics.com/build-di...9;ve-asked-for

EDIT-2:
I rented the movie Tucker last summer, if you want to get inspired and a little depressed at the same time watch it.

[thebeerbaron]

If you haven't read the relevant portions of my design blog where I made a clay model as my entry to the FFR/GRM design competition, I'll give you a short synopsis:

Clay is hard.

I've been doing ceramics for about a decade, off and on. Started in college (art major), picked it back up after grad school, it keeps me sane. The plastic clay that designers use is completely different than the clay I'm used to working with. It was a long and difficult road to get the model finished and the result was not perfect. Getting a perfect clay surface is as olpro notes, a matter of having or making the right tools. Lots and lots and lots of them.

Symmetry, smoothness, and crisp edges are all hard to achieve as an amateur (or better-than-amateur) with clay. I don't want to say CAD is easy, but worrying about slight surface imperfections just doesn't happen with CAD.

Smart money, if you want to do your own body, is on learning the right CAD program and figuring out how to go from the program to the real world.

Artists and custom car makers from the 1960's and 1970's like George Barris, Dick Dean, Ed Roth and many others did "one-offs" all the time. This was in an era before 3D computer drawing programs and CNC milling. So how did they do it?

Talent. Experience. Experimentation. Trial and error. Etc. These guys weren't trading stocks by day and building cars as a lark after work, this was what they did, day in and day out (IIRC - my history on custom cars is abysmal). As much as we'd all like to be able to do something like this, sometimes realizing that you're way out of your league is a good lesson. I'm not saying that's the case here, just throwing that out there.

Also, some of these cars looked great but weren't really usable machines. IIRC these guys used paint as a structural element in a lot of cases.

[olpro]

I had posted these images before but will put them up again for this thread. They cover scale model armature construction and tools. The idea is to create a model setup which will allow for some accuracy to a drawing and decent symmetry. The layout drawing should be done to the same scale for easy translation back and forth.
IRSpg12_0002copy.jpg
IRSpg12_0001copy.jpg
IRSpg12copy.jpg
Clayarmature.jpg

[olpro]

Note the clay model in this pix, on its modeling board. This is Roman, with his mini garbage truck concept.
al&roman.jpgIn the background you can see the layout drawings - three views (side, plan and split front/rear) done on gridded vellum with black map tape for easy modification. Tape drawings are a standard technique in the auto studio, although some what less in this digital world.

[mekeys]

I am posting these pictures to show that you don't really need expensive computers etc. to build mock-ups. Over the years in the late 50's and early 60's I was involved with several full size projects. All done before computers were around. And without ship curves. Done the old fashion way "EYEBALL" They were done in four different ways. One was just to finish a plaster mock-up. And one I did a full size drawing and cut the stations from plywood and then screened it and put plaster on it and finished it with a lacquer finish. And the Bounty Hunter dune buggy mock-up was strickly by eye. One was by using existing sheet metal fenders,hood and trunk lid from a 53 Studebaker welded together and filling in the gaps with screen wire and plaster.

Mel Keys

[armstrom]

There are some good build diaries out there showing what is involved in making a plug, pulling molds and finally production parts. Here are two that I followed years ago:
http://www.grabercars.com/content/category/2/9/42/
http://www.desicodesign.com/meerkat/Bodywork%201.htm

Enjoy

[Dave Smith]

FFR is pretty good at chasiss work and the body shapes we've done to date are pretty good. Truth is that the 818 project(s) hinge SO much on great body shapes/designs that we are really taking several directions with CAD printing, clay modeling, and yes, the old fashioned hand shaping. More to report soon enough.

[thebeerbaron]

C'mon Dave, have you learned nothing here on the forum? There's no such thing as "soon enough" for this flock of vultures!

[Dave Smith]

copy that roger beer baron.

[Niburu]

C'mon Dave, have you learned nothing here on the forum? There's no such thing as "soon enough" for this flock of vultures!

A group of vultures is called a wake, committee, or venue.

[thebeerbaron]

I knew I should have looked it up. I love that a group of crows is called a "murder". Apologies to all.

[kach22i]

http://www.desicodesign.com/meerkat/Bodywork%201.htm

Nice link, went to the end page:

http://www.desicodesign.com/meerkat/Assembly.htm

The assembly phase

This is the part were I'll actually do the final assembly (figuratively of course). Had it been a kit this would be the first page

From what I can tell.

1. Mock-up is built.

2. Molds are made off of the mock-up.

3. Gel-coated the molds, hand laid some fiberglass.

4. The assembly phase

[olpro]

http://deansgarage.com/2009/ron-kell...cial/#comments
This is a great website and this particular page is of interest to anyone wanting to make their own body.

[mekeys]

http://deansgarage.com/2009/ron-kell...cial/#comments
This is a great website and this particular page is of interest to anyone wanting to make their own body.

That type 59 Bugatti concept,is one Fantastic work of ART.....I bookmarked it too..

Mel Keys

[kach22i]

Nice site Olpro, I've bookmarked it for later study.

[acmonster]

This topic keeps getting me thinking, how great would it be if we were all able to design and construct our own bodies, to our own liking, on top of a reliable and strong frame? One thought is plastic. There are 3D printers now that are capable of printing anything in ABS plastic. With a good design and a 3D printer that can cover a larger area (think large scale CNC machine with a 3D Print head) anyone should be able to construct their own custom body. They are working on this in the 'Urbee' project.

[Cooluser23]

This topic keeps getting me thinking, how great would it be if we were all able to design and construct our own bodies, to our own liking, on top of a reliable and strong frame? One thought is plastic. There are 3D printers now that are capable of printing anything in ABS plastic. With a good design and a 3D printer that can cover a larger area (think large scale CNC machine with a 3D Print head) anyone should be able to construct their own custom body. They are working on this in the 'Urbee' project.

Tell me if you find one at an affordable price. I've looked about a year ago and gave up..

[Cooluser23]

I saw the Urbee at Sema. It's made from sections of ABS plastic and the cost is unaffordably expensive. They just happen to be sponsored by Dimension, makers of 3D printers.

[acmonster]

Are you saying the cost of the plastic is unaffordably expensive or the process? You can buy a MakerBot 3D Printer for $1200 new, but would have to DIY it some to work on a larger project. I'm sure it could be done. people are having their 3D printers make new fully functioning 3D printers. I love the idea, of having a device build parts to better itself or replicate itself.

[olpro]

Thanks for that link to Urbee. If is interesting to see what some people are trying to do with technology and I had not heard of that particular organization.
Unfortunately, the whole 3D printer technology is largely overrated by the general press because current printers are not capable of making such large objects (I think that RISD is using 3D printing but having to assemble numerous elements even for a ¼ scale car model). Also the printing medium is not structurally sound enough to do anything other than fragile appearance models (and a start for casting tooling models).
On the other hand, the NC milling processes ALREADY in full operation can build large models, up to 50’ boats. A car size plug is easy for some of these machines. There are also numerous small companies that can mill smaller elements which can be assembled for a full size car plug.
NC milling is a far better answer than 3D printing and has major advantages which it will retain with larger mold sizes.
The 3D printing process still has the advantage for highly detailed small parts (an instrument binnacle would be a perfect project).

The fabric bodies mentioned by Kach22 in another thread are still the most interesting approach to me. (I used to make elaborate cardboard and paper mockups when I was working at GM Design Staff - I did entire front ends of Buicks in cardstock which were good enough for design evaluation so I know there is a lot of potential with this kind of simple media).
The BMW Gina http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTYiEkQYhWY outlines the possibilities for fabric bodies and is an interesting project. However, it doesn’t explore the real possibilities that WE could utilize as much as the fabric covered aircraft, boats and cars of a much earlier era do. I am a fan of WW-I and Golden Age airplanes - fabric covered contraptions capable of high speeds, exceeding 200 mph. They didn’t use the highly flexible Lycra like the Gina but rather other fabrics with much greater strength and durability. Butyrate and Nitrate dopes were used on these fabrics but modern materials are better and far less flammable and more UV resistant.
I suppose the fabric could be a stretch material without treatment and would allow more radical forms than stiffer fabrics. The other end of the scale would be to use the fabric as a BASE upon which to spray on chopped glass - pull off the result to use as a part (or as a mold). Hopefully a matte finish would be acceptable with such a process because a gloss finish would be hard to achieve.
The tooling would be subtly bent tubing over which the fabric could be stretched. The interesting possibilities for interiors, seating and convertible tops can be factored in, further enhancing the potential of fabric.
I have priced out the cost of NC milling (in foam or clay) for an auto body and the fabric approach is really interesting as a low cost option.
If the body is stretch fabric, then the tube frame would have to be carried underneath it. If this is just a step in the body tooling process then the car becomes much more like current fiberglass technology.
I don’t know much about spraying chopped glass parts but am interested in looking at possible shapes that might be possible with fabric.

[305mouse]

I want a Carbon Fiber body, let's just do that instead of the gel coat. Too bad the body would be as much as the kit if not more.

[kach22i]

I want a Carbon Fiber body, let's just do that instead of the gel coat. Too bad the body would be as much as the kit if not more.

The clear coat to protect Carbon Fiber form UV rays is something like $2,000 a gallon. It is similar to the epoxy used on electronic pcb boards as I understand it.

[olpro]

The one thing (mentioned in my last post) is using chopped/sprayed glass rather than a layup (I assume FFR does layups and plans on doing that for the 818). Newport Composites does the Manx bodies (with gel coat) and they are chopped glass. Their quality is quite good too. I presume the weight is higher vs layups but the cost is much lower. Anyone know more about this? http://www.newportlaminates.com/intro.html

[kach22i]

Almost every Kit Car magazine article I've read dealing with chopped glass was the spray on type, and hated by the author of the articles. Too heavy, uneven thickness, weakness and so forth. Maybe the opinions were so sharp because the articles I recall were for Porsche 356 Speedster replicas.

The old Starship hovercraft out of Canada is reported to have used a chopper gun to form the hull. It is regarded to be to heavy to be a good performer even with modern engines and fans.

http://www.decastris.com/hcc/builder...p/starship.htm

Olpro, do you know Dave Strollery by any chance (see link, 2nd paragraph)? Looks like a fun job, some nice work shown.
http://www.newportlaminates.com/design.html

[olpro]

Stollery? Oh my gawd!
I worked with Stollery at GM Design Staff until he went to form CALTY design (Toyota's US design facility - the first of the many foreign car studios on the Left coast). He was a crazy guy who loved to play pranks on people and a quite talented designer. He was famous as MARTY of Spin & Marty, if you remember your Mickey Mouse Club facts.
http://www.sacredclassics.com/spin_mar.htm
When I was at Nissan Design in San Diego I would run into him at design events, car shows, etc. Dave teaches at Art Center and I have worked with him on a project or two - he as the instructor, me as rep for the corp. sponsor (Nissan). Together we would formulate student project assignments although I would only visit the school four or five times during the term. I could go on and on about him, a very entertaining and cool guy.

[kach22i]

He was famous as MARTY of Spin & Marty, if you remember your Mickey Mouse Club facts.
http://www.sacredclassics.com/spin_mar.htm

Five years before I was born, but looks like an interesting era and program.

I've read and been told that the world of car designers is a small one, and when I read "Art College of Art and Design - Pasadena", thought for sure you knew him or of him.

[mekeys]

After being discharged from the Air Force in 1954 I went to "The Art Center" at that time it was on 5353 west third street.I took transportation class and Strother Mac Minn was my instructer.I only went there three years.Those years were the best time of my life because all us guys were all interested in the same thing "CARS"
I was saddened to learn that Mac Minn passed away in 1998..

[olpro]

It's a small world. Although I didn't go to Art Center, I know lots of people who did. Most of them talk about MacMinn. He truly was a master of the pencil drawing, plus he had a great sense of form.
http://deansgarage.com/2009/sports-c...nn/?show=slide

[ron stebles]

The dune buggy looks to be a plug for the bounty hunter which was produced by Brian Dries in Burbank and then the Deserter on the east coast. I built a bunch of those in the late 60's. I worked with Brian at a couple of companies.


Ron

[mekeys]

The dune buggy looks to be a plug for the bounty hunter which was produced by Brian Dries in Burbank and then the Deserter on the east coast. I built a bunch of those in the late 60's. I worked with Brian at a couple of companies.


Ron

If you are refering to the Bounty Hunter mock-up in this thread..I am the designer.Brian and I were supposed to be partners he just helped me with the work on the plug. after we sold a few buggies he made a couple of small changes and went into business for himself.He made the headlights bigger and added a buldge on the hood and also changed the front end design under the nose a little.I have to give Brian credit for creating the side pods and a top..

google Mel Keys

[D2W]

Mel you were not only around but involved in the very beginnings of the kit car industry. Any interesting stories? Who were some of the people you worked with? I've always thought the history of the "kit car" was fascinating. I loved what some of the early guys did, both good and bad.

[mekeys]

Mel you were not only around but involved in the very beginnings of the kit car industry. Any interesting stories? Who were some of the people you worked with? I've always thought the history of the "kit car" was fascinating. I loved what some of the early guys did, both good and bad.

To read all about the early days of fiberglass kit cars go to.

www.forgottenfiberglass.com

Mel Keys

[olpro]

That looks like a great website. Thanks.

[mekeys]

That looks like a great website. Thanks.

To see how extensive the site is be sure and click Article Archive.
Mel

[olpro]

As long as we are on a nostalgia kick, here is a link to Art Fitzpatrick who painted those amazing Pontiac ads back in the day – before the Photoshop era so popular today. I have seen some of the original artworks and they are quite small. A guy named Van Kaufmann did the backgrounds which are also fantastic.
http://www.fitz-art.com/

[kach22i]

http://www.fitz-art.com/

An incredible body of work.