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Thread: My Official GTM Build Thread!

  1. #721
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    Looks fantastic!

  2. #722
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbksv View Post
    What did you use for the glass trim? I have a 33 HR and I just installed it the way the manual has without any trim ..but I think it looks like crap.
    Sorry about the delay, I forgot to answer this.

    It's made by Flexi-Trim, PN# FT1630-75

    16mm, 5/8" channel
    Brother Jim! I can't really gauge the acceleration as the car hasn't been aligned or tuned properly. I've been working out some bugs
    with the EVAC system and bumping up the Air / Fuel ratio for the end of the season.

    For the handful of times that I punched the throttle, it was very
    Impressive. Lots of torque off idle and the 1st gear ratio helps
    to rip apart the tires fairly easily.

    I'd say we would have a lot of fun crusing around.
    Custom LCD Gauges , Data Loggers, Control Touch Screens
    www.LCDdash.com \\ 647-522-9953 \\ Voice & Text
    Proud new owner of GTM Gen 1., #105 - 08/27/11
    LQ9 Powered, G96.00 6 speed transaxle

  3. #723
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procision-Auto View Post
    Sorry about the delay, I forgot to answer this.



    Brother Jim! I can't really gauge the acceleration as the car hasn't been aligned or tuned properly. I've been working out some bugs
    with the EVAC system and bumping up the Air / Fuel ratio for the end of the season.

    For the handful of times that I punched the throttle, it was very
    Impressive. Lots of torque off idle and the 1st gear ratio helps
    to rip apart the tires fairly easily.

    I'd say we would have a lot of fun crusing around.
    I'm looking forward to it. Open house this June!!!!!

  4. #724
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    No love from the GTM after many failed attempts and ideas to start the motor. I've ruled out a few items that I thought would contribute to laboured starts including additional grounds between the engine/frame, parallel batteries for more current, and even a dedicated battery
    from a running vehicle to power the starter itself.This yielded the best result, however not enough to spin the motor fast enough.

    starter.jpg

    My next step is to remove the transaxle. This is something I planned on doing anyway, so it's not a huge deal. I have noticed that the gear
    shift is a bit sluggish, but I've attributed that to cold gear oil. Perhaps with the transaxle out of the way I'll be able to reduce any drag from
    the input shaft and other internals.

    Worst case the engine has to be torn down to inspect the bearings, but everything turns freely with a breaker bar on the crank bolt. As
    mentioned above, the wheels spin when leaving the transmission in gear and turning the crank by hand. It doesn't feel like anything is
    seized.

    So confused over what seems to be such a simple task. I can't think of anything that would have caused this to happen before shutting down
    for the last time.

    Welcome to building cars, right?
    Last edited by LCD Gauges; 01-05-2016 at 08:15 PM.
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  5. #725
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    After some testing, the problem has been narrowed down to
    insufficient grounding between the battery and starter.

    My GTM came partially built with the battery installed via
    a stainless steel braid from the negative terminal to the frame.
    It has been working up until changing starters so I never thought
    it would be an issue, and I've since learned the braids are only
    good for about 162 Amps.

    Considering this is the only electrical 'return' path for all circuits,
    the quick math shows that the strap is limiting current for cranking.

    At a minimum the electrical system requires the PCM, coils,
    injectors, sensors, fuel pump, gauges, start soln, and start motor
    to be energized all at once.

    That pretty much maxes out the braid if you consider the starter needs
    about 180 amps initial peak current and about 100 amps continuous
    current to start the engine.

    That leaves a mere 65 Amps for all other systems listed.

    The new PowerMaster starter is a 1.2 kilowatt , 1.3 HP motor. At 12.5 volts,
    the current draw is 96 Amps (P = I *E); the instantaneous current can
    peak higher (upwards of 180+ amps) on initial crank.


    I should run a dedicated ground wire from the
    battery terminal to the starter housing. In all automotive wiring that I’ve
    seen (correct me if I’m wrong), the battery positive AND negative go to the
    starter, and then the frame is tied from the motor and/or the battery as well.


    While watching the video note the changes in setup. I’ve installed a fuse to
    illustrate the amount of current drawn while cranking. Even though the fuse
    is rated for 250 Amps, it chokes the circuit. This was something I’ve always
    wondered – how a tiny fuse conductor can handle so much current with such
    a small cross section. The results surprised me!



    www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYM2M7zjG-k

    The temperature of the fuse hardly changed. The biggest delta was about
    4’C throughout all the engine starts. Keep in mind the wire is rated for 90’C
    continuous use.
    Last edited by LCD Gauges; 01-09-2016 at 07:32 AM.
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  6. #726
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    Couple of things:

    1. I suspect the braid is not stainless but tinned copper - almost all are - and are meant for these applications. My braid is equivalent to a 2-3 gauge wire.

    2. The current capacity is limited only by when the cable melts (like a fuse). The instantaneous capacity for a transient load (like a starter) is significantly higher than the published steady state limits, and even those published numbers (like ~170A for a 2 gauge cable) are very conservative.

    3. The resistance of a 2 ga wire is 0.5 ohms per 1000 meters, so for a 3 meter starter cable the resistance is only 0.5ohms * 3/1000 = 0.0015 ohms, and the corresponding voltage drop assuming a start current of 500 Amps is only 0.75 volts. If your started only draws 250 Amps thats only a 3/8 volt drop. No problem for the starter.

    So, IMHO - it's not the cables. Much more likely are problems with electrical contact at the frame or starter. A rivnut isn't the best for electrical contact. Much better would be a a drilled hole through the frame with the powder coating removed on the bolt and nut side, and serrated washers to provide good surface area contact. This should be done at the braid-to-frame connection, and at the engine ground-to-frame. Poor contact at the frame can effectively increase your circuit resistance by a factor of 10x-100x or more .... and that will cause problems. Millions of cars use AWG 3, AWG 2, or AWG 0 wire for these applications with no problems whatsoever.

    Good Luck!

    -Michael

  7. #727
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    There is no way the rest of the electrical in your car is using 65 amps on startup, unless you are starting your car with the lights on, a/c full blast, holding the brakes, hazards on, and your radio turned all the way up.

    I agree with RumRunner that you have a bad contact somewhere. The starter pulls its ground through the block, so the block must be grounded very well(sand away the powdercoat and bolt directly to the frame, not a rivnut or self tapping screw. Nut and Bolt.). Same goes for the battery to frame. I would use ought gauge for both.

    Good Luck

  8. #728
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumRunner View Post
    Couple of things:

    1. I suspect the braid is not stainless but tinned copper - almost all are - and are meant for these applications. My braid is equivalent to a 2-3 gauge wire.
    You may be right. After a closer look, the width is 1.5 inches which is closer to 2GA wire capacities according to typical braid specs.

    2. The current capacity is limited only by when the cable melts (like a fuse). The instantaneous capacity for a transient load (like a starter) is significantly higher than the published steady state limits, and even those published numbers (like ~170A for a 2 gauge cable) are very conservative.
    Agreed. The wire spec will never be given for 100% operating capacity; it would be ineffective to design a system that runs within a small window of failure. My guess
    is there is about 20% more headroom allowed as a safety margin. It would be interesting
    to know what the actual figures are!

    3. The resistance of a 2 ga wire is 0.5 ohms per 1000 meters, so for a 3 meter starter cable the resistance is only 0.5ohms * 3/1000 = 0.0015 ohms, and the corresponding voltage drop assuming a start current of 500 Amps is only 0.75 volts. If your started only draws 250 Amps thats only a 3/8 volt drop. No problem for the starter.
    DC resistance of the wire was never in question for such a short run. Your theory
    about poor connection to the frame is most likely the answer. I'll have to remove
    the braid an make sure the paint was scraped away.

    I'll also revisit the Riv-Nut approach. A nice bolt/stud is definitely a better option, but it will require a more discrete location out of sight. After my experiment, running a dedicated ground wire from the battery terminal to the engine block is going to solve
    any electrical issues I've been having.

    Out of interest, this is the wire that I'm using.

    http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/670494.pdf
    wedling_cable.jpg
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  9. #729
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTSCustoms View Post
    There is no way the rest of the electrical in your car is using 65 amps on startup, unless you are starting your car with the lights on, a/c full blast, holding the brakes, hazards on, and your radio turned all the way up.
    I'm curious to know roughly how much is getting drawn on my car. To be fair, there
    are other loads that were not listed. I'm using an electric water pump and the DRL
    lights illuminate as well.

    In the future I plan to have a processor start the water pump after the engine starts.
    For now, it's all wired to one bus.

    As Michael suggested and my experiment showed there is definitely a problem with
    frame connection (method and continuity).

    Thanks for the replies!
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  10. #730
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procision-Auto View Post
    I'm curious to know roughly how much is getting drawn on my car. To be fair, there
    are other loads that were not listed. I'm using an electric water pump and the DRL
    lights illuminate as well.

    In the future I plan to have a processor start the water pump after the engine starts.
    For now, it's all wired to one bus.

    As Michael suggested and my experiment showed there is definitely a problem with
    frame connection (method and continuity).

    Thanks for the replies!
    Keep this in mind. The alternator is not responsible for starting the vehicle. It's job is to charge the battery and run the electrical system once the car is started.

    The battery, on the other hand, has two jobs. They are starting the car, and filtering electrical noise(A/C ripple).

    That being said, your battery is probably rated at 500+ cranking amps, so the only way that a current draw during startup would prevent the car from starting is if you have a bad battery.
    Last edited by MTSCustoms; 01-11-2016 at 11:30 AM.

  11. #731
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    Water pump, not alternator.
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    After sorting out my ground/wiring issues with the new starter, I was able to
    whip up this quick video of the gauges working.


    A bit too late in the season to get real-time road testing, so it will have to wait
    for Spring (only 90 days right?!)!

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  13. #733
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procision-Auto View Post
    Water pump, not alternator.
    I know, I was just adding a point to my previous post. Glad you got it working.

  14. #734
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    After a bit of a lay-off, it's nice to be knee deep in tools again.

    The transaxle is off and the rework begins. I'm noticing a ring of grease around the pressure plate adapter that can't be figured out.
    Nothing to worry about, but it's very odd. The fork seems like it's fine which is great news considering all the issues some people
    have reported with over-extending the clutch pedal.


    I did a quick bleed on the slave and I was expecting to see a bunch of bubbles because of the inverted bleeder location. Maybe I haven't
    purged enough to see air escaping? After a bit of a lay-off, it's nice to be knee deep in tools again.

    The transaxle is off and the rework begins. I'm noticing a ring of grease around the pressure plate adapter that can't be figured out.
    Nothing to worry about, but it's very odd. The fork seems like it's fine which is great news considering all the issues some people
    have reported with over-extending the clutch pedal.


    I did a quick bleed on the slave and I was expecting to see a bunch of bubbles because of the inverted bleeder location. Maybe I haven't
    purged enough to see air escaping? It would be luck that it was bled properly the first time around being installed on the transaxle.
    It would be luck that it was bled properly the first time around being installed on the transaxle.

    20160131_193555_resized.jpg

    20160131_193605_resized.jpg


    20160131_193555_resized.jpg
    20160131_193605_resized.jpg
    Last edited by LCD Gauges; 01-31-2016 at 10:54 PM.
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  15. #735
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    With the transmission out, it would be a perfect time to change gearing to drop the highway cruise RPM. I'm getting a few quotes returned
    by Monday, so it's all about the waiting game now.

    The adapter plate needed some modification because of the starter that was installed. I've opened up the area to allow for an OEM style
    starter to be used in the future if needed.

    Having the back end free of obstructions makes it much easier to detail and build up the wheel wells, etc.
    I'd like to add some accents and paint the bare surfaces of the axle hubs to prevent rust. We can't be having nasty looking transaxles
    at this year's car shows!

    Before and after pics of the adapter plate mods:
    gtm5.JPGgtm1.JPGgtm3.JPGgtm4.jpg
    gtm2.jpggtm6.JPG
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  16. #736
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    About ready to button up the adapter plate. I don't recall seeing these scratches on the pressure plate
    before install, but there's no sign of contact in the bell housing. The pattern appears to be perpendicular
    to rotation, which mean I must have dragged the plate along the garage floor?
    closeup_scratches.jpgpressureplate_scratch.JPG

    Going to attempt painting and clearing the hubs to reduce the chance of rust.
    Also found grease all over the brake callipers and wheels.

    The flanges are useless for sealing. Save yourself the headache and upgrade
    these components; there's no hope from what I've seen in other threads as well
    hub_rust2.jpghub_masking.JPG

    adapter_plate.JPG
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  17. #737
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    Do you remember that band Stryper from the 80s? You would think I hired them to paint
    the transaxle, huh?



    I'm liking the starter opening in the adapter plate. Much easier to monitor the
    starter and check clearances. The ability to use virtually any model is on the table also.


    New 0 gauge cable from the starter bolt to the frame should clear up any current
    and future Amerage needs.

    Attached Images Attached Images
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  18. #738
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    The evolution of these valve covers. It wasn't easy taping the stripes with the raised bolt holes, and coil bracket bosses.

    Many imperfections as you can see , but it beats the greasy looking
    original condition.

    I'll be going with a similar paint theme as this GT, which explains the colour pattern on the transaxle hubs.
    Hopefully I don't get too carried away with this idea!




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  19. #739
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    I grabbed a yard of carbon fiber to finish the dash bezel and a bunch of other accessories around the car.

    This video shows some great techniques for 'skinning' parts.
    Hope to have this figured out soon and upload pictures.

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  20. #740
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    This project is really coming along. Can't wait to get some definitive road and track testing done this year!

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  21. #741
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    It’s GTM season again! Our local car club started up last week and it was a killer turn out.
    This year should be more fun as it will be my first time joining the cruise portion instead
    just the car show.

    Here’s a link to some photos and a 360 degree video:
    https://360fly.com/videos/tgucLxL8uzKj5riY8p36TL/
    https://m.facebook.com/dbphoto87/pho...oup_highlights
    I’m about to try my first carbon fiber skinning of the LCD bezel. This ‘fabric’ is very difficult
    to tame and it splits apart very easily. You can see the green tape on the edges holding
    the fibers together until I’m ready to apply the resin.
    20160421_222316.jpg
    Maybe…just maybe I’ll get it right on the first shot. The picture looks bad as the carbon
    fiber is laying over the bezel without being stretched or ‘glued’ down. Wish me luck!

    Anodized AL. Much better!
    20160131_154144.jpg20160418_200119.jpg
    Last edited by LCD Gauges; 04-22-2016 at 10:28 AM.
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  22. #742
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    Got a little hack-happy today and split the hatch apart. If all goes well,
    I'll be able to correct the flexing on the tail end of the hatch with respect
    to the body.

    GTM_hatch_cut.jpg
    I'm not sure if' I'll use fasteners, or hinge the back section? Either way,
    the Gen2 inspiration is a nice touch. The plan is to install linear actuators
    to raise and lower the glass.


    The gas shocks really make it difficult to keep the gap spacing equal
    and line up the edges. This seems even more apparent with the hood
    and door shocks as they have more pressure.




    GTM_Hatch1_hinge.jpgGTM_Hatch2_hinge.jpg




    The yellow bracket is for my accelerator linkage. It was
    very sloppy feeling with my previous attempt. What started
    as some scrap L-bracket aluminum has come a long way!


    Tomorrow I hope to have the LCD bezel finished. The carbon
    fiber resin is drying for the night. What a PITA to keep the
    pattern aligned!
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  23. #743
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    The jury is still out on the linear actuator. It's pretty slow moving at 30 seconds to open. It solves some problems, but creates other issues.

    With a split hatch it's not so bad if the L.A. fails, or the car loses power; I can easily reach under to undo the bolts. Seems like more
    "show" than "go" if you know what I mean?

    https://youtu.be/Uv-pXi1SfPI
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  24. #744
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    The jury is still out on the linear actuator. It's pretty slow moving at 30 seconds to open. It solves some problems, but creates other issues.

    With a split hatch it's not so bad if the L.A. fails, or the car loses power; I can easily reach under to undo the bolts. Seems like more
    "show" than "go" if you know what I mean?

    https://youtu.be/Uv-pXi1SfPI

    The bezel is coming along nicely for my first try. The lower rail and
    edges still need to be glued. Hopefully it will improve with a few coats of clear.
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  25. #745
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    Adding heat vents to the rear hatch lid and backup camera mount.

    Don't mind the spacing around the mufflers and body, it's all sitting there for mock up.

    I think a one inch round glass with rubber trim will clean up the camera bore nicely if I can source it;
    otherwise poly will do the trick.

    20160427_204150_resized_1.jpg20160427_204203_resized_1.jpg
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    Love the updates, that L.A. Is really cool, yeah it's a little slow but it gives it a sense of dramatic presentation lol keep the updates coming, can't wait to see the finished product on the lcd gauges!

  27. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by tucker298 View Post
    Love the updates, that L.A. Is really cool, yeah it's a little slow but it gives it a sense of dramatic presentation lol keep the updates coming, can't wait to see the finished product on the lcd gauges!
    Thanks very much. The LA is a bit faster with a DC source and now there is one on each side of the glass.

    The carbon fibre skinning turned out kinda blah. It needs more buffing and layers of clear. Definitely better
    than plain aluminum, but more work will be required to make it look 'pro'.


    20160508_013310.jpg20160509_002904.jpg20160509_003110.jpg
    The catch cans and spoiler are mounted. I think it's a done deal aside from a good
    cleaning. I even got rid of that red-neck plate cover for a CF version.
    20160510_142628.jpgrearplate.jpg
    Custom LCD Gauges , Data Loggers, Control Touch Screens
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  28. #748
    LCD Gauges's Avatar
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    Last month I was at a car show with the GTM and ended up getting stranded because the electric water pump failed. It ended up
    pulling down the power bus which powered the dash, console lights, and water pump. I knew things were bad when the cabin went
    dark because the pump is on the same circuit.

    gtm_day.jpggtm_night.jpgtow.jpg



    This evening I swapped the water pump and checked the electrical between the new and old unit. The faulty unit measured
    3.4 ohms of DC resistance compared to 8.8 ohms for the replacement pump.

    I have no solid explanation as to why/how the dash went dark, but my best theory is the ground on the IGN2 bus was above
    0 volts and caused the relays to "open".

    The visual inspection shows no reason why the pump stopped working; I'm not very confident using the same product knowing
    it only lasted about 500 KMs, however reworking the cooling system is not an easy task. Luckily it was a ten minute swap and
    the car should be back on the road this weekend.

    20160605_184235.jpg20160605_184240 copy.jpg20160605_193816.jpg

    I have a bunch of photos from the car show on my FB page. Feel free to browse. A photographer was nice enough to take
    a high res. photo of my car and upload to his page.

    CAR pics

    gtm_show.jpg
    Last edited by LCD Gauges; 06-05-2016 at 09:59 PM.
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  29. #749
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    Front end mod for this Fall, and finally paint?

    A little Modena influence perhaps?
    gtm_front4.jpg
    Custom LCD Gauges , Data Loggers, Control Touch Screens
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  30. #750
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    I think that you should change the front...... but of course I am a little bias.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Cheers,
    Dave

    GTM # 294 Build Start Date 10/12/2009,
    2000 C5 Donor, LS-1 Twin Turbo, AC/Heat, G50-20.02 6 speed, Brandwood Cable shifter
    Build site. http://s679.photobucket.com/albums/vv153/dfraser/

  31. #751
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fraser D View Post
    I think that you should change the front...... but of course I am a little bias.
    It has crossed my mind as the passenger side hood does not align woth the cowl or fender / wheel arc.

    We shall see!
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  32. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procision-Auto View Post
    It has crossed my mind as the passenger side hood does not align woth the cowl or fender / wheel arc.

    We shall see!
    more info on your gauge cluster!
    love to see this working and would love to buy one from you if possible

  33. #753
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    Thanks for your interest. I'm currently designing circuit boards for the system which will need testing before anything gets sold. This
    should have been ready for late Spring, however I've had family commitments which needed attention.

    I am hoping to receive the circuit boards by mid September and have them tested by end of September.

    Until then, you can get more info and video here:
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ease-amp-Promo!

    If you have any questions send me a message or reply in LCD gauge thread.
    Custom LCD Gauges , Data Loggers, Control Touch Screens
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  34. #754
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    A question for those using the C5 fuel tanks with the FFR suggested cross-over.

    When the tanks are over 50% full, do you experience a lag in fuel transfer to the opposite tank when filling from a station pump?

    The fuel will pool in the fill tube and I have to wait for it to drain down and balance.

    Is anyone else having this issue?

    This is obviously due to the position of the cross-over hose at the bottom of the tanks.* Ideally, the cross-over needs to be placed near the top of the tanks, but we are limited due to engine interference.

    Can anything be done about this aside from installing a transfer pump?

    Do the aluminum tanks exhibit this pooling as well?
    Custom LCD Gauges , Data Loggers, Control Touch Screens
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  35. #755
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    After a few months of testing, the LCD gauges are working well enough to lock in the design.
    I’ll be having circuit boards made to clean things up. I’m also going to try a smaller 8 inch screen.
    The 10.1 inch is really nice, but it requires a bit of rework with the steering column for clearance
    which limits the tilt angle of the steering wheel. Over the Winter I’ll play around with the gauge
    pod and square up the corners to properly fit the bigger screen. The 8 inch tablet can then serve
    as a remote screen.

    It feels like a proud daddy moment to have this LCD gauge project wrap up.
    lcd.jpgLCD2.png

    I’m going to tackle the hood alignment and fitment issue next. I think I’ll take a page out of
    Mike and Dave’s book with a fixed fender and cut out a smaller opening for the hood. What
    are you using for hinges? Hood prop, or smaller gas shocks? I’m leaning toward prop at the
    moment.


    GTM_hood_mod.jpg
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  36. #756
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    The hinges I just made myself and I am just using a prop for now.
    The FF5 struts died so I have just left them off until I have time to spend on it.
    Cheers,
    Dave

    GTM # 294 Build Start Date 10/12/2009,
    2000 C5 Donor, LS-1 Twin Turbo, AC/Heat, G50-20.02 6 speed, Brandwood Cable shifter
    Build site. http://s679.photobucket.com/albums/vv153/dfraser/

  37. #757
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    I was thinking of using some tube stock with bushings (similar as bushings on door hinges. Did you make an extension from the rad mount, or use the existing flange? Any photos to share?
    Custom LCD Gauges , Data Loggers, Control Touch Screens
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  38. #758
    Senior Member beeman's Avatar
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    I really liked the function of the trunk hinges on my old 350z roadster, self contained shocks and brought the trunk lid "up and out" rather than just a tilt.
    Look around 1:45 in this video :
    https://youtu.be/dljQS9fCdJ4
    Here's a link to a set on eBay
    http://r.ebay.com/K2UU4k
    MK3.1 2004 Mach 1 donor. ABS, PS, TC.
    GTM #304 LPE 525hp LS3
    2000 C5 Lingenfelter LS1@489hp
    1999 Corvette FRC/Z06 track car

  39. #759
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    Thanks for the link, they are fine looking hinges! I'll have to find a mounting location and then pull the trigger on the order.
    Custom LCD Gauges , Data Loggers, Control Touch Screens
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  40. #760
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    It happened. If finally happened. 5 years later, the sealant finally gave way.

    What is my best option to drain the tank(s)? Disconnect the fuel rail hose, turn on the pump and redirect to some fuel cans?

    I see some aluminum tanks in my future or possible C5 virgin tanks with a dual
    pump setup and NO FREAKIN HOLES IN THE SIDE!

    For me I learned too late, so here's a photo of what you can expect for drilling and using a sealer. It's just a matter of time.
    20160914_200852_2520.jpg

    If you haven't done it, don't do it. There are better ways of connecting the cross-over
    starting with Shanes's product.

    I think I'll cap the passenger tank with an AN fitting to round out the remainder
    of the year, then weigh my options for 2017. It's not like I'll be driving far
    anyway.
    Last edited by LCD Gauges; 09-14-2016 at 08:13 PM.
    Custom LCD Gauges , Data Loggers, Control Touch Screens
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