Project Question and Answer with Rhode Island School of Design's Michael Lye

[Dave Smith]

Guys,

Mr Beer Baron (Peter) had an idea and thought it would be cool to do some Q&A with the man behind the modeling effort of the 818, Michael Lye. Michael was one of the design Judges and his team of artists at RISD (Rhode Island School of Design) is currently turning third-place winner Xabiers car into a 1/4 scale model, from which we will be scanning and scaling for a full size vehicle. Beer Baron had the following questions. If you guys have any, you can post them here. Michael will handle the shaping/design questions an I can jump in with anything outside that scope...

Questions for Michael Lye

1. Can you tell us a bit about the teams you have working on these models? I understand these are RISD students, but that is a broad pool of talent from which to select. Are these students modeling experts, design gurus, car nuts, or something else entirely?

2. There have been some hints that at least one, if not two clay models will be designs we haven't seen yet or designs that didn't score a contest win. What gave the unnamed designs the "pop" that made the team decide to model them? Who had input into these selections? (And since I'll guess that you had some input, what personally drew you towards these designs?)

3. In translating drawings and renderings to clay, there are obviously going to be some areas where the modelers must take some artistic license with the original design. In the designs we know reached clay (Nouphone Bansasi and Xabier Albizu), what areas required extra attention or refinement by your team? Were you given the freedom to refine areas that were well-defined but not aesthetically pleasing to your team?

4. The paint-free gel-coat body of the 818 adds an extra challenge to the design process. Can you explain the compromises necessary to accommodate this special body? Has it driven design decisions in unexpected directions?

5. You have partnered with big names like NASA, Sikorsky, Intel, and Maytag. (from your RISD webpage) Do you find a small, passion-driven business like Factory Five to be a different experience? Do you find yourself giving art lessons or receiving engineering lessons?

6. The biography you provided for the contest reveals that you own and enjoy driving a Lotus Europa. Given the Europa's polarizing looks are you sure you can be trusted with this design?

[Dave Smith]

I can answer question 2: We are making models of the top three designs. RISD crew are doing one at a time and have started with Xabiers design. We are also doing the first place winner on computer printing 3-d. There are four designs in total we are doing in 1/4 scale but starting with the first and third place cars that should be ready for viewing in a few weeks.

I think this is crucial (design review) and the forum here will be instrumental in helping to select the cars we will make (roadster, Coupe and track car)... That's right, we want three bodies for three dedicated purposes and I believe a 1/4 scale model in real life will give us direction better than drawings. I would prefer to do three full-size cars, but the scale models are fast to do, give a realistic estimate of the real car, and can be rapidly scanned and scaled and go to production.

Dave

Dave Smith

[NicksPapaw]

During the design process, is any wind tunnel testing done, or, does the team only concentrate on shape, fit, and function and leave the aero testing to Dave and crew?

[riptide motorsport]

This is too cool!!!!!!!

Question: Can you make the modelers work double and swing shifts. .........I want it now!!!

[Dave Smith]

The wind tunnel was used twice on the GTM and that was for specific testing of downforce. In the case of the 818, one of the three variants is a high-mileage capable (60+ mpg) vehicle and frontal area and drag will be the big challenge with drag something we can do flow analysis on Solidworks software for the bulk, or at least they say we can do that. The performance version sports car in it's racing trim may be a good candidate for downforce testing as the car is already lightweight and the current designs do appear to lend themselves to spoilers/airfolw management.... still, to answer your question directly, none of the designs have been tested (nor will they likely be tested) in a windtunnel, with software being the only likely tool before full body shapes are made.

[D2W]

Has it already been decided which car will be the track car, which one will be the roadster ect? Will the track car be street legal, lights possibility of a full windshield ect.

Edit: ah, I just noticed in you're second post the term "performance car in racing trim". See how easy it is to let the cat out of the bag.

[slopoke]

Is the track car going to be a coupe based on its propensity to be more aerodynamic?

[Doc_FFR]

Any hope for a street Xabier?
Is everything still on track for the Las Vegas Sema show?
When is the name going to be announced?
When am I going to get my T-shirt?
Is the number one design going to be modified, or is it about the same as we saw?

[kach22i]

6. The biography you provided for the contest reveals that you own and enjoy driving a Lotus Europa. Given the Europa's polarizing looks are you sure you can be trusted with this design?

Funny stuff.

[Flamshackle]

Dave will you be making the car RHD for the euro and Australian/NZ interest with it being a "world car"? Maybe make use of the donor dash board also?

That would definitely reduce costs and make RHD conversion a piece of cake for the interior of the car for us non LHD countries

Thanks...

[Michael Lye]

Hi everyone. I'm looking forward to answering some of your questions and giving you a bit of an update on the state of the model. I'll start with the first ones from Beer Baron and then do my best to keep up with any new ones. So on to the Q+A:

1. I've got a very talented team of Industrial Design (ID) students from RISD working on the 818 model. Two of them (Will and Oleg) just graduated and one (Stephanie) will be a senior in the fall. As Industrial Designers, they've worked on a wide variety of projects at RISD, including things like product design, furniture, even NASA spacecraft and habitat design projects. They've got excellent drawing, modeling and fabrication skills. So I'd say they're designers first, modelers second, and car nuts a close third. When I asked them how they would respond, they liked the "something else entirely" the best. I think I heard the word "crazy" mentioned in there as well but perhaps that was just my imagination! But they're working their fingers to the bones trying to get the first model done and doing a great job. I'll try to post a picture of the crew if I can figure out how.

2. Dave's answered this one already so I'll move on to the next one.

3. Going from 2D to 3D can be challenging but we're starting from some excellent renderings by Xabier. I wouldn't say we're taking artistic license with the original design as much as we're trying to capture the feel of the renderings in 3-dimensions. There are places in the original design that need interpretation though. Some curves don't really flow in 3D they way they might look in a drawing. There are other places where even though the design intent is clear, parts don't quite match between different views. For example, the lip of the spoiler is significantly higher in the rear views than it is in the side view. So we need to find a way to keep the right feeling but reconcile the different views. Although there are plenty of opportunities to inject our aesthetics into the model we're really trying to make sure the model represents the design that so many like.

4. For now, the paint free gel-coat hasn't had a big impact on what we need to do. There are a few places that would be difficult to mold they way they are now - for example between the rollbar housing and the fairings behind the seats. We'll need to take a look at places like that to see what might need to be done. First though we have to get the model looking just right.

5. I see you've done some research Beer Baron! Actually working with Factory Five is a lot of fun. Yes, they're smaller than some of the other organizations I've worked with and - as any of you who've met Dave know - they're very passionate about what they do. But I've been very fortunate to work with a lot of passionate people at the larger organizations, too. So in that sense it's fairly similar working with FFR. On the other hand it's great to work with the people that have direct control of the end product and are able to make things happen really quickly with a minimum of (or really no) bureaucracy. The 818 may not happen as quickly as all of you'd like but it's moving pretty fast compared to things at NASA for example, where 10 years might elapse between a first concept and the actual design flying. For the second part of that question, I haven't been giving too many art lessons except to my students, but I enjoy picking up engineering concepts. I think Jim, Jesper and Dave have a pretty good eye for the aesthetics of cars.

6. As to the polarizing design of the Lotus Europa, I think every bread van should look so good! Seriously, despite some awkward angles there are some really good views of the Europa and the best is probably from behind the steering wheel. But I'll do my best to make sure the model looks good from all angles. You'll all soon have a chance to judge how we've done for yourselves though. I hope it will meet your expectations. I know Dave won't accept anything but the best for the 818.

Hope that answers most of your questions. Let me know if you've got more.

Thanks for the opportunity to add my $.02.

[Michael Lye]

Riptide, as much as I'd like to make them work harder, I promised them they wouldn't have to pull any all-nighters. And even though they could do it, I'm not sure I can anymore! We'll get there soon though.

[Michael Lye]

During the design process, is any wind tunnel testing done, or, does the team only concentrate on shape, fit, and function and leave the aero testing to Dave and crew?

As Dave mentioned wind tunnel testing is not likely to occur on the models. Unfortunately RISD doesn't have one and I'd really have to twist a few arms (or come up with some big cash) to use one of the nearby tunnels. Would be fun in the future though. So we're concentrating on translating the design into 3-dimensions while trying make sure that it can be made easily and look great.

[thebeerbaron]

As to the polarizing design of the Lotus Europa, I think every bread van should look so good!

Michael, your responses were great but this one made me laugh out loud! Kudos to you and your team and thanks for casting a little light on the process!

[Michael Lye]

I thought I'd add a photo of the RISD team working on the 1:4 scale clay model.
RISD Team.jpg

That's Will on the right, Oleg in the middle and Stephanie on the left. Hopefully you figured that last one out though. And unfortunately I didn't quite get the model in the frame. Sorry!

[NicksPapaw]

Michael, one more question for the night. Would you PLEASE go back and take another picture? This time, point the camera a little lower and to the right. As that appears to be where the model resides. I just added the last sentence for clarification so......ahem....... I wouldn't be mistakenly asking for a full frontal of Will. Not that he isn't a fine looking young man. lol

[305mouse]

I can't wait to see how you incorporate airflow to the TMIC in the design. In the grand scheme of things, this project is moving along very quickly.

[Flamshackle]

I will just move the intercooler to a better place and duct it differently. My massive intercooler core wont fit on top I dare say

[Niburu]

Michael, one more question for the night. Would you PLEASE go back and take another picture? This time, point the camera a little lower and to the right.

I was thinking more to the left and lower
but my motivation might be a bit different than yours

[Silvertop]

Well, Dave has done another masterful job or providing us with just enough new information to keep us salivating without giving away too many secrets.......

We now know that Rodney Olmos' Second Place design is one of the four chosen for 1/4 scale clay modeling, along with versions of the other two top contest winners. That is good news, since it is a very attractive design. We still really don't know which design might be used for which application, though an earlier post by Dave elsewhere on the forum seems to indicate that Nouphone Bansasi's first place winner will be presented as a coupe, and it is likely that Xabier's will be presented as the track car, per earlier comments by Dave, and also per Michael Lye's reference above to issues with modeling the rear spoiler (the street version was not drawn with a spoiler).

No real way to determine what's going on with the Olmos design, except by process of elimination, but I think I'll avoid that.... So I can avoid being wrong!

The really fun mystery is 1/4 scale model #4, which I suspect will be held close to the vest until the model is completed and revealed.

Thanks for the input from the Michael Lye of RISD. It's nice to see how that process works. BeerBaron, congratulations on providing a great set of questions.

Can't wait to see the reveal on the first two models. I AM salivating, and my checkbook has an itch...........

[Dave Smith]

I can address some of this. Without exception I am trying to stick to our development plan as people usually are happy when you do what you say you are going to do. I am really late on getting the gallery of images up online and updating the website, but the actual car project is going to schedule. When we launched the concept and contest it was at our Feb 18 Winter Open House. The design contest ran to our Sum mer Open House, afterwards I said we would execute on scale models of the designs we felt, based on the submissions AND feedback from customers, within the next few months. We are actually cheating on the scale models because I decided to hedge my bets and do some full-size shaping, AND some CAD based 3-d printing of models to augment the RISD effort. That effort, is on-going and Michaels team is doing a great job.

Michael, I would love to have you share the photos of the previous models and transition work on the transport project you showed me.

With respect to the actual cars it is a tough thing to talk about before actually showing folks the 1/4 scale models and work in a complete or semi-complete way. I said before that I am absolutely convinced that this chassis can serve (like a swatch watch) three distinct and separate markets. Those different cars will share the 818 underpinnings (chassis, suspension to the most part) but look very different.

I want to unveil three (with a secret 4th) designs in 1/4 scale model form so that you guys can evaluate the designs in real life touch, feel, look at in proportions that will be only scale away from reality. Maybe one of the three will stink, maybe one will be a rock star, but I think the reception will affect many things, like the model we launch first, whether or not we go back to another design, or maybe modify one that is close.

The cars we are doing are the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place cars with a surprise 4th (and IF I can afford it, a surprise 5th that I alone love). The work here ion interiors and the tech tips on the subie stuff is so great!

I think we are close to showing the work for you guys to evaluate. The models will be coupled with real hard data on the vehicles, the cost, the running gear, etc. This way you guys will step in after the design contest and help winnow the focus further.

[Dave Smith]

Seeing the real-world shaping reminds me of a few things about "drawings and concepts". First is the obvious and that is the design in real 3-d space always looks different than the Foose sketch. Sometimes big and sometimes small differences, but never the same. Another thing is that the involvement of group design and feedback is one of the great challenges of the modern "social networking" times. Structuring the feedback to stages and focusing on the right group (Grassroots motorsports racers and FFR customers rather than general public) is something I feel is important. I have seen Jim and our guys at FFR IGNORE customers feedback because they knew the stage observed was not complete and didnt present all the data. On the other hand, our success at FFR is directly due to listening to the feedback and incorporating ideas from customers as we have constantly improved our designs. The GTM was a customers idea. There are many many miore examples of legitimate, directed, thoughtful collaboration with customers and FFR that make other "crowd-sourcing" companies look ridiculous as they listen to any joe on a facebook page, irrespective of time, talent, or whether the person has a skin in the game.

In FFR product development, I like to think that we completely ignore people and yet fanatically listen to customers.

[thebeerbaron]

Michael - going with the gist of some of the questions here, is your team giving thought to realities like radiator and intercooler ducting and placement, or are you only focussing on modeling what has been drawn? I think I know the answer, just want it from the horse's mouth.

[Oppenheimer]

I guess this question is to Dave. It seems many had the impression (from your comments) that the design contest was not necessarily linked to the body design(s) that would become the 818. Yet 3 of the 4 designs going into modeling are the 3 design contest winners.

Are these really your (Dave and/or Jim’s) top 3 picks (that you feel FFR clientele would find most appealing)? What was your reasoning in choosing these 3 as the designs to model?

[Doc_FFR]

Any hope for a street Xabier?

I think many of us are wondering this.

[kach22i]

In FFR product development, I like to think that we completely ignore people and yet fanatically listen to customers.

I'm pretty sure I like what this means.

Provocative statement in any case.

[Silvertop]

I'm pretty sure I like what this means.

Provocative statement in any case.

Yes, I'm pretty sure I like it too -- depending of course, on the particular species in which Dave thinks FFR customers belong.........

[Dave Smith]

Customers are car guys, enthusiasts, friends, people who want great things out of life and are willing to work for them, racers, mechanics and craftsmen, scientific minded, mature, capable and the people we've been lucky to attract over 15 years of building fast cars.


"Are these really your (Dave and/or Jim’s) top 3 picks (that you feel FFR clientele would find most appealing)? What was your reasoning in choosing these 3 as the designs to model"

I have been reluctant to commit to any designs in the up front stage even more so because while the contest needed focus, I wanted a wide variety of concepts to look at since I was from the beginning seeing this chassis as three cars in one capable. Its weird as a project grows, how your ideas and hopes and fears either get magnified or fade. In this case my worries, the few that I had, are non-existent, and my excitement and optimism is growing tremendously. I am very very excited about the budgets Ive seen on shaping and the speed and capability of our shapers and cad technology. What I mean is that I think body shaping will be faster, less expensive, and easier than I thought. This means the flexibility on designs is greater.

I guess to answer the question, while we saw some other cool designs, we figured it would be wise and respectful to start with the designs that won, or make close derivatives of them.

At the end of the day I know that the single largest, most important factor on this project is that the car has to look stunning. Im not being cocky here, rather Ive seen the chasiss, understand the weight and balance of the car, know costing, know operational issues and supplier matters, and have thought thru all the rest of the car. The only challenge is the body shape and I am spending huge capital (that is scarce right now) to ensre that this development process nets a body shape (or three) that make you willing to sell your children or take a swing at your mom in order to drive...

[Dave Smith]

btw Huge thanks to the baron for his ideas on Michael Lye Q&A.

[Kempo]

that make you willing to sell your children or take a swing at your mom in order to drive...

LOL, Now this is a quote I plan to use in the future.

[Pierre B]

Lotus Europa may be aesthetically polarizing to some, but the first time I saw one in the late sixties, I ran four city blocks in Syracuse just to find out what the thing was. It was twenty years or so later that I eventually bought one (Series S2), which I enjoyed for fifteen years. Fussy little thing but lots of fun. More to the point, though, the Europa design went from initial design conception to production in 18 months! Dave, the clock is ticking... so make Colin Chapman and all of us proud. Of course, as with all things worth doing, better done well than quickly. I have no doubt we will see fantastic (to use a term that's overused by F1 pilots) results. Can't wait.

[ScottKoschwitz]

The Europa was the first Lotus I ever drove, and I agree that the best view is from the driver's seat. I mean this in the sense that the cockpit is comfortable, the view out the front allows you to know exactly where the corners of the car are, and the view out the back (with the rear glass so close to you) is probably the best out of a sports car. I would love if FFR could accomplish that with the 818.

[D2W]

Dave, what do you see as the difference between the roadster and the track car? I'm guessing they will use the same drivetrain, chassis, suspension. And you said the track car will be registerable for the street so it will get a windshield. A full cage? simpler body, no doors? no top?

[ScottKoschwitz]

Good questions. 've been mulling those over myself.

Dave, earlier in another thread, I suggested a dedicated 818 open house, or making the 818 the focus of the winter open house, to show the models and discuss the development with the 818 groupies. Would you consider doing that?

[Ks2]

first off this is an awesome thread and says alot about the company, these are questions more for dave

can we expect alot of options and additional extras available? i know the base price starts at under 10k but there is alot i wouldnt mind paying a bit extra for to set my particular 818 apart especially if they can come in the kit ready to bolt in.

also is there plans to make the exterior panels easy (well atleast possible in an afternoon) to change out? i personally like the idea of buying an additional exterior and having my race car for the weekend then switching the panels out to something with a roof for cruising during the week. with the possibility of 5? or more bodies and if they can be easily changed, you could almost have a different car each day of the week (atleast on the outside)

[PhyrraM]

I have long stated that the 818 should be a modern Europa of sorts. Polarizing styling or not, the 818 - like the Europa before it - should be a declaration of what is possible with ho-hum everyday off the shelf parts and a bit of creative assembly.

[olpro]

I don’t race, or pretend to know anything at all about it, but it seems to me to be a bad idea to change bodies from day to day on a car, for racing on the weekend and cruising/commuting during the week.
I would assume that the race version, with its extreme engine tune, fraction-of-an-inch ground clearance, highly specialized tires, rock hard suspension, etc. is going to make a temperamental and completely unsuitable street car. I don’t personally enjoy being left high and dry on the side of the freeway by an unreliable vehicle.
If I wanted to race, I would want a fully competitive machine, not some jack-of-all trades thingy that does nothing well.
I can see removable or additive panels, to save weight or provide downforce aerodynamics, on a basic platform which would allow me some flexibility. But the change-the-whole-body idea doesn’t look feasible to me.
Am I wrong?

[Hankl]

I don’t race, or pretend to know anything at all about it, but it seems to me to be a bad idea to change bodies from day to day on a car, Am I wrong?

I think your wrong in your assumption that some one would buy this to change the body, like you change shoes. It's all about a standard platform, that can have different bodies based on its final configuration. You would not build a street car to compete in racing and vice a versa.

Hank

[Cooluser23]

Will any effort be made towards cool interior design?
If so, will there be different trim levels? (i.e. track version, street version)

(which uses factory Subie components if necessary)

[olpro]

I think your wrong in your assumption that some one would buy this to change the body, like you change shoes. It's all about a standard platform, that can have different bodies based on its final configuration. You would not build a street car to compete in racing and vice a versa.

Hank

But that is exactly what is being suggested in post #35.